Prosperity, wealth and the Gospel

[VOW]

Good point, Droobie!

I'd qualify the "work hard and earn it," though, so the hard work doesn't detract from the worship of God. Certainly all of us know people who are workaholics, who don't have time for family or friends or worship, because they are doing exactly that, working hard.

And of course, the GIVING is as necessary as anything! Jesus told us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison, be comfort to the lonely!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I believe Louis when he says the man he knows in the wheelchair feels he's blessed by his disability.

So do I. I never doubted that he believed that.

Suffering sanctifies some people. Most of us don't have the strength to LET suffering sanctify us.

Well, all this sounds very religious and we have no doubt that some of those suffering really believe that God is somehow using pain, agony, and early death to accomplish something in their lives. People very badly want to see and feel God in their lives; so much so that they will see Him as the source of their problems. Trouble is, this theory detracts from the finished work of Christ on the cross . Jesus has been made unto us justification, redemption, and sanctification. When we say that we are suffering for any of these purposes, we are indirectly saying that His work of redemption was not enough to accomplish these things… and that we have to make up the difference with a little suffering of our own.

God may not INTENTIONALLY inflict the suffering upon us, I don't believe that. However, if we let Him, He can use our suffering for His Glory.

Yes.. by removing it with the words of the Gospel!

I think that is the whole conflict in this thread: humans trying to tell GOD what they want HIM to do, and humans LETTING GOD do what He must.

Actually it is believers taking God at His word. When I say “He has given me all things that pertain to life and godliness” I am just taking Him at His word. When I say “by His stripes we were healed”, I am just obeying His word. I really have no choice but to yield to and become changed by His infallible Word. He said it. We do not have to “tell God to do” what His word says He has already done! Your statement is what debaters call a straw man. I do not see anyone here doing anything close to what you describe.

“ God is not Santa Claus.”

Another straw man. But I, in defense of God would have to say He is much much much better than Santa Claus! Santa did not die for our sins so we could be saved, take our sicknesses so we could have health, or become impoverished with our poverty so that we could have all our needs met. Santa never made thousands of promises to us that we can believe and overcome the world with. Santa did not send his spirit to us to help us every moment of our lives. And Santa did not rise from that dead for our justification, and ascend into heaven to be our defense attorney.

We don't sit in His lap...

I am sorry that you do not have that relationship with the Father. We really should be like John who lay on the Lord’s chest and was comforted in His presence. Religion and tradition is a poor substitute for fellowship with the Father. He loves you!

…and tell Him all the nice things we should be entitled to because we are Christians

Yet another straw man. No one here is doing that. A debate moderator would deduct points from you and decide that you were doing this because you know you have a weak position and to have resort to false accusations to beef up you argument. We are not telling God anything. We are simply taking Him at His word. In fact, He is whispering in our ears all the wonderful things that we are entitled to because of what He has done for us in Christ Jesus. The work of Jesus on the cross has purchased for us wonderful things. Things that the world and religion will never let you know about or have. Most of all freedom to worship Him and praise Him for his bounty and love toward us in Jesus!

Jesus said, "Pick up your cross and follow Me." That Cross is not light, it's not polished, it's not gold-plated. It's heavy, it's dirty, it has splinters, and it's DETESTED by the world.

He said to pick up His cross, but never think that He wants you to hang on it! Your suffering cannot add one iota to the finished work of Christ on the cross! The more you depend on your own suffering, the less you deem the suffering of Jesus. Get rid of all the tradition and religious ideas that satan and the world wants to enslave you with. Jesus did it all for you! He is the author and finisher of our faith.

Re-read the Beatitudes. They are a lesson in humility!

Amen. They are the sack of nails in the coffin of the theory of justification by one’s own works/suffering. They put an end to the notion that we can achieve perfection by our own efforts. “be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect…’. Kind of rains on the parade of anyone who thinks they can achieve or add to that finished work of Christ! Amen!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I'm disappointed at Christians who pray for prosperity and then do nothing expecting God to 'rain money' down on them. They are no better than those who are already rich and 'covet' their wealth.

