Protestants Versus Catholics forum...

[BlalronResurrected]

Now Kirkland, don't be afraid to tell me what you REALLY think about me.

 

[nyj]

Tell us what you think about Catholicism Blalron:

pub65.ezboard.com/fblalro...D=33.topic

I think the Catholic Church is responsible for turning countless millions away from God.

Like I used to tell Ron over at JiL, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck.... quack quack!

 

[Kirkland1244]

Ah yes, JiL. Only board in the world where the word "Quack." could get you banned.

Blaralon would have fit in well there.

Kirk

 

[BlalronResurrected]

Somehow you managed to dig an old thread up on my board. What I've wrote in the past has come back to haunt me.

But, as you have said, what ignorant anti-catholics think doesn't matter, does it? I think the RCC focuses way too much on mary and the saints and not enough on Jesus, and people think all the Catholic stuff is stupid and quit the religion. In that sense, yeah my above quote reflects my opinion.

Maybe you can enlighten me about Catholicism and make me think differently? Who knows.

 

[Wolseley]

There's nothing in their writings about Purgatory, or the Immaculate Conception, or praying to Mary. My opinion (which I know doesn't matter to you guys) is that those things would have been important enough to write about if they were true. Don't you think?

Really??? Hmmm, let's see......

Purgatory:

"We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries." (Tertullian, The Crown, 211 AD.)

"In the same way we too offer prayers to Him for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners. We do not plait a crown, but offer up Christ Who has been sacrificed for our sins; and we therefore propitiate the benevolent God for them as well as ourselves." (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 350 AD.)

"By the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve.....it is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death." (Augustine of Hippo, Sermons, 391 AD.)

The Immaculate Conception:

"You alone, and your Mother, are more beautiful than any others; for there is no blemish in You, nor any stain upon Your Mother." (Ephraim, The Nisibene Hymns, 370 AD.)

"Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." (Ambrose of Milan, On Psalm 118, 387 AD.)

"Today, O Savior, You have given to pious Anne fruitful offspring of her womb, Your Immaculate Mother....O Virgin undefiled, undefiled is your birth." (Andrew of Crete, Homilies, 740 AD.)

Praying to Mary (examples):

"We fly to your patronage, O Holy Mother of God; despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us from all dangers, O ever glorious and blessed Virgin." (Sub Tuum Praesidium, 250 AD.)

"Who loves you is amazed; and who would understand is silent and confused, because he cannot probe the Mother who gave birth in her virginity. If it is too great to be clarified with words, the disputants ought not on that account cross swords with your Son." (Ephraim, Songs of Praise, 306 AD.)

"My Lady, my refuge, life, and help, my armor and my boast, my hope and my strength, grant that I may enjoy the ineffable, inconceivable gifts of your Son, your God and our God. For I know surely that you have power to do as you will, since you are the Mother of the Most High." (Germanus of Constantinople, Synod, 733 AD.)

Keep reading....

Blessings,
---Wols.

 

[BlalronResurrected]

Touche.

 

[BlalronResurrected]

I'm sure Mary must be having a busy time up in heaven, trying to answer all the millions of prayers directed towards her a day by Catholics. Don't you think?

 

[Kirkland1244]

Only a fool would try to apply linear time to Heaven. Time is physically attached to the universe. Time is the fourth dimension of our physical realm, and therefore not attached to Heaven.

Kirk

 

[BlalronResurrected]

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

You can choose to believe what you want. I believe what the Bible says is true. You can go directly to God through Jesus. Jesus is the only intermediary.

I for one wouldn't want to harass those poor saints with prayers day and night. They've done their work on Earth, give them a break. Plus they aren't omniscient or omnipresent like God is.

 

[BlalronResurrected]

You have all surrounded me like a swarm of killer bees. I, a lonely Protestant in a forum filled with Catholics.

I surrender. Not that I admit that I am wrong, only I am bowing out of this discussion, because I am unfairly outnumbered.

 

[Kirkland1244]

You bowed out yesterday, but like a cancer, you just won't stay in remission.

Kirk

 

[Avila]

Blalron:

I'm a convert too. Converted from a fundamentalist, pentecostal/charismatic, virulently anti-catholic to a very conservative catholic - & loving every minute of it! I would recommend reading "Rome Sweet Home" by Scott Hahn. It is very good, and provides scriptural basis for his conversion. It's what "got" me and DH just wanted to explain his faith better! :lol:

RE: "praying to Mary". I doubt that many Catholics truly pray to Mary. There are the few that do, but I think that truly what happens is that we ask Mary to intercede for us. I know I do. I certainly don't "pray" to her; in fact, I almost find the suggestion offensive. Rather, in the same way I ask my friends and family members to be praying for me, I also ask Mary and the saints (both those recognized by the church as "St. XYZ" and also those who haven't been named - such as holy people I know who've passed on) to be praying for me as well. Now, doesn't that sound more reasonable than "praying to Mary or the saints"?

