Prying Thoughts

[WordSword]

The desire to know the truth concerning the concept of whether or not one can lose a redemptive position in the Lord Jesus is clearly the most popular spiritual growth doctrine among the New Testament teachings (which of course is a separate issue concerning receiving salvation). It’s clear that Scripture contains language that can appear to support either concept, and I believe there are two certainties concerning this issue: that only one of these concepts is true; that until the translation of the Church there will always remain believers who will accept one or the other as truth.

It’s been wisely said that asking good questions is key to finding good answers! At present one of my most prying thoughts is why Scripture (primarily in the NT) has been written in a way that often presents significant difficulty in understanding spiritual growth truths due to numerous passages that seem to contradict and conflict with one another, even though we know there is perfect coalescence in thought and practical application within the plenary of “the Word of Truth.”

It’s my belief there are at least two possible reasons answering to this paradoxical situation; for the purpose of requiring Bible-studying believers to maintain an ever-increasing reliance on the Holy Spirit’s instructions for understanding (1Co 2:13); and to learn to exercise respect and kindness to one another amidst the ongoing frustrations that often arise when communicating beliefs with one another. For success here, what we believe to be the truth must be communicated “in love” (Eph 4:15).

Love to one another is the pinnacle goal of all Biblical doctrine, because practical love to God is only apprehended in practical love to others (1Jn 4:20); and God’s love is incomplete in us if we do not desire to love one another (4:12). It is common knowledge that loving God is obeying Him (Jhn 14:15; Jhn 14:21), therefore neighborly love is the primary work that maintains consistent obedience to Him; without which our walk and doctrinal conversation will be unsuccessful concerning spiritual growth.

 

[TibiasDad]

The desire to know the truth concerning the concept of whether or not one can lose a redemptive position in the Lord Jesus is clearly the most popular spiritual growth doctrine among the New Testament teachings (which of course is a separate issue concerning receiving salvation). It’s clear that Scripture contains language that can appear to support either concept, and I believe there are two certainties concerning this issue: that only one of these concepts is true; that until the translation of the Church there will always remain believers who will accept one or the other as truth.

I would agree with this assessment! Eventually we will all know the truth completely, without even having to ask the question! Moreover, those who will be found as being correct will not be able to say "I told you so!" for such gloating will be non-existent in eternity! We will simply be too overwhelmed by joy to have such things matter!

It’s been wisely said that asking good questions is key to finding good answers! At present one of my most prying thoughts is why Scripture (primarily in the NT) has been written in a way that often presents significant difficulty in understanding spiritual growth truths due to numerous passages that seem to contradict and conflict with one another, even though we know there is perfect coalescence in thought and practical application within the plenary of “the Word of Truth.”

It’s my belief there are at least two possible reasons answering to this paradoxical situation; for the purpose of requiring Bible-studying believers to maintain an ever-increasing reliance on the Holy Spirit’s instructions for understanding (1Co 2:13); and to learn to exercise respect and kindness to one another amidst the ongoing frustrations that often arise when communicating beliefs with one another. For success here, what we believe to be the truth must be communicated “in love” (Eph 4:15).

I think asking the right questions is correct, and I think that you've asked a good one. I am not sure, however, that I think God would make things appear contrary for these reasons, though it is not an illogical thought. God is not the author of confusion, and for God to deliberately put such contrary thoughts against each other would be an act of confusion to my mind. I think there is a logically consistent and coherent way to harmonize the appearance of antithetical meanings. The debate is about which explanation best harmonizes these concepts. This certainly does not diminish the validity and need for your two reasons, for they are both wise admonitions and, at times, sorely lacking, and I am as guilty as anyone else!

Love to one another is the pinnacle goal of all Biblical doctrine, because practical love to God is only apprehended in practical love to others (1Jn 4:20); and God’s love is incomplete in us if we do not desire to love one another (4:12). It is common knowledge that loving God is obeying Him (Jhn 14:15; Jhn 14:21), therefore neighborly love is the primary work that maintains consistent obedience to Him; without which our walk and doctrinal conversation will be unsuccessful concerning spiritual growth.

I think the motivation behind what we do is a critical factor! I am not always as pure in my motives as I should be, but my primary reasoning for becoming involved in forum discussions like this was a) to sharpen my own understanding of what and why I believe what I do, and b) to explain the reasons why and how our doctrinal positions effect the way we live our Christian lives, which, in the long run, is the only thing that should be important about theology.