True… are you referring to anyone specifically? Or are you just speaking generally? Are you implying that I do this? I hope not! I have worked continually for 32 years; many 12 and 16 hour days. I have bought 3 homes put 4 kids through college… etc.. etc… I will put my work record up against anyone on this board or anywhere else. Personally I am disappointed at Christians who, when they cannot offer a logical argument, resort to underhanded accusations and inferences. No one is suggesting that God “rain money down”. But I do say that we can obtain the benefits of the promises of God and that God wants us to do so. I am saying those who suffer in sickness and poverty do so in ignorance of the will and work of God. I am saying that all this suffering and pain does not bring you one inch closer to God. You are brought close to God by the work of Christ and by faith in the promises of God.

Straw men are the children of weak positions… the Word of God stands forever!

 

[LouisBooth]

"If it's such a blessing to be in a wheelchair, then why aren't Christians and even non-christians getting into wheelchairs? "

You're making a false assumption here. I'm in youth ministry and its God's will, so everyone should be in youth ministry? Do you have any idea how bad and faulty your logic is?

""Good things" sure sounds like it includes material things too. "

You're making another jump. It doesn't say material weath. A good gift is joy, love, etc..You're making a false conclusion.

"Sometimes it does! Not "faithful" in a religous way, but "full of faith" in the spiritual way. Again and again Jesus points this out to people who failed to receive healing. They simply did not believe. "

*chuckles* I agree. SOMETIMES. Not all the time. Some people are sick for a reason. It can further the will of God and be a blessing. For example Cory Tin boom thanked God for the flea infesed diseased room she was in, even though it caused he to be sick..because the Nazi guards wouldn't come in there and rape them. That was a blessing from being sick.

"It is unfortunate that this man is in this chair. He may think he is blessed, but if he had run up on Jesus in 31 AD, Jesus would have "unblessed" him by pulling him out of that chair! (Jesus healed all!) And I am sure the man would have rejoiced in it. "

Doubtful. Christ didn't always heal everyone. He has told me himself that he reached more people this way then he could ever have being health. He is thankful.

"It is never the perfect will of God that any of His children suffer in such way. "

I think you need to mature to the point and find out that suffering isn't physical at all. I can have my body be cripped and not suffer at all because the love of God is in my life. It matters not what happens to my body. You need to mature and see that the suffering is spiritual, not physical.

 

[LouisBooth]

"He (like many people in his day and ours) did not have the faith needed to accomplish what he needed"]

Well it seems Paul disagrees with you

"2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. "

Theses books alone (1st and 2nd tim) should prove to you that this doctorine of if you're sick you're not faithful is very very wrong.


"It is not His will that anyone perish. It is His will that heaven be established on the earth in our lives. "

Perish eternally, not on earth. Sorry, sickness has a purpose now in God's plan.

"You need to read your bible. Read Deuteronomy 28. All blessings recorded in the Bible and even those which are not belong to us because of the work of Jesus. He did not leave one out. "

*sigh* you're the one thats not reading. why else do you think Christ said not to worry about material weath where theives break in and mothes eat up? He blesses us with spiritual blessings not physical ones.

"Again, you need to become as well versed in the Bible as you are in "The Hiding Place". Jesus in fact did heal everyone who came to Him in faith . The only recorded instance where He could do no mighty work was when people did not believe. "

I think you haven't read closely enough. There ARE instances where Christ healed some but not all the people that were brought before him.

"Once again... when some people cannot deal with solid arguments they resort to name calling and put downs. That is OK... people want to see God in their lives so they construct all sorts of images to put Him there. I forgive you! "

LOL..name calling? NO, I"m addressing your spiritual immaturity in this issue. You want to be physically blessed thats fine. You store that up and we will see what happens when you get to heaven....

We can also look in 2nd sammuel and see David display a tremendous amount of faith and pleading to God and healing did not come for his child. Also we see that Paul's thorn is a physical thing for he assosates it with other physical "tasks" (hardships, insults, persecutions and difficulties). These are all very physical things.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

"He (like many people in his day and ours) did not have the faith needed to accomplish what he needed"]

Well it seems Paul disagrees with you

Thanks again for the comments! It is great to see you have put a lot of thought into these issues. We will just have to disagree and praise the Lord for those things that we do agree on!
Amen!

 

[TorahsDisciple]

The new money "churches" are completely out of steps with G_D's word.

It never says that we would have any sort of worldy "blessings" in fact it clearly states just the opposite. People need to stop trying to measure G_D by the standards of this fallen world. Material wealth is as far from G_D as one can get.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The new money "churches" are completely out of steps with G_D's word.

