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Proverbs 30:4 And John 3:13

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In the gospel of John 3:13 we read:

" No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven —the Son of Man."

and in proverts 30:4 we read:

"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"

Is this another proof for Jesus deity? What do you believe?
 

Unix

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30:4 Series of Questions
Agur is a devout worshipper of the God of Israel. This is movingly reflected in his prayer in 30:7–9, but also in the questions he addresses to Ithiel and Ucal (30:4). These suggest that Ithiel and Ucal were among those who professed to have knowledge about what goes on in heaven (where divine beings and gods exist). Solomon himself became enamored of the mythologies and worldviews associated with other gods (1 Kgs 11:1–6). The questions posed by Agur give a rare glimpse into the way those loyal to God in the tradition of Moses challenged the intellectual pretensions of those who embraced these mythologies. The questions Agur poses in his oracle are designed to expose the lack of an empirical basis for knowing what goes on in heaven. Who has gone up to heaven and come down? (30:4a; cf. Deut 30:12). Obviously, no one has. So likewise, the remaining questions are really not answerable. Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know! The expression if you know (30:4d) forms a counterpart to Agur’s claim that knowledge of the Holy One I know in the preceding verse (30:3b, lit.). Agur’s point is that what they do not know (the true name of the one who created all the ends of the earth) is the Holy One, about whom he (Agur) knows, even though he has not learned wisdom in the traditional way.

Miller, John W. (2004). Proverbs. Believers Church Bible Commentary (p. 282). Scottdale, PA: Herald Press.


How amazing that Agur is asking the right question! Thanks for this really good passage, SavedByGrace82! I'm studying Prv too! The similarity to the NT must not be a coincidence.

The denial that anyone has gone up to heaven except the Son of Man is probably aimed at other claims to heavenly revelation. The OT wisdom tradition insists that man cannot know what is in the heavens (Wis 9:16-18, Prv 30:3f, 2 Baruch 3:29).


Jesus’ Qualifications

The main discourses which follow in chapters 3–10 are concerned with Jesus’ qualifications for his function as the agent of God’s final act of redemption, and give an idea of the way in which he performs it.
The Nicodemus discourse of chapter 3 makes the basic point that the act of salvation depends on the initiative of God, and therefore the agent of salvation himself must originate from God. As God’s agent to fulfil his own plan of salvation he was God’s Son given to the world (3:16). The giving of God’s Son surpasses the gift of the Law, because that did not make accessible the image and glory of God, as has been done in Jesus (3:13). Only of him can it be said that The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand’ (3:35). What, then, does Jesus convey which is not available in the Law? The answer is not simply that, as a person, he conveys the knowledge of God in personal terms, but that in his humanity he was lifted up on the cross (3:14). This point will prove to have decisive importance in later chapters.

Lindars, Barnabas (2001). John (p. 78). Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press.
 
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thanks Unix for your post. Another verses come across my mind when I read your post and this verses. John 1:10-12

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


I think its very clear that John discribe Jesus as God of Israel in this verses.
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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John 3:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

This verse speaks of the Holy Spirit of God coming down from heaven. Other men have ascended to heaven but it was only after those men had received the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

We know Jesus the man was born of Mary, but Christ the Son of God (Word of God) came down from heaven above by way of the Holy Spirit.:thumbsup:
 
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I would be hesitant to claim that: in the 66 books of the Bible it's originally detested only in Gn 5:24, 2 Kgs 2 & Dan 12:3. Both the Gn and the 2 Kgs passages, particularly the one about Enoch, are ambiguous.

Gn 5:24 simply says: "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." Where he was taken, the text does not say. Though the bulk of later Jewish and Christian tradition understood this text as ascent to heaven (Charlesworth 1983: 1: 3-315; Tabor 1989), this was not universally the case (compare Heb 11:5, 13-16). The author might have had in mind a journey "Beyond," to some special region on this earth (e.g. "Isles of the Blessed"), as in the cases of Gilgamesh's Utnapishtim or Menelaus in Homer. Such might also be the case with Elijah. Though he is clearly taken from the earthly scene in a chariot of fire that rises to heaven like a whirlwind, the author might well have had in mind his removal or "retirement" to some remote area. If so, "heaven" in this text is equivalent to "sky," and the author does not intend to imply that Elijah joined Yahweh as an immortal in the heavenly court. What makes me think that, is that the Chronicler reports much later that Jehoram, king of Judah, receives a letter written by Elijah (2 Chr 21:12-15).