Doug

 

[GDL]

Love to one another is the pinnacle goal of all Biblical doctrine, because practical love to God is only apprehended in practical love to others (1Jn 4:20); and God’s love is incomplete in us if we do not desire to love one another (4:12). It is common knowledge that loving God is obeying Him (Jhn 14:15; Jhn 14:21), therefore neighborly love is the primary work that maintains consistent obedience to Him; without which our walk and doctrinal conversation will be unsuccessful concerning spiritual growth.

I wish it were so simple. But even with love, as with most topics of Scripture, there is more to it than just kindness. Love neighbor as self in Lev19 is written in a couplet that speaks of rebuking a fellow-countryman. Jesus rebuked where rebuke was warranted. The problem with many or most of us is that rebuke becomes a lifestyle done in improper judgement. There are many ways to discuss this, but I'll stick with this for now. As you've also mentioned respect, I will add that this could certainly be a focus for all of us.

If you'll pardon me, I'd also like to comment on your quote:

The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.'" -MJS <><

This saying is certainly respectful to our Lord, but Paul does also speak in the same verse of the life he actively lives. So there is a tension even within the same verse. Our life in Christ is not entirely passive and we are commanded for instance to: NKJ 1 Corinthians 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. And I do see in Scripture that God energizes and enables us to do our part to work with Him as He works in us both to will & do what pleases Him.

I do like how you mentioned coalescence. It seems all these tensions should ultimately coalesce where we'll find the proper I and Christ in me, and we'll come to experientially know more of the mind of the Lord. I think this coalescence likely has to do with what Christ told us about His relationship with our Father - He always does what He sees our Father do & He always says what He hears our Father say, so He perfectly expresses God.

Thanks for your post. I'd truly rather the tension sides more with what you say.

 

[WordSword]

Eventually we will all know the truth completely, without even having to ask the question!

Yes, when faith is no more and the Lord Jesus has come. Truth will no longer be an issue because that's all that will exist on this side of the Lake of Fire.

God is not the author of confusion, and for God to deliberately put such contrary thoughts against each other would be an act of confusion to my mind.

Your example is similar with the use of the passage where this is found (1Co 14:33), but this is in reference to disorder, and not about misunderstanding a doctrine. Until one apprehends sufficient understanding concerning thoughts that seem conflicting, there can be a degree of confusion, which causes truth-seekers to continue seeking truth and thereby exercising patience and faith.

I think there is a logically consistent and coherent way to harmonize the appearance of antithetical meanings. The debate is about which explanation best harmonizes these concepts. This certainly does not diminish the validity and need for your two reasons, for they are both wise admonitions and, at times, sorely lacking, and I am as guilty as anyone else!

I think the motivation behind what we do is a critical factor! I am not always as pure in my motives as I should be, but my primary reasoning for becoming involved in forum discussions like this was a) to sharpen my own understanding of what and why I believe what I do, and b) to explain the reasons why and how our doctrinal positions effect the way we live our Christian lives, which, in the long run, is the only thing that should be important about theology.

Pretty much in agreement here, but it's addressing method of obtaining the truth of a message and not the message itself. I think how we approach seeking truth of Scripture will determine our level of understanding; and our approach is to always desire the right intention. Even though at times our intention may not derive from the new man (as you've indicated), what means the most is our unceasing desire is to have the right intention.

 

[WordSword]

I wish it were so simple.

Hi and always like your manner of expressions! As we all probably wish for easier understanding, we are learning that the lessons in Christianity are often difficult, but never "grievous" (1Jo 5:3), and I think all difficulties for the believer are towards the purpose of exercising faith and patience, while always waiting on God's work in us concerning doing all out of His spiritual love, no longer our natural love. Natural love is limited to how one loves self, but "love one another as I have loved you" is unlimited, it being maintained in us by God's Spirit using the Life of Christ (Col 3:4).

But even with love, as with most topics of Scripture, there is more to it than just kindness.

True, love leads a procession of supporting attributes (2Pe 1:5-7), as exemplified in 1Co 13:4-7), and there will never be anything greater than God's love, for all else will pass away ("fail" 1Co 13:8). There will no longer be a need for "faith and hope" (1Co 13:13).

If you'll pardon me (see what I mean by "your manners"), I'd also like to comment on your quote:

The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.'" -MJS <><

This saying is certainly respectful to our Lord, but Paul does also speak in the same verse of the life he actively lives.