I am not sure what a "money church" is, so it is difficult to address what you are referring to.

It never says that we would have any sort of worldy "blessings" in fact it clearly states just the opposite

.

I am not what sure what "IT" is, but if you mean the scriptures, then we can list a few hundred displaying the fact that God knows and cares for our physical needs. The posts above aptly display that.

Mat 6:
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

People need to stop trying to measure G_D by the standards of this fallen world.

I agree. I have no idea who is doing this, but they should stop. But I am not sure how one would do it if they wanted to.

Material wealth is as far from G_D as one can get.

Answer me something... when you get to heaven, you will look down at your feet and at the walls around you. Which of the following will you see:

1.) Clouds, winged creatures playing harps, babies with wings shooting arrorws, and a lady selling Charmin .
2.) A dirt floor and rotten wood walls, starving people covered with pox, death and poverty everywhere, and good pious believers pronouncing how faithful they are to endure it all.
3.) Streets of gold, walls of Gold, people singing praises to God for His goodness and glory. No sickness. No death. No poverty. No sadness, sorrow, or regret.

A substantial number of churchy people will take door #1.
Some on this forum apparently are all geared up for door # 2.
But the correct answer is #3.
Jesus said for us to pray that the will of God be manifest in our lives as it is in heaven. I am not saying we should have gold driveways or jewel studded silver spoons... but we should believe and praise God that our needs are met.

 

[TorahsDisciple]

HOBART

The "streets of gold" thing just further proves how useless and worthless G_D holds the world's material possessions to be. The Blessings of G_D will never be measured in a bank account.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The "streets of gold" thing just further proves how useless and worthless G_D holds the world's material possessions to be.

.


I agree. I have a moderate bank account, and am certainly not obsessed with money. I have found that anti-prosperity people very often are more obsessed with the topic than those who are satisfied with their needs being met.
I would probably never even bring it up if they did not constantly try to remove this blessing from the people of God. Many people really need to hear the message that God cares for them and wants them to have their needs met.

The Blessings of G_D will never be measured in a bank account

I have never met anyone who holds this position... but if someone does, they are certainly wrong.
But let us also remember that poverty also is not a measure of the blessings of God. Poverty does not increase ones stature with God one iota. Our righteousness is established and perfected in Jesus Christ. That is true regardless of the condition of your bank account.

 

[Droobie]

God wants us to prosper exceedingly, abundantly, and above all that we can imagine. We just have to understand how we can be blessed in our lives. Not just with finances, but with our compassion, our health, or relationships, our employment, our ministries... the list goes on.

In the case of finances, we need to realise that blessing is not a one way street. Actually, come to think of it, it is a one way street... but it's NOT a street with a dead end! We don't pray for material wealth to be blessed, we pray for material wealth to be a BLESSING !

Some people think that teaching prosperity starts with a prayer for wealth and that's it! God will 'rain' money down on you, and you will get rich. No no no NO! Like the one way street, if you have a dead end with no where for the cars to go, God is not going to direct traffic through to you.

By giving, you start the flow. As you give, God will give to you. Also we are to be good stewards with what we have. Invest wisely. To keep up the one way street analogy, maintain that street well. Keep it clean, make sure the lanes are marked well, and all the signs are clear. Make sure cars that park in your street don't stay there for too long.

 

[Carlitos]

I have worked continually for 32 years; many 12 and 16 hour days. I have bought 3 homes put 4 kids through college… etc.. etc… I will put my work record up against anyone on this board or anywhere else.

Funny, yet sad how much pride stalks at every corner of this world. How can anyone possibly believe that long hours at work, nice clothes, or having raised prosperous kids will get Jesus to save him or her? The only one you need to put you work record up against is God, and then you will fall short by so much that you might as well have spent your entire life eating cheese puffs and playing video games. You cannot possibly come to understand just how great is His might and power. Nobody can. Don't you know how puny and insignificant you are compared to Him? Why would you need to look to other men and see how many houses THEY'VE bought?

