Prophets?

[Boidae]

It's possible. Give the mercy you want because that is what you'll get.



My whole point is that you can misinterpret symbolic revelation. I hear prophets talk about it where they made mistakes. If the mistake was that she would be pregnant with (2) twins within 2 years (entirely possible since your wife's period won't last 3 months - right?

Since you don't know if it was misunderstood, to take a hard line on it is unwise. Especially since you're wanting God to give you children, and you are outspoken about it.



EVERYONE has to have their words judged (weighed for truth) (by the Spirit). That includes anyone in the five fold ministry. That is not the problem. The problem is when you label them "false" because they may have been mistaken. Now you are the one in the position of wanting to receive from God. Your job is to remain humble and expectant.

Even if they were flat wrong or even heard the wrong spirit, to label them "false" is harsh and they are no different from you (who also makes mistakes).

It always boils down to your heart condition. What you say and if you judge God's servants. I'm not talking about judging their words, I'm talking about judging His servants.

Sound reasonable, or will you be like the many on this forum who hold fast their right to render judgment on the person and their heart condition?




Something to repent of!

What I have to remember is that you were not in the same church that I was. Preying on people's emotions was common within that church.

He had lost a whole congregation, except for 5 people because of the false things that he said.

I will stand by my words that there is nothing to repent of. He was wrong, we were preyed upon, plain and simple. It happened in that church all the time, however he's a good showman and theatrical and there are people who will listen when they are told never to question a pastor or prophet. I'm not one of those people.

I finally got my wife out of that church because it was harming her spiritually, and emotionally. I still deal with the aftermath of his false teaching to this day.

 

[Alive_Again]

I don't have a problem questioning the authenticity of anything either. How you do it and what you say reveal the condition of your heart.

I will stand by my words that there is nothing to repent of. He was wrong, we were preyed upon, plain and simple.

As I tell anyone who renders a judgment against a person, whether by sinning presumptuously, literally the thoughts and purposes of their heart, if by means of the gift of discernment of spirits (seeing a person's heart condition) or not...

You will one day stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Be sure that you're receiving spiritual sight and not just foolishly making a presumption based on someone's past.

 

[K2K]

I have been reading "thus saith the lord " by John Bevere and I have question .

We have had quite a few so called prophets visit our church and I like everyone else loves hearing the words given.
The problem is the words are more like fortune telling and pleasing the desires of those given words.
There is very little if any correction and warning which seems to be the way prophets in the bible worked.
I have felt a strong presence of God when around them but am wondering if this is some other presence.

Any ideas?

I havn't read the book "thus saith the lord", but main thing all the prophets of the Lord were and are trying to do is get people to listen to Him, the Lord!!

The phrase "thus saith the Lord" is as much an explaination to us the the Lord speaks, as it is anything. The prophets were and are just people like you and me, so if they said, "thus saith the Lord" doesn't it occur to us to ask Him and listen to what He is saying to us???

So if someone is wondering if I have any ideas, they are kind of missing the message. They should be asking the Lord about what ideas He has.

I do have another comment though. At the church I go to, [and I have heard similar things at other churches] people doing ministry at the church are specifically told not to give out certain types of things from the Lord. So if they who the Lord put in charge at that church tell me not to give out certain types of message from the Lord, who is it really that they have rescrited, me or the Lord?

When I took the first ministry class at that class I saw the Holy Spirit, in a vision, sitting next to me with chains around Him. He was thrilled to be there, and gave me a teaching about how Paul was thrilled to be in chains when they took him before Festus. Though he was bound up, Paul still got a chance to speak at times.

We in the church often put restrictions on the Holy Spirit, as to what He can say and not say at church. He likes any opportunity to speak, but indeed we do bind Him up by saying that He can only tell us what we want to hear.

So it sounds like the presence of the Holy Spirit that was being felt, but anyone can go to the Holy Spirit and ask Him to be sure!!

 

[whatfor]

I am skeptical as well of