Peace,
Amy

 

[ZooMom]

I'm sure Mary must be having a busy time up in heaven, trying to answer all the millions of prayers directed towards her a day by Catholics. Don't you think?

With God all things are possible. Don't you think?

You have all surrounded me like a swarm of killer bees. I, a lonely Protestant in a forum filled with Catholics.

Hey, you came knocking on our door. Maybe you could go back over your posts and see where you pulled out the guns first.

I surrender. Not that I admit that I am wrong, only I am bowing out of this discussion, because I am unfairly outnumbered.

If you had the truth, it wouldn't matter how many stood against you. But that isn't the point is it? You'd rather have numbers on your side than truth. I don't suppose you've ever protested at other boards about Catholics being 'unfairly outnumbered'.


God bless...


Sandy

 

[VOW52]

I'm a convert, too!!

Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[KC Catholic]

This is one thing I just don't get with the arguement "Jesus only!"

Yes, Jesus saved us..he is the true path to the Father and eternal life. But why does it have to be "Me and Jesus" or "I don't need anyone else - I'm going it alone with Jesus." I know folks do not outwardly say that -but that is the impression I get.

We need our families - both here on earth and our spiritual family in heaven. Those people aren't dead in heaven. They see us, our trials, struggles and battles. They've been where we are right now and they made it through the trials of this world to live in eternity with Christ.

I think we can use all the help we can get. I liken it to standing at the 20 yard line, it's 3rd and long, about 20 seconds left and I need some crowd noise to get me pumped up.

Mary and the Saints and Angels are in the stands cheering us on - and I'm there waving my arms to get them to cheer even louder so the defense (Satan and his minions) can't hear the play being called.

Jesus is calling the play in from the sideline while standing on the bench exorting the crowd to cheer even louder. Mary and the Saints are cheering = intercessory prayer.

I know, its simplistic, silly, corny....just a thought.

I know I can't do this alone, I need my spiritual family's aid to help me through the battle.

 

[nyj]

Blalron stated:

You can choose to believe what you want. I believe what the Bible says is true. You can go directly to God through Jesus. Jesus is the only intermediary.


No one said you cannot go directly to God through Jesus. However, do you ever say the Our Father? That prayer is directly to the Father, you have completely bypassed the Son. Does that mean you have disobeyed the command of Paul to Timothy? Uh oh....

At any rate, prayer to the saints isn't a display of a lack of trust in Jesus... it is a display of a heavenly prayer chain, linking the Church Militant to the Church Triumphant.

I pulled this off of a thread I wrote on FCFC (another gem of a website) to show that there is a difference (a very noticeable and appreciable one) between prayer to God (which we should always do) and prayer to the saints (which is optional).

+++++Begin Post+++++

...if you look at the Hail Mary, and any other Catholic prayer, you'll notice a very distinct difference between prayer to God and prayer to the saints. Allow me to provide as an example, an excerpt from the Litany of Loretto:

Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.
Christ, hear us.
Christ, graciously hear us.

God, the Father of heaven, have mercy on us.
God, the Son, Redeemer of the world, have mercy on us.
God, the Holy Spirit, have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, one God, have mercy on us.

Holy Mary, pray for us.
Holy Mother of God, pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins, pray for us.
Mother of Christ, pray for us.
Mother of divine grace, pray for us.

If you'll notice, whenever we petition God we ask Him for mercy, because He and He alone can grant it. But, when we direct our prayers toward Mary, we simply say "pray for us". We never ask her to save us, we never ask her to have mercy on us, we never ask her to give us grace.

Why?

Because as Catholics, we know she can do none of those things, but we know that she is alive in Christ, and can (and does) pray for us! The Book of Revelation is quite clear on this!

So, you take the end of the Hail Mary and ask us whether it is or isn't Christ-centered and I tell you, it is most distinctly Christ-centered, because we are asking Mary to pray for us. Not to save us, not to have mercy on us, but rather to pray to God on our behalf.

+++++End of Post+++++

I hope that sheds some light on the situation for you.

I for one wouldn't want to harass those poor saints with prayers day and night. They've done their work on Earth, give them a break. Plus they aren't omniscient or omnipresent like God is.

They've done their work on Earth? According to the Book of Revelation, they're still up there praying for us. Matter of fact, they present OUR prayers to God. Hrm, wonder how they got ahold of those!

 

[Habakkuk3]

__________________________________

Maybe you could go back over your posts and see where you pulled out the guns first.
__________________________________


And about that "crowd noise" KC, that's a good image -- you KNOW that if Mary, saints and angels are hollering, that PETER be whooping it up big time -- shoot-- he hardly ever shut up while here on earth, much less now!!