Other than that it's theology of the Apocypha and Pseudepigrapha, which I would highly question for this topic. Most of the most prominent critical scholars find no support for that theology in the Qumran scrolls when they look at it more closely, as I shall show below.

The rest of this post comes from critical scholars, the heading for this is:

Daniel 12:2–3
is the only clear attestation of a belief in resurrection in the Hebrew Bible. The standard view in ancient Israel was that the dead had a shadowy afterlife in Sheol, where they could not even praise the Lord. Individuals such as Enoch and Elijah could be taken up to God, but their cases were exceptional. There are, however, two strands of thought in the Hebrew Bible that were conducive to belief in resurrection or in meaningful immortality.
One strand is the desire for unbroken enjoyment of the presence of God, which we find in the Psalms. This desire is well expressed in Ps 73:23–26: “I am continually with thee;…and afterward thou wilt receive me to glory…. My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever” (RSV). Similarly, Ps 16:9–10 declares, “Therefore my heart is glad, and my soul rejoices; my body also dwells secure. For thou dost not give me up to Sheol, or let thy godly one see the Pit” (RSV).
The view that passages such as these attest the hope for the “beatific vision” after death has been championed above all by Mitchell Dahood.* Nonetheless, the evidence is ambiguous at best. The Psalmist is primarily concerned with the presence of God in this life, which is an experience that transcends time (compare Ps 84:10: “For a day in your courts is better than a thousand elsewhere” [NRSV]). In poetic language, “everlasting” (נצח; Ps 16:11) may mean only that no end is in view (compare Canticle of Canticles 8:6: “Love is strong as death”). Rescue from Sheol may refer to the postponement of death or may even be a metaphor for rescue from distress.** A somewhat stronger case can be made for immortality in the case of the king, but even there the ambiguity of poetic language remains a problem. Even if such language was originally metaphorical, however, it meant that the notion of immortality was not completely alien to ancient Israel and helped make the eventual emergence of a more literal belief possible.
The second strand is concerned with the restoration of the people of Israel. The most vivid example of resurrection in this context, the valley full of dry bones in Ezekiel 37, is clearly metaphorical (37:11: “these bones are the whole house of Israel”). Hosea 6:2 (“After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him”) is also clearly in the context of national restoration. The speakers are stricken but not dead.*** A more difficult case is presented by Isa 26:19: “Thy dead shall live, their bodies shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy!” This passage is often taken as expressing a hope for the resurrection of individuals, in the context of national restoration. The context, however, involves a contrast between the “other lords” who have ruled over Israel, who are now dead and will not live, and the nation that the Lord has increased (Isa 26:14–15). In this context, Isa 26:19 can be read by analogy with Ezekiel 37: Israel was dead in the Exile, and its restoration is as miraculous as resurrection. In contrast, the power of Babylon is broken and will not be renewed. Isaiah 26:19, then, does not necessarily involve actual resurrection of dead Israelites, and its value as attestation of such a belief is doubtful. Nonetheless, it admitted of interpretation in terms of actual resurrection, and, as we have seen in the Commentary, it provided language for the belief expressed in Daniel 12.
Even if one takes a maximalist view of the evidence for resurrection in the Hebrew Bible, the hope expressed in Daniel 12 was exceptional. At the beginning of the second century B.C.E., Ben Sira wrote that “whether life is for ten or a hundred or a thousand years, there is no inquiry about it in Hades” (Sir 41:4), and that “from the dead, as from one who does not exist, thanksgiving has ceased” (17:28). The pessimistic conclusion of Qôhelet (“all are from the dust and all turn to dust again”) was unimpeachable on grounds of conformity to tradition. Daniel’s use of biblical phraseology, especially from Isaiah, gave the impression of continuity with tradition, but the continuity was with a minority view and involved considerable innovation. No biblical text before Daniel had spoken, even metaphorically, of a double resurrection of the righteous and the wicked and a judgment of the dead.
