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Featured Protestant reformers reform what?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mathinspiration, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. SteveIndy

    SteveIndy IndyWatchman.com Supporter

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    Was that the goal of Christ to conquer the world or to transform nations? It is so disappointing to hear Protestants express so little faith and trust in the One they claim to follow. The Turks are no threat to true followers of Christ. With all the preaching and writing of Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin they have failed to grasp the essence of overcoming evil with good and continue to follow the attitudes of the world rather than Jesus.

    The best witness to the Anabaptist was one of their persecutors Heinrich Bullinger, Zwingli's successor in Zurich, whose life-span covers the first fifty years of the history of the Swiss Anabaptists and who knew them so well that he published two extensive treatises against them in 1531 and 1561. According to Bullinger, the Swiss Brethren taught that:

    "One cannot and should not use force to compel anyone to accept the faith, for faith is a free gift of God. It is wrong to compel anyone by force or coercion to embrace the faith, or to put to death anyone for the sake of his erring faith. It is an error that in the church and sword other than that of the divine Word should be used. The secular kingdom should be separated from the church, and no secular ruler should exercise authority in the church. The Lord has commanded simply to preach the Gospel, not to compel anyone by force to accept it. The true church of Christ has the characteristic that it suffers and endures persecution but does not inflict persecution upon anyone."

    All of these thing that were rejected by the Protestants at that time have mostly been accepted now. In the last analysis freedom of religion which the Anabaptist taught and lived is a purely formal concept, barren of real content; it says nothing about the faith or the way of life of those who advocate it, nor does it reveal their goals or program of action. And Anabaptism had not only clearly defined goals but also an action program of definiteness and power. In fact the more intimately one becomes acquainted with this group the more one becomes conscious of the great vision that shaped their course in history and for which they gladly gave their lives.
     
  2. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    Confusion of Law and Gospel.


    You have no right to make other people martyrs for your ideals, no one does.

    Again, you have no right to make other people be martyrs for your ideals.

    Lutherans argued that too, like Casiodoro de Reina. That's not unique to Anabaptists.


    The history is more complicated than that.
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    They say that, but what is the reality? They just restate everything said in the Creeds in their own words.
     
  4. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    SBC includes Particular Baptists like Albert Mohler, whom do not reject creeds or confessions like the London Baptist Confession of Faith (LBCF)....there's actually a "Founders" movement within SBC. So it is a situation of General Baptists and Particular Baptists in the SBC with calls to return to historic roots.
     
  5. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    "Our" colleague.
     
  6. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Al Mohler and I were in the same Sunday School class back in the late 80s, when he was still editor of the SBC newspaper, before going to work at the seminary. His wife was my daughters SS teacher.
    However, your point speaks to the differences that exist even within the SBC alone, much less the rest of the protestant world. How anyone can argue that there are little/no doctrinal differences between groups as diverse as the Restoration Movement and Prosperity Gospel is strange.
     
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  7. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Much of what is called "denominations" amounts to sub-divisions within a broader denomination or fall under the "non-denominational" category which often claim no denomination. Further location also creates sub-divisions.

    For example Presbyterian Churches in America:


    And then there are other Reformed Churches in Eastern Countries, and excluding the orthodox/liberal difference the primary difference is physical location. How can I make the claim? These all have Confessional standards, especially the Westminster standards in common, albeit the liberal sub-divisions may use later revised version(s) of WCF. Nevertheless, these all fall under "Presbyterianism", and at the most count this denomination as two, that is orthodox (traditional) and liberal. I am confident though that in practice, from one congregation to another, the reality is probably often a mix of these two.
     
  8. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    I have seen before counts of denominations that -for some reason- consider churches in different countries to be different denominations. I don't buy that method of counting. That method counts the Orthodox Churches in different countries as different denominations, which is downright silly.

    By different denominations I mean such things as Calvinist Baptist and Free Will Baptist. Those two identities are opposed to each other and consider themselves separate groups entirely.
     
  9. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    :oldthumbsup: Growing up I only ever had access to General Baptist Churches and Pentecostal/Assembly of God Churches. Came to a point many years later of having to examine the faith I grew up with.

    I do not think it is proper to include those clearly preaching a false Gospel among Protestant Christians. For example, the Mormons and JW's are not "Protestants", they teach a false Gospel and therefore cannot be said to be representatives of Christianity. It is also too convenient to lump the prosperity Gospel with Protestants, although I will admit many well meaning Christians have probably for a time fell under the spell of prosperity preachers. Technically a "Protestant" is a Reformation term, and most of what is called "Protestantism" did not exist until hundreds of years after the Reformation.
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    But I was commenting only about the use of the word universal. ;)
     
  11. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    That's not unlike a restorationist argument, not that different from Stone-Campbellites, just couched in eastern religious sentiments.

