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Featured Protestant reformers reform what?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mathinspiration, Apr 15, 2019 at 2:30 PM.

  1. mathinspiration

    mathinspiration Member

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    Did they really reform anything?
     
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  2. tampasteve

    tampasteve Messianic and Lutheran Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I am not sure that anyone would seriously debate that the Reformers did, in fact, not reform the church. Their influence even spawned the counter-reformation, which was also arguably very good for the Roman Catholic Church. Many believe that some of the reformers went too far, many others argue that they did not go far enough.

    But there was most certainly a Reformation of the Western Church starting around 1517. Of course there were reform efforts beforehand, but they did not gain enough traction to last past their suppression except for small pockets. There were other reform efforts that stayed within the church, but they were also for different issues and at different time periods.
     
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  3. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    You have to understand, the early calls for reform was nothing new for the church down through history. Governments and religion often fall to corruption and the Christian church, Catholic or otherwise, are not immune. For some reason the Church has always found a way back from the brink, Martin Luther was trying to accomplish exactly that.

    The Reformation reclaimed the Apostolic witness and made the Scriptures available in common languages. That went a long way to ensure that Christians at least knew what the Scriptures taught and were not subject to some ecclesiastical authority simply telling them what it all says.
     
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    At least some people were able to learn to be saved by faith. Maybe only a few,

    but that's all by God's Plan.
     
  5. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there are many reformed churches that have their origin in the European protestant reformation.
     
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Today so many false teachers and false teachings are 'everywhere' deceiving multitudes, it is still only few who are saved, by grace through faith in Jesus, and not
    from the false teachings.
     
  7. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    The Reformation began as a protest (hence protest-ant, protestant) against the abuses of the Roman Church. Those abuses were quite real, and were addressed by the Council of Trent.

    But protestantism eventually snowballed into changes of doctrines among thousands of different competing ideologies, each at odds with and often condemning the others.
     
  8. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Hardly a dozen.
     
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  9. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    Maybe it began as a "reformation", but any claims to have kept that as its goal died when doctrine became the focus, and not abuses. "Reformation" turned into recreation, molding Christianity into whatever image one desired.
     
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  10. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    If the schism of 1054 was a splitting of Christianity- yes, the "protestant reformation" was a complete splintering of the Body of Christ.
     
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  11. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    I can name a dozen off the top of my head. You might want to Google that.
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    OR it was the last chance for it, or the first chance ? TO be free of false traditions/ errant power.
     
  13. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    I am quite sure you are talking about various protestant churches, but I was responding to "thousands of different competing ideologies, each at odds with and often condemning the others"

     
  14. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When you get it right the first time, as the ancient Eastern churches did, you don't have to reform anything.
     
  15. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Practically all basic reformation requirements are applicable to eastern church as to roman church.
     
  16. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    One example of that is the charismatic groups among Pentecostals who teach that if a person does not speak in tongues they are not truly baptized. By teaching that they condemn all the other groups who do not speak in tongues. Then there are "seventh day" groups that claim that going to Church on Sunday is the mark of the beast. Ive seen their billboards. Guess what happens to people who accept that.
     
  17. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    So, you got 2.

    And one of those 2 - SDA - are not a reformation church, they do not have connection to european protestant reformation.

    That leaves you with just 1 branch - charismatism. But charismatic movement is also in the catholic chuch, so again, not so much a protestant thing.
     
  18. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I think the point would be stronger if you did not have to go to the far edges of Protestantism--and much later in time than the start of the Protestant movement--in order to find some examples of what you were looking for. ;) One of the churches you cite here isn't even considered to be Protestant by many classifiers.
     
  19. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Have a blessed Lord's Day!

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    It is a misunderstanding from many that the Reformation was a revival of Christ's Church in the 16th century, as if we had been absent for almost 1500 years. Rather, it was a response to the great departure of doctrinal truths and the ecclesiastical abuses on the laypeople that sparked the Reformation (and those before Luther). It wasn't impossible for there to have been Catholic Christians, even in Wycliffe's time, but it was reaching the boiling point by that time. God would inevitably bring it about one way or another, even if he didn't use Luther. This explosion of Reformers saw how far Rome fell and the need to return to what they thought was biblical (especially in regard to the gospel).

    The Reformation didn't just begin with Luther and Calvin, and it certainty didn't end there either.
     
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  20. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to have to stop here because I get the idea that you are either not reading what I have written or you are intentionally mischaracterizing what I've had to say.
     
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