Daniel was not, however, the first Jewish author to speak of a judgment of the dead. Since the publication of the Aramaic fragments of Enoch in 1976, it is generally recognized that the earliest parts of the Enoch corpus are older than Daniel. 1 Enoch 22 contains a description of the abodes of the spirits of the dead, where they are kept until the day of judgment. The spirits are divided into different chambers.**** In 27:3, Enoch sees the place of judgment, where sinners will be judged “in the days of righteous judgment in the presence of the righteous for all time.”***** This section of 1 Enoch, the Book of the Watchers, is certainly older than Daniel. [...] It is apparent, then, that the belief in resurrection and judgment after death was well established in the apocalyptic circles that produced the Enoch literature in the early second century B.C.E.******
It is beyond doubt that the persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes gave a great boost to the acceptance of the belief in resurrection and judgment after death. The resurrection in Daniel 12 is quite specifically set in this context. Many of the passages in 1 Enoch come from about the same time. The importance of this belief in the Maccabean era is vividly illustrated by the story of the mother and her seven sons in 2 Maccabees 7.******* Yet the belief cannot have arisen purely as a response to that crisis. At least the Book of the Watchers was written before the persecution.
Several factors may have contributed to the development of this belief. Because several of Israel’s neighbors had well-developed doctrines of the afterlife for many centuries before the Jews, it is reasonable to suppose that foreign influence played a part.† Resurrection was an integral part of Zoroastrianism, attested in the Avesta and also by the Greek writer Theopompus. Although Persian influence on the Jewish belief was accepted as obvious by an earlier generation of scholars, the popularity of this view has waned considerably. There is no evidence of Persian motifs in such crucial Jewish passages as Daniel 12 and 1 Enoch 22. At most, the metaphorical use of resurrection for the restoration of the Jewish nation after the Exile (Ezekiel 37; Isaiah 26) may have been prompted indirectly by acquaintance with the Persian belief.
In the case of 1 Enoch 22, it is possible to identify Babylonian (most notably, the location of the abode of the dead inside a mountain) and Greek motifs (most notably the distinctions observed within the abodes of the dead).†† [...]
[...]
The hope for resurrection and judgment of the dead was introduced into Judaism in the context of apocalypticism in the books of Enoch and Daniel and remained a trademark of apocalyptic literature while spreading also to other sectors of Judaism. There was considerable variety in the forms of the belief, and bodily resurrection was not always involved. Jubilees 23:31 promises the righteous that “their bones will rest in the earth and their spirits will increase in joy.” The evidence of Qumran is ambiguous.††† The community was certainly acquainted with the books of Enoch and Daniel and so was familiar with belief in resurrection in some form, but we cannot assume that the Qumran community affirmed every idea that is attested in its library. A possible attestation of physical resurrection is found in 4Q Second Ezekiel, in which the prophecy of the bones is taken to mean that “a great crowd of people shall stand up, and they shall bless Yahweh Sabaoth.” It is uncertain whether this document was composed at Qumran, however, or was merely part of the library, like the Book of Daniel itself.†††† It is also uncertain whether the passage should be understood, like Ezekiel 37, as metaphorical for the restoration of the Jewish people, or whether it refers to the resurrection of individuals. The same uncertainty affects the Aramaic 4QpsDaniel.†††††
A clear reference to resurrection is found in a fragmentary Hebrew text 4Q521, col. 1, line 12, “he will heal the wounded, give life to the dead and announce good tidings to the poor.”†††††† The subject is apparently God.††††††† This fragment, however, can scarcely be taken to establish that the Dead Sea sect believed in resurrection. It is not clear whether it is a sectarian composition at all, as it lacks clear points of contact with other sectarian writings.‡ Even if 4Q521 is accepted as a sectarian document, the evidence for resurrection in the Qumran corpus remains remarkably sparse.‡‡