The place in the scripture escapes me now (if anyone could tell me, PLEASE DO - and please correct me if my recalling of it is innacurate), but somewhere in the Bible there is a passage where someone who lived a good life is compared to a tax collector. It is explained that the first man is looked down upon by God because he spoke about how good he was and was prideful about the way he treated his faith and his life altogether. On the other hand, the tax collector, since he was HUMBLE and repented for what he had done even though he his past was sinful, would enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Andrew]

quote from Carlitos:
"Funny, yet sad how much pride stalks at every corner of this world. How can anyone possibly believe that long hours at work, nice clothes, or having raised prosperous kids will get Jesus to save him or her? "

you've misunderstood what Hobart was trying to say. He was simply responding to someone's statement that Christians who pray for God to prosper them dont work hard or work at all. That's just rubbish. Personally, I dont know of any prospering Christian who doesnt work, do you?
-----------
quote: "We don't sit in His lap..."

that's really sad, if you as God's child can't or wont' call God, "Daddy God", for that's what "ABBA FATHER!" means. My Pastor was in Israel once and he saw this little kid running around and calling his father "Abba! Abba! Abba!". its the same as "papa" -- plosives formed by the lips that are easy for any toddler to pronounce.

God did not give us a spirit of bondage again to fear (religiousity and a distant fearsome God) but a Spirit by which we can call ABBA FATHER! Papa GOD!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Funny, yet sad how much pride stalks at every corner of this world. How can anyone possibly believe that long hours at work, nice clothes, or having raised prosperous kids will get Jesus to save him or her?

Thanks for your comments Carlitos.
I think that you just came in towards the end of the discussion and perhaps do not understand what was being alledged. Someone had implied that people who believe in propsperity are all lazy, never work, and just want God to "rain money down from heaven." I was simply responding to that statement. I should have know better to respond to a personal attack... that never works because they will just come up with another one.
But these two seeming opposite arguments presented by those opposed to propserity display something significant about their position. That is: they really don't have a position. Not a logical one that is. I have one group saving that I am wrong because I am lazy and do not work, and when that does not pan out, another chimes in and says that because I have worked hard all my life that I am proud and looked down on my God!!! IOWs you are just kindda pulling arguments out of your hats as we go along. You are responding emotionally on a personal level instead of objectively on a logical level. You make allegations again people's motivations who you do not know, whose heart and faith you have absolutely no way of knowing. You cannot see the heart of these people who, for all you know, love God and are just obeying His Word. I would ask the moderators to try and deal with this... but some of them are actually engaged in the activity!

The place in the scripture escapes me now (if anyone could tell me, PLEASE DO -

Try the story of Nabal and David in 1 Sam 25.


But the truth is, God loves us rich or poor, sick or well. That is the good news. Jesus and the gospel is the manifestation of that love. Praise His Name!

 

[Droobie]

Goodness me! I do have a name people (Hobart and Andrew I'm talking to you two)! And yes you can quote me directly... that's what a forum is all about.

Please let us clear the air here. No, I was not talking personally about anyone in particular. Yes, I was making a general statement; let me explain that I was not talking about 'all' christians who pray for prosperity, for I myself do. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer to mean that 'some' christians who would pray for prosperity, but do nothing to bring it about are no better than those who covet wealth. If you read back on what I posted, I do advocate those who WORK HONESTLY and HARD for their finances. I was speaking of those Christians who may think otherwise (not all Christians mind you) and those Christians (not all Christians) who think they think that way.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Please let us clear the air here. No, I was not talking personally about anyone in particular. Yes, I was making a general statement;

Thank you for clearing the air. Let me also say that I did not have you specifically in mind. In fact I had to go back and find the post to see who and what was being referred to.

let me explain that I was not talking about 'all' christians who pray for prosperity, for I myself do. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer to mean that 'some' christians who would pray for prosperity, but do nothing to bring it about are no better than those who covet wealth.

That is true.. but I know no-one who does this. I imagine it is certainly possible. Even so, the problem there is not one of the supply/supplier but the motivation in the asker. The fact that the motivation of such a person is wrong does not negate the promise. One of the chief argurments of anti-christian is that all we are after is the [GLOW=skyblue] pie in the sky [/GLOW] . I suppose there may be those out there whose only motivation is to get to heaven... with no love for God or their fellow man. But that possiblity does not negate the work or will of God.

If you read back on what I posted, I do advocate those who WORK HONESTLY and HARD for their finances. I was speaking of those Christians who may think otherwise (not all Christians mind you) and those Christians (not all Christians) who think they think that way.

Outstanding, and of course that goes for those who believe in prosperity and those who do not. Some of the worse coveters are those who are poor as church mice (mouses?).