I agree that he means also the life he is living, but it's no longer "I" in his old self but in the new "I" (self). I think Albert Barnes comment would be a better than mine:

"Yet not I" - This is also designed to prevent misapprehension. In the previous clause he had said that he lived, or was actively engaged. But lest this should he misunderstood, and it should be inferred that he meant to say it was by his own energy or powers, he guards it, and says it was not at all from himself. It was by no native tendency; no power of his own; nothing that could be traced to himself. He assumed no credit for any zeal which he had shown in the true life. He was disposed to trace it all to another. He had ample proof in his past experience that there was no tendency in himself to a life of true religion, and he therefore traced it all to another."
Galatians 2 Commentary - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

 

[TibiasDad]

Your example is similar with the use of the passage where this is found (1Co 14:33), but this is in reference to disorder, and not about misunderstanding a doctrine. Until one apprehends sufficient understanding concerning thoughts that seem conflicting, there can be a degree of confusion, which causes truth-seekers to continue seeking truth and thereby exercising patience and faith.

I anticipated that you would respond as you have. Disorder and confusion in worship or disorder and confusion within the body of Christ as a whole is the same thing in principle. God does not have to manufacture tension in the truth that he communicates to us; there is enough of that from the mature of the world after sin!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I think Gill's comment would be a better than mine:

"Yet not I" - This is also designed to prevent misapprehension. In the previous clause he had said that he lived, or was actively engaged. But lest this should he misunderstood, and it should be inferred that he meant to say it was by his own energy or powers, he guards it, and says it was not at all from himself. It was by no native tendency; no power of his own; nothing that could be traced to himself. He assumed no credit for any zeal which he had shown in the true life. He was disposed to trace it all to another. He had ample proof in his past experience that there was no tendency in himself to a life of true religion, and he therefore traced it all to another."
Galatians 2 Commentary - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

FYI, Gill is not Barnes...

Doug

 

[GDL]

"Yet not I" - This is also designed to prevent misapprehension. In the previous clause he had said that he lived, or was actively engaged. But lest this should he misunderstood, and it should be inferred that he meant to say it was by his own energy or powers, he guards it, and says it was not at all from himself. It was by no native tendency; no power of his own; nothing that could be traced to himself. He assumed no credit for any zeal which he had shown in the true life. He was disposed to trace it all to another. He had ample proof in his past experience that there was no tendency in himself to a life of true religion, and he therefore traced it all to another."

Agreed. There's no way we live Christ apart from Christ & our Father & His Spirit. And I find Paul's wording in Gal2:20 interesting: and what [thing] I now live... - so he seems to be summing up this entire new existence - new form of life we now have in Christ & Christ in us.

I also have found myself taking all these genitive constructions re: faith & Christ to be referring to His faith. Youngs translation picks this up. NET goes to His faithfulness. I've seen much evidence that it means His Faith working in us as He abides in us. Paul proceeds to then speak of righteousness and then perfection.

At the end of all this, there is still the "I" - but we know the "I" is an ever-growing coalescence of I in Him & He in me. Brings this to mind:

NKJ Col. 1:27-29 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

And then the prayer:

NKJ Eph. 3:14-21 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height-- 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. 20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

There's so much more to be discussing than these other silly & aggressive chats re: versions of eternal security. Doug recently expressed how he knew he is secure and why. For this he was pounced on.

Paul was ultimately laboring to get us to the end. I wonder how many truly desire to be presented teleios in Christ Jesus......

 

[WordSword]

God does not have to manufacture tension in the truth that he communicates to us; there is enough of that from the nature of the world after sin!

Hi Brother! True concerning the nature of the world, but difficulties ("tension") often arise from immaturity (in the Word and walk), which God always orchestrates in believers lives to increase our learning of patience and trust in Him and His Word.

 

[WordSword]

FYI, Gill is not Barnes...

Doug

Thanks, and corrected.

 

[GDL]

but difficulties ("tension") often arise from immaturity (in the Word and walk)

A lot of this in existence at this time. Probably always has been the case (Heb5). The raising of nepios to telios is quite the task. Glad He's the Father & Lord. My attempts at spiritual parenting are normally exasperating (as has been my growth!). Have boiled them down to just doing what I can when I can to put forth some accurately interpreted Word to the hearer and deal with the tensions within it as best I've been enlightened to do at that given point. The enlightening is His work. Corporate unity in the faith & knowledge of the Son of God (Eph4) is also His work at His time. Until that time, tensions.