 

[Habakkuk3]

____________________________________________

standing at the 20 yard line, it's 3rd and long, about 20 seconds left
____________________________________________


Sounds like "Hail Mary" time to me!!

(I'll leave yall alone if ya want me to, other wise I gotta practice up fer Christmas --

when I'll go to Mississippi and be out-numbered with muh in-laws --

they be some good Protestant/Catholic jokes evver year

(it's a blast!!)

A forum specially fer fightin' is silly --

anybody fights if they feel provoked --

this is they own place, Blalron

 

[Wolseley]

I'm sure Mary must be having a busy time up in heaven, trying to answer all the millions of prayers directed towards her a day by Catholics. Don't you think?

Not at all. If you set up a nationwide prayer request line, asking people to send in their prayer requests, do you take the seventeen sacks of daily mail containing in excess of five million letters, and pray over each one of them, one at a time? Of course not. You pray over the whole collection once, asking God, Who already knows what's inside each letter, to attend to the needs of the petitioners who sent them. Voila! You just attended to five million petitions all at once. And you're not even the Virgin Mary.

Besides, as Kirk mentioned, there is not such thing as linear time in eternity. Eternity is timeless....that's why it's called eternity.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

You can choose to believe what you want. I believe what the Bible says is true. You can go directly to God through Jesus. Jesus is the only intermediary.

I choose to believe what the Bible teaches, which is that Jesus is the only mediator; but we can have many intercessors.

Protestants always interpret 1 Tim 2:5 the same way: God is up top, and we are on the bottom, and Jesus is the only one who is in-between, taking our requests to God.

The only problem with this is, if it were the actual case, then other Scriptures, such as James 5:16, Col 1:9, and 1 Tim 2:1 and 2:3, where we are invoked to pray for one another become irrelevant; if there is only one mediator, what's the point?

However, if you contrast 1 Tim 2:5 with other Scriptures, such as Heb 12:24, you see that Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. This means that as opposed to the scenario above, the situation is actually the 'tother way around: God is on top, and we are on the bottom, and Jesus is the only one bringing God's new covenant to us.
This fits with the Greek word used in 1 Tim 2:5, mesites, which literally means "a reconciler", such as between two parties....like God and us.

Or in other words, it's not that Jesus, the mediator, is the only one taking our requests to God; it's that Jesus, the mediator, is the only one bringing God's plan of salvation to us. And alongside this, we have millions of other Christians, both in heaven and on earth, who are interceeding for one another. The word for intercession, used in Scriptures like Rom 8:27 and Heb 7:25, is entugchano, or literally, to "intreat". Besides, if Jesus is the only one who interceeds for us, what do you make of verses like Rom 8:26, where Paul says the Holy Spirit Himself interceeds for us? (Interestingly enough, this verse uses a different Greek word, a compound of the last one: huperentugchano, meaning "to make intercession for".

You have all surrounded me like a swarm of killer bees. I, a lonely Protestant in a forum filled with Catholics.

I surrender. Not that I admit that I am wrong, only I am bowing out of this discussion, because I am unfairly outnumbered.

It's not supposed to be a "gang up on" contest, Blalron. You posted views which are erroneous from the Catholic interpretation, and the Catholics here are trying to give you the way we see it as opposed to how you see it. It's give-and-take, and at the end of the day, what we are hoping for is that you can say, "Yes, I understand why you hold that viewpoint. I don't agree with it, but I can see how you reached it. I can see how Scripture might be interpreted that way. It's not how I would interpret it, but I can see how it can be interpreted that way." If you're looking to learn about the Catholic Faith and are uncomfortable with talking to a priest or a catechist from a local parish, this, along with various websites and books which have been posted in these forums, are the best way to do it.

I can tell you that I, for one, do not have as my primary purpose or goal to drive you out of this forum. My primary goal is correct the misinterpretations you hold about the Catholic Faith. You ask questions, you get answers. You don't have to agree with the answers, but as the Man said, "Ask, and ye shall receive; seek, and ye shall find."

Blessings,
---Wols.

 

[Avila]

I think we can use all the help we can get. I liken it to standing at the 20 yard line, it's 3rd and long, about 20 seconds left and I need some crowd noise to get me pumped up.

Mary and the Saints and Angels are in the stands cheering us on - and I'm there waving my arms to get them to cheer even louder so the defense (Satan and his minions) can't hear the play being called.

Jesus is calling the play in from the sideline while standing on the bench exorting the crowd to cheer even louder. Mary and the Saints are cheering = intercessory prayer.

I know, its simplistic, silly, corny....just a thought.

No, it's not silly at all. In fact, I love it!!!!!