• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Protestant reformers reform what?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mathinspiration, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    +3,495
    Canada
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    I find the word reform in this context does not relate to legal reform or policy reform but in a sense of changing formation like in team dynamics.

    Since this word would imply that the church would leave to form another church .. it was quite the failure. WAY too many denominations.
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +19,902
    Anglican
    Married
    Its more like correcting abuses or errors. There is nothing implied about a new organization being necessary in order to effect the corrections.
     
  3. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    +3,495
    Canada
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    Ah, so there are so many errors, that we actually need this many denominations ... that's a good point.
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +19,902
    Anglican
    Married
    Did you misunderstand what I wrote, or is this just a case of wanting to reiterate something you wrote before reading my post?
     
  5. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    +3,495
    Canada
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    I get your initial meaning, and then it gave me an inspired idea that I repeated out loud.
     
  6. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

    +3,177
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Sorry brother you lost me in the knowledgeable details, I thought this to be an interesting response though on a period of Church history I know so little about, namely Byzantine. I am only familiar with the small population of Christian Byzantines so far as their involvement with ancient biblical manuscripts and the tedious painstaking scribal work of the textual tradition involved with preserving manuscripts for future generations.
     
  7. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

    +9,310
    United States
    Lutheran
    Legal Union (Other)
    US-Democrat
    Some did, but other bits of that was not universally adopted, at least not right away. Luther actually continued to use Latin for some time, though preaching was in German. And some Lutherans initially did not distribute communion in both kinds.

    A Latin mass actually would be perfectly valid as far as we are concerned. Which is one reason I took issue with some folks in my congregation objecting to a blended Spanish-English liturgy. The synod keeps asking us to try that, but it never works out. So Pr. Falcone has a separate Spanish service on Saturday.

    Up until a few years ago, we actually had a service once a month in German.
     
  8. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

    +9,310
    United States
    Lutheran
    Legal Union (Other)
    US-Democrat
    Yes, lots of good stuff there but the idea that was the "one true church" was more than I could take seriously. That, and the Slavophile love of Russian Orthodoxy was a bit much when you see how much of it is just naked nationalism under all the spiritual gilding now days. If Orthodoxy has an original sin, it's being unable to distinguish nationalism from the Gospel. It's too often, and sadly, articulated in a way that's dripping with xenophobic contempt.

    Watch Zorba the Greek some time to get a clue to this mindset. Beautiful movie, very accurate portrayal of rural Greeks and their attitudes towards non-Orthodox from that time period. They consider us the barbarians, all the while they are living in the ruins of a dead empire.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  9. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    615
    +309
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Or whatever image the Holy Spirit desired in many case.

    When doctrine became the main focus instead of just abuses is when the Holy Spirit really began His work to make known the truth of salvation by grace through a personal faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ without the false dogma of the so called Roman "Church".
    Hardly.

    It didn't start with Martin Luther's objection to indulgences and it didn't end with it. It continues to this day here in the Christian Forums to the extent that the moderators will allow it to proceed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  10. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    +866
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Protestants are just a spin-off of Roman Catholics. There’s really not that big of a difference.
     
  11. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

    +9,310
    United States
    Lutheran
    Legal Union (Other)
    US-Democrat
    A a successful historical phenomenon, it did.
     
  12. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    615
    +309
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I agree.

    But the reformation movement had started long before Martin Luther and it has continued long after him.
     
  13. SteveIndy

    SteveIndy IndyWatchman.com Supporter

    360
    +136
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Martin Luther form his own mouth confessed that the Reformation was a failure. He said he couldn't get enough real Christians together to have a prayer meeting. The real reformers, who get none of the credit, were the Anabaptist. It was the Anabaptist who re-introduced separation of Church and state and believer's baptism. Today they are mocked because of their simple ways and peaceful lifestyle. Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin would have us all living under totalitarianism, or worse yet, a church-state alliance that executes non-conformist.
     
  14. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    615
    +309
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I certainly agree with that.

    I clearly remember the event that brought this fact home to me in the late 70's when the "charismatic movement" was in full swing.

    It was when a "charismatic" nun (read - tongue talking nun) was invited to speak at the church I attended and I "protested" like any good Protestant should have. I was pretty much alone in that protest.

    Although I still practice tongues on a personal basis - I am very wary of the wishy washy doctrine of many Pentecostals.
     
  15. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

    +9,310
    United States
    Lutheran
    Legal Union (Other)
    US-Democrat
    Luther also was known to engage in hyperbole.

    The Anabaptists failed to transform Europe. If the pacifism and utopian radicalism of Anabaptism had been successful, it's likely that Europe would have fallen to the Turks, and chances are you and I would be Muslims.
     
  16. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

    +4,277
    Presbyterian
    Single
    You need to look at what really happened. The Reformers didn't do anything that hadn't been done before. Similar efforts were either suppressed or coopted.

    What was different is that the politics had shifted. Governments were no longer willing to enforce conformity with the Catholic Church, or were unable to do so.

    The problem is, the Church had not developed a better way to handle disagreement than suppression. And it had a concept of essential doctrine that seems to bear no relationship to Jesus' own priorities, or even Paul's. The Protestants inherited that. They had no better approach either. So once the lid came off, we didn't just have one but many groups, and they all tried to enforce conformity to their own narrow views, no matter how odd.

    Are we doing any better now? I think the peak of bizarre new theology was the 19th Cent, and also the peak of interdenominational wrangling. Conservative Protestants, with some exceptions, are slowly converging on many points. Mainline Protestants are largely in agreement as well. But we still don't have a real solution.
     
  17. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +1,473
    Christian
    Private
    What made the reformation possible was the printing press (mid 15th century) which was basically the internet of its day, and then the subsequent printed Textus Receptus (early 16th century) that all reformers NT bible are based on, after which the reformation was enviable.
     
  18. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

    +9,310
    United States
    Lutheran
    Legal Union (Other)
    US-Democrat
    Luther and Calvin were both relatively conservative, indeed, too conservative by today's standards, but on the other hand, Europe could have easily fallen to pieces and/or, the Papacy may well have had serious fodder to use against the Reformation, turning the monarchs of France, England, and the Holy Roman Empire against it.

    Henry VIII himself persecuted Protestants, especially Lutherans, his entire life- northern Europe was not all behind the same reformation, that was not yet clear until some time later.

    The example of Michael Servetus in Geneva was a good example of the limits of the new liberty that human beings experienced. Or the persecution of sacramentarians and Anabaptists in Germany. Europe was not yet ready for radical ideas, the social institutions of Europe had not matured, and nation states were still relatively weak. The Church as a powerful social force in society was still holding it all together.
     
  19. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,627
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Our freedoms and modern conveniences are not the glorious freedom of the Children of God talked of in the Gospels. They often lead more people to slavery in sin than to salvation by grace. Just taking this opportunity to point this out.
     
  20. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,627
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Orthodox "self-understanding" is what occurs when the Holy Spirit imparts enough grace to an Orthodox Christian soul for them to see how they are the most woeful of sinners and utterly depending upon God for any goodness at all to dwell in them. This is "Orthodox self-understanding", and it is the gift of God to receive it.

    I don't know what self-understanding it was that you stopped taking seriously, but it wasn't an Orthodox Christian one.
     
Loading...