 

[TibiasDad]

Hi Brother! True concerning the nature of the world, but difficulties ("tension") often arise from immaturity (in the Word and walk), which God always orchestrates in believers lives to increase our learning of patience and trust in Him and His Word.

So then, the ones who do not agree with any particular aspect of soteriology are immature?
So Wesley was immature in his faith because he vehemently disagreed with Calvin’s soteriology?

Doug

 

[WordSword]

I also have found myself taking all these genitive constructions re: faith & Christ to be referring to His faith. Youngs translation picks this up. NET goes to His faithfulness. I've seen much evidence that it means His Faith working in us as He abides in us.

I understand your meaning, but I see the Lord Jesus more so as the creator (Author) of saving faith, rather than His in need of walking in it, He being omniscient. You're probably referring to passages like "the faith of Jesus Christ . . . the faith of Christ" (Gal 2:16). To me, "the faith of" is in reference to "the faith from," since one the definitions for "of" means "from." Though He knew what it would be like enduring the infirmities of the mind and body (mental and physical pain), it was no less difficult upon undergoing them.

Doug recently expressed how he knew he is secure and why. For this he was pounced on.

Wondering if you think that whoever you suspect of this did it intentionally.

Paul was ultimately laboring to get us to the end.

Not sure of what you mean by "get to the end." Thanks for all your comments!

 

[WordSword]

A lot of this in existence at this time. Probably always has been the case (Heb5). The raising of nepios to telios is quite the task. Glad He's the Father & Lord. My attempts at spiritual parenting are normally exasperating (as has been my growth!). Have boiled them down to just doing what I can when I can to put forth some accurately interpreted Word to the hearer and deal with the tensions within it as best I've been enlightened to do at that given point. The enlightening is His work. Corporate unity in the faith & knowledge of the Son of God (Eph4) is also His work at His time. Until that time, tensions.

Yes, there will ever be a degree of difficulty in our walk, for the purpose of eventually being alleviated via learning, growing and being encouraged by it all.

 

[WordSword]

Yes, there will ever be a degree of difficulty in our walk, for the purpose of eventually being alleviated via learning, growing and being encouraged by it all.

 

[GDL]

I understand your meaning, but I see the Lord Jesus more so as the creator (Author) of saving faith, rather than His in need of walking in it, He being omniscient. You're probably referring to passages like "the faith of Jesus Christ . . . the faith of Christ" (Gal 2:16). To me, "the faith of" is in reference to "the faith from," since one the definitions for "of" means "from." Though He knew what it would be like enduring the infirmities of the mind and body (mental and physical pain), it was no less difficult upon undergoing them

I see Jesus in His humanity as living in Faith and as Heb5 says learning obedience (Faith & Obedience are at minimum 2 sides of the same coin). Agree He authored (founded) it. He also perfected it (Heb12:2). And the "it" is many times articular - The Faith. He also founded (same word) The Life (Acts3:15) and The Salvation (Heb2:10). And The Faith is said to have been once for all handed over the Holy Ones (Jude1:3).

If He originated it and it was handed over then it is the faith of & the faith from. Some of the translators are using "the faithfulness of" instead of "the faith of." I don't see much difference since Biblical Faith is acted out in faithfulness.

Wondering if you think that whoever you suspect of this did it intentionally.

IMO it is a customary practice along with a lot more disrespect.

Not sure of what you mean by "get to the end."

NKJ Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. (Col. 1:28 NKJ)

One of the several goals of our Salvation (as authored by our Lord Heb2:10).

Thanks for all your comments!

And yours.

 

[WordSword]

I see Jesus in His humanity as living in Faith and as Heb5 says learning obedience (Faith & Obedience are at minimum 2 sides of the same coin). Agree He authored (founded) it. He also perfected it (Heb12:2). And the "it" is many times articular - The Faith. He also founded (same word) The Life (Acts3:15) and The Salvation (Heb2:10). And The Faith is said to have been once for all handed over the Holy Ones (Jude1:3).

If He originated it and it was handed over then it is the faith of & the faith from. Some of the translators are using "the faithfulness of" instead of "the faith of." I don't see much difference since Biblical Faith is acted out in faithfulness.



IMO it is a customary practice along with a lot more disrespect.



NKJ Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. (Col. 1:28 NKJ)

One of the several goals of our Salvation (as authored by our Lord Heb2:10).



And yours.

I see what you mean, and thanks for the replies. God bless!