The belief in retribution after death is firmly embedded in the Qumran Community Rule Serek ha-yaḥad. 1QS 2 prays for שׁלום עולמים for “the men of God’s lot” and consigns the “lot of Belial” to a murky place of everlasting fire (אפלת אשׁ עולמים). 1QS 4:7–8, “everlasting blessing and eternal joy in life without end (חיי נצח), a crown of glory and a garment of majesty in unending light,” is again contrasted with torture by the avenging angels in “the fire of the dark regions” (1QS 4:13).‡‡‡ These formulations do not speak of resurrection, however, and invite comparison with Josephus’s account of the beliefs of the Essenes:
For this teaching is strong among them that bodies are corruptible and their matter is not lasting, but that souls are immortal and continue forever…. Sharing the opinion of the Greeks, they declare that for the good (souls) there is in store a dwelling beyond the ocean…whereas they assign the evil (souls) to a gloomy and tempestuous recess filled with incessant punishments. (Josephus, Jewish War 2.8.11 §154).‡‡‡‡
Josephus has obviously Hellenized the Essenes for his Roman readers, but there is nonetheless a remarkable degree of correspondence between the two accounts.
Some scholars, however, find a belief in bodily resurrection in the scrolls, a view that is in accordance with Hippolytus’s account of the Essenes: Refutatio Omnium Haeresium 9.27. The primary evidence here lies in the Hôdāyôt. 1QH 6:34 declares, in words reminiscent of Daniel, “Hoist a banner, O you who lie in the dust, and raise a standard, worm of dead ones (תולעת מתים)”; again, 1QH 11:12 reads “to raise from the dust a worm of dead ones.” Much depends on the translation of the phrase תולעת מתים. Vermes translates as “bodies gnawed by worms.” Mansoor points to the analogy of the “worm of Jacob, men of Israel” of Isa 41:14 (תולעת יעקב מתי ישׂראל), which designates the subject as lowly but not as dead.‡‡‡‡‡ The word מתי, “men,” however, occurs only in the construct plural in the Hebrew Bible. There can be little doubt that מתים here refers to the dead. Nonetheless, the language of the hymns remains ambiguous.
The problem in interpreting the Hôdāyôt is similar to that posed by the canonical psalms and lies in the nature of poetic language. These hymns speak of the community being exalted to have fellowship with the angels in this life:
I give thanks to you, O Lord, for you have redeemed me from the pit, and from Sheol Abaddon you have lifted me up to an eternal height…to be stationed with the host of the holy ones and to enter into fellowship with the congregation of the children of heaven.‡‡‡‡‡‡
The alleged reference to resurrection in 1QH 11 occurs in the context of thanksgiving to God for having “dealt wondrously with dust,” rather than in the context of future hope. “Lying in the dust” (1QH 4) may correspond to “the pit” (1QH 3) and may also refer to a state in this life, from which members of the community are rescued. It is doubtful, then, whether any of the properly sectarian literature from Qumran speaks of a resurrection of individuals after death, although it clearly envisages eternal life. The fellowship with the angels, which members of the community enjoyed in the present, may be understood as an anticipation of the eschatological state promised to the mas̀kîlîm in Daniel, when they would shine like the stars.
Belief in some form of resurrection was widespread in Judaism by the first century C.E. Even then, however, the form of the resurrected body was controversial. Paul contrasts the spiritual body that is raised with the corruptible, physical body that is buried (1 Cor 15:35–50). In 2 Baruch, at the end of the first century, the visionary asks, “In which shape will the living live in your day?” (49:2) and is told that “they will live in the heights of that world and they will be like the angels and be equal to the stars. And they will be changed into any shape which they wished, from beauty to loveliness, and from light to the splendor of glory” (51:10). The stereotypical assumption that resurrection in a Jewish context was always bodily is in need of considerable qualification.‡‡‡‡‡‡‡