 

[TruelightUK]

And yet, through the centuries (including the first!), there have been many Christians who did not enjoy the obvious trappings of 'financial prosperity' - thus the need for others (who did) to sell their possessions and share with others, give to the poor, feed widows etc. etc.

Like Paul, rather than resenting humble circumstances and confessing our way into luxury and riches, perhaps we need to cultivate the practice of 'godliness with contentment', 'giving thanks in all circumstances', accepting dearth or abundance with equinimity and hearts rejoicing in God!

Anthony

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by hobart schmedly

Why do you assume that these people have neglected seeking the Kingdom of God? They are in fact trusting Him to provide that which is needful in this life. In fact, it says that these things would be added unto those who do. Why not just assume that they have fulfilled the seeking part and are now reaping the benefits just as Jesus said they would?

Because, after about 10 years around 'Name it and Claim it' churches, I observed a great many people who were clearly motivated by how much money they could get out of the Kingdom, rather than any genuine desire to further that Kingdom by sacrificially giving themselves for others. Who got really excited when the preacher told them to confess that God would heap riches upon them - but kept very quiet when someone was needed to visit the local prison, or deliver soup to kids sleeping rough on the streets. You get the picture?

Why do you assume that their hearts are not set on heavenly matters? You are making a lot of judgemental assumptions about these folks who you do not even know.

See above - I am drawing conclusions on the basis of folk I do know (not all of whom are actually that rich - some just see religion of a means of getting that way, and give up when it doesn't work). I am quite happy to rejoice in the fact that there are some folk who genuinely work hard for the Kingdom, give selflessly to others, and take no thought for what's in it for them - and whom God rewards, both spiritually and materially. But not many of them live in mansions, drive limousines (with a second in the garage) and go around 'naming and claiming' more money in their offshore bank accounts. And, strangely, I see more of the latter in mainline churches than in 'Faith' churches!

Anthony

 

[Carlitos]

Hobart:
You know, you're right. I shouldn't have made that judgement about you like that. I'm right with you on that hard work and honesty are great. It was just the way you came off to me that moved me to post that reply. In my life, I've met so many arrogant and prideful people that I've just come to assume that anyone who talks in such a way is one of them. I don't know anything about the way you live or about your walk with God, so I apologize for being so judgemental.

Thanks for clearing me up with that scripture

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by hobart schmedly

It is really not a matter of luxury.

Tho' the lifestyle of certain prominent Faith preachers would suggest otherwise!

I believe in needs being met by the provision He has provided.

So do I - but I suspect our definitoion of 'needs' might be very different!

"Luxury" is a matter of degree. People living in the poorest slum in America are in much better shape than the poor of Africa and Asia. The American slum is a relative "lap of luxury" to the poor in these places.

Absolutely - have you read my thread about the Global Village?

And there again, the average middle American suburban home is a relative 'lap of luxury' to their 'trailer trash' neighbours - and the designer homes of varuious high profile preachers is a definit 'lap of luxury' when compared to the whole lot of them!
One of my questions would be what degree of relative luxury is actually morally justifiable in view of the absolute poverty of the majority of the Third World - and the relative poverty of most in our own nations?

I am sure those who preach poverty as the will of God for His people..

An equal and opposite error to the 'wealth gospel'!

..have never lived in true poverty themselves or they would not advocate it so strongly.

You may be right - or you may be just making assumptions!

I have seen my children hungry and poorly clothed, and this is no blessing...

Absolutely - and no-one here is suggesting that it is! I myself have clearly stated (not sure if it was in this thread or another similar one) that we have a responsibility to provide for our own families - but I would quibble with many in the West as to what it responsible provision, and what is simply greed and over-indugence!

What loving earthly father would place sickness, or will sickness on his children? What loving earthly father would will poverty on his own children? None that I know of. No sane one anyway.

Hey, you mean we do actually read the same Bible!?!

There again, what sane, loving earthly father would indulge his kids to the extent that they become totally 'spoiled' - complacent in the knowledge that they only have to click their fingers and every health-endangering goodie will come floating their way!

Actually, in this day and age, far too many - but then are they really as sane and loving as they would like to think?

Anthony

PS I don't think you've yet provided the contextual evidence I asked for of NT examples of poor Christians being encouraged to pray for / confess material blessings.