    We Lutherans are basically western Christians and we can't toss aside the filioque, because we believe it has biblical support, since Christ himself sends the Spirit. But at the same time, we recognized the validity of the eastern version of the creed as well, indeed there are Lutherans that use it (Ukrainian Eastern Rite Lutherans, such as St. Valentine's Fellowship in the Rocky Mountain Synod of the ELCA).
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That's right and, unfortunately, the most-often cited source is that one. That's how people come up with the alleged totals of 33,000 or 40,000 denominations.

    Both of those groupings consider themselves to be Baptists, though.
     
  13. gideon123

    gideon123 Humble Servant of God

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    I think this conversation is missing the point ...

    I did say that the greatest accomplishment of the Reformers was to put the Bible into the hands of the ordinary people. Who can argue with that?

    But the terrible SIN was that wars were fought, people were murdered and slaughtered. All of this happened. It is a very ugly piece of history of the Church. How can anyone claim to be liberating rhe cause of Christ, while they murder their neighbors?

    When did the Church ever apologize for this??? Both Protestants and Catholics. When did they ever atone for these horrendous sins?

    Never.

    So all that blood remains on the head of the Church, Protestant and Catholic, and God has NOT forgotten it. Therefore, long discussions about Baptists, Presbyterians etc. are meaningless. Great sins were committed by both sides, and never acknowledged.
     
  14. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    It (the Filioque) doesn't have enough Biblical support for Lutherans to have devised such a doctrine from Scripture alone. Lutherans use the filioque because they inherited that aspect of Roman theology and because they also used psychological self introspection to define relationships between the Divine persons, much like the Church they were trying to reform. Theology fell to become philosophy for Roman Catholicism and for the reformers alike. Once the logos bias gained the upper hand within the larger segments of the Church, the Schism, and later the Protestant reformation, were inevitable. But I do see why people would think that the filioque has Biblical support, even though they're mistaken.
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That's all beside the point though IMHO. The point was about the Reformers reforming. You think its off topic to address that without also going into certain other matters that you think to be consequences of reform which none of the Reformers wanted.
     
  16. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    Jesus himself says he must go away to send the Holy Spirit and he breaths the Holy Spirit on the disciples, isn't that biblical evidence enough the Son also sends the Spirit?

    We are not philosophers, we just believe in sticking to proclamation using biblical langauge and themes. To denounce us for doing so strikes us as odd, to say the least.
     
  17. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    I don't think so, because sending the Spirit to influence the created cosmos is not the same thing as the Spirit's eternal procession from the Father. God's economic relations with His creation are not equivalent to the relationships of the Divine Persons in Eternity. Developing a model of the Godhead based upon psychological self introspection into a fallen psyche that exists in a fallen order is to create a model of the Godhead that is every bit as fallen, or influenced by the fall, as the fallen human psyche that serves as the model. There is a logos bias in the order of this fallen cosmos, which currently exists as an unnatural condition also within the psyche of man as a result. There is no Logos bias in the Holy Trinity, however, because there is a perfect Tri-unity which has its axis from the Father, and is not dependent upon the Logos. If it were, then Christ would have simply stated that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. But He said the the Spirit proceeds from the Father. The early Church agreed by Ecumenical decree that this was what was to be expressed about the Holy Spirit by the faithful, and they did not permit that it could be allowed to be altered by anyone at anytime afterwards.

    Rome eventually succumbed to fully embrace the logos bias, which heavily influenced both her Trinitarian and her ecclesiological model (i.e. the Pope is now the incarnate Logos - Christ's vicar on earth), and then the reformers took things even further in that unfortunate direction (i.e. the Word/Logos of God - Scripture - is the only teaching authority for the Church.) In both cases the Logos is emphasized over the work of the Holy Spirit (breathing in the Living Tradition of the Body of Christ) in the Church as the preferred source of doctrine and practice.

    The early Church looked more to Holy Tradition and Holy Spirit assisted "conciliation" that this provided. They would never have universally accepted either papal supremacy/infallibility or Sola Scriptura as valid ecclesiological foundations. There's much evidence in the recorded history of Traditional Christian doctrinal controversy resolution that denies that either of the western Church models were that of the Church of the early Christian saints and centuries.
     
  18. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    We never said it was, to my knowledge.

    Woah woah... this just sounds like some Gish Gallup-esque Orthodox anti-western polemic in the guise of serious scholarship.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  19. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    There's been a conflation of these two things, which has contributed a good deal to the thinking that the filioque is Scriptural.



    It's more based on a combination the Orthodox Christian Theological approach with the knowledge of a logos bias in existence in the world of mankind, and how that tendency has shaped the development of the modern world, especially through the historical influence/involvement of Christendom. (Reference: Ian McGilchrist; The Master and His Emissary: the Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World; June 15, 2012)

    I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with my statements. But to claim a lack of any real scholarship on my part is likely to be somewhat inaccurate.
     
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