* Dahood, Psalms, 3.xli–lii. Dahood finds this belief in a wide range of passages in the Psalms and wisdom literature. Spronk (Beatific Afterlife), like Dahood, makes extensive use of Ugaritic data but is more restrained; nonetheless, he affirms a hope of beatific afterlife in Psalms 73, 16, and 49 (pp. 315–38). He also allows that Isaiah 53 “gave rise to the hope of some kind of retribution after death” and finds such a hope in the eighth-century inscription of Uriyahu from Khirbet el-Qôm (p. 307).
** In this way, in Psalm 69 the deep waters and the flood are clearly metaphors for shame and reproach. See further Christoph Barth, Die Errettung vom Tode in den individuellen Klage- und Dankliedern des Alten Testaments (Zollikon: Evangelische Verlag, 1947).
*** Hans Walter Wolff, Hosea (Hermeneia; Philadelphia: Fortress, 1974) p. 117: “These verses concern one who has been wounded but is still alive…. A resurrection of the dead is not spoken of.” In contrast, Francis I. Andersen and David Noel Freedman (Hosea [Anchor Bible volume 24; Garden City: Doubleday, 1980] pp. 420–21), while conceding that the usage in Hosea 6 is metaphorical, contend that the metaphor presupposes a belief in resurrection after death. Martin-Achard (From Death to Life, p. 86) also takes Hosea 6 as evidence of belief in resurrection.
**** There is confusion as to whether three or four chambers are envisaged, probably reflecting two different stages of the text. See Wacker, Weltordnung und Gericht, pp. 107–8.
***** Ibid., 234-57. 27:3 Translation from Nickelsburg (2001). 1 Enoch 1st volume (K. Baltzer, Ed.). Hermeneia.
****** "The earliest traditions in the book may predate the Hellenistic period, and the book as a whole was completed by the middle of the third century B.C.E." Nickelsburg. (2001). 1 Enoch 1st volume (K. Baltzer, Ed.). Hermeneia. (p. 7) Minneapolis, MN: Fortress.
******* Kellermann, Auferstanden in den Himmel. The belief is not evidenced in 1 Maccabees [which is a more reliable book than 2 Mc]
† For a review of theories of foreign influence, see Spronk, Beatific Afterlife, pp. 54–65.
†† "the idea that the intermediate state between death and judgment is already the locus of reward and punishment. Here the influence of Greek rather than ancient Near Eastern ideas is most likely evident" Nickelsburg (2001). 1 Enoch 1st volume (K. Baltzer, Ed.). Hermeneia. (p. 304). Minneapolis, MN: Fortress. See also pp. 306-307 commentary on 22:8-13.
††† R. B. Laurin (“The Question of Immortality in the Qumran ‘Hodayot,’” Journal of Semitic Studies volume 3 [1958] pp. 344–55) denied that any form of afterlife was attested in the scrolls. Mathias Delcor (Les Hymnes de Qumrân [Paris: Letouzey and Ané, 1962] pp. 58–62) represents the view that bodily resurrection is envisaged. See the surveys of Nickelsburg, Resurrection, pp. 144–69; Cavallin, Life after Death, pp. 60–72; Hermann Lichtenberger, Studien um Menschenbild in Texten der Qumrangemeinde (Studien zur Umwelt des Neuen Testaments volume 15; Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1980) pp. 219–24; Liliana Rosso Ubigli, “La concezione della vita futura a Qumran,” Rivista biblica volume 30 (1982) pp. 35–49; Jean Duhaime, “La Doctrine des Esséniens de Qumrân sur l’après-mort,” in Guy Couturier, André Charron, and Guy Durand, eds., Essais sur la mort (Héritage et Projet volume 29; Montreal: Fides, 1985) pp. 99–121.
†††† John Strugnell and Devorah Dimant, “4Q Second Ezekiel,” Revue de Qumrân volumes 49–52 (1988) pp. 45–58. The extant copies (4Q385–4Q390) are in Hasmonean and Herodian hands.
††††† Against F. García Martínez, “Notas al Margen,” 200 (= Qumran and Apocalyptic: Studies on the Aramaic Texts from Qumran [Leiden: Brill, 1992] p. 146). The claim that this document refers to resurrection rests on the assumption that the word יקומון in line 39 is used in a technical sense, but this is far from certain. “Those who will rise” are contrasted with “those who will wander in blindness,” not with a group that will be punished after death.
†††††† Emil Puech, “Une apocalypse messianique (4Q521),” Revue de Qumrân volume 15 (1992) pp. 475–522.
††††††† See, however, Robert Eisenman and Michael Wise, The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered (Rockport, MA: Element, 1992) p. 20, who entertain the possibility that the subject is the messiah who is mentioned at the beginning of the fragment. The preceding line is very obscure.
‡ See the report of Geza Vermes, “Qumran Forum Miscellanea I,” Journal of Jewish Studies volume 43 (1992) pp. 303–4, on the seminar at Oxford which found “nothing definitely sectarian” in the document.
‡‡ Emil Puech, “Les Esséniens et la vie future,” Le Monde de la Bible volume 4 (1978) pp. 38–40, presented a French translation of another fragment: “et ils (=ceux qui maudissent) seront pour la mort [lorsque] le Vivificateur [ressus]citera les morts de son peuple” (“and they [those who curse] will be for death [while] the one who gives life will re[vive] the dead of his people”). The passage is from 4Q521 fragments 7+5 column 2:o (see also Florentino García Martínez, “Traditions communes dans Ie IVe Esdras et dans les MSS de Qumrân” Revue de Qumrân volume 15 [1991] p. 300). See now Puech, “Une apocalypse messianique,” p. 501.
‡‡‡ Cf. The Cairo (Geniza text of the) Damascus (Document) 2:5-6
‡‡‡‡ "For their doctrine is this:—That bodies are corruptible, and that the matter they are made of it not permanent; but that the souls are immortal, and continue forever; and that they come out of the most subtle air, and are united to their bodies as in prisons, into which they are drawn by a certain natural enticement;" Josephus, F., & Whiston, W. (1987). The works of Josephus: Complete and unabridged. Peabody: Hendrickson.
‡‡‡‡‡ Menahem Mansoor, The Thanksgiving Hymns (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1961) p. 147.
‡‡‡‡‡‡ 1QH 3:19–23; cf. 1QS 11:7–8. Nickelsburg, Resurrection, pp. 152–56; Heinz-Wolfgang Kuhn, Enderwartung und gegenwärtiges Heil (Studien zur Umwelt des Neuen Testaments volume 4; Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1966) pp. 44–78.
‡‡‡‡‡‡‡ See Nickelsburg, Resurrection, pp. 177–80 (in criticism of Oscar Cullman, “Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead,” in Immortality and Resurrection [Editor: Krister Stendahl; New York: Macmillan, 1965] pp. 9–35).

Collins, J. J., & Collins, A. Y. (1993). Daniel: A commentary on the book of Daniel (F. M. Cross, Ed.). Hermeneia—a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (pp. 394–398). Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press.


The final vision (Daniel 10–12) is shaped like a prophetic commissioning, whose content, however, is a historical review rather than a trip to the heavenly throne room.

Nickelsburg (2001). 1 Enoch 1st volume (K. Baltzer, Ed.). Hermeneia—a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (p. 68). Minneapolis, MN: Fortress.
Other men have ascended to heaven
 
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rdcast

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John 3:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

This verse speaks of the Holy Spirit of God coming down from heaven. Other men have ascended to heaven but it was only after those men had received the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

We know Jesus the man was born of Mary, but Christ the Son of God (Word of God) came down from heaven above by way of the Holy Spirit.:thumbsup:
Does Jesus Christ divide Himself? The answer is no, so when Jesus Christ sends His Holy Spirit as a gift to born-again individuals, how would He accomplish it if He is the Holy Spirit?
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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Inspiritintruth - so you believe that The Son Of Man is The Holy Ghost?

That which is born of flesh is flesh, but that which is born of Spirit is Spirit.

The Son of God (Word of God) was made flesh in the son of man (Jesus) by way of the Holy Spirit.

God is Spirit

God's Word is Spirit

And the Holy Ghost (Comforter) is also Spirit.

These 3 bear witness in heaven, and are One.

But the point I was making in short is this.

Except He (God's Spirit) come down from heaven first into the man, and that man be born again a new man in Christ (the Spirit of God's Son) then that man will not be able to ascend up to heaven.

In order for us to go up, He (the Spirit of God) must first come down into us.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I believe that was the point Jesus was making in John 3:13.:thumbsup:
 
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rdcast

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In the gospel of John 3:13 we read:

" No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven —the Son of Man."
It does highlight the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as transcending Son of Man.
and in proverts 30:4 we read:

"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"

Is this another proof for Jesus deity? What do you believe?
You've found an OT description of the prophesied Messiah being the Son of God.
 
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rdcast

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The Son of God (Word of God) was made flesh in the son of man (Jesus) by way of the Holy Spirit.
Is my mind just not working today? I don't recall where it's described that Jesus Christ was made flesh by way of the Holy Spirit. That sounds like fundamental doctrine. Please point it out.
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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Is my mind just not working today? I don't recall where it's described that Jesus Christ was made flesh by way of the Holy Spirit. That sounds like fundamental doctrine. Please point it out.

Christ is the Son of God, who also is the Word of God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mary concieved by way of the Holy Spirit.
 
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ebedmelech

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In the gospel of John 3:13 we read:

" No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven —the Son of Man."

and in proverts 30:4 we read:

"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"

Is this another proof for Jesus deity? What do you believe?
It absolutely is!

Jesus is even described as "wisdom" in Proverbs 8. Beginning at verse 22 it gets very descriptive that wisdom is Christ and even speaks of His deity...that he is from everlasting.
 
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It absolutely is!

Jesus is even described as "wisdom" in Proverbs 8. Beginning at verse 22 it gets very descriptive that wisdom is Christ and even speaks of His deity...that he is from everlasting.

Hello Ebedmelech - I have heard a very interesting thing about The Wisdom in Proverbs 8 - That Jews in Jesus time believed that the Wisdom was Torah. And then came Jesus and his diciples and said that Jesus was the Wisedom.
 
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ebedmelech

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Again, is there anything like this in Holy Scripture? I think not.
Yes it is. Gabriel informed Joseph of that in Matt 1:20, 21

But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “ Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”


It's also stated in Luke 2:31-35

And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”
34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”

35 The angel answered and said to her,
“ The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

The Holy Spirit was the cause of Mary's miraculous conception.
 
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ebia

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SavedByGrace82 said:
In the gospel of John 3:13 we read:

" No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven —the Son of Man."

and in proverts 30:4 we read:

"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"

Is this another proof for Jesus deity? What do you believe?

How would that be a "proof of deity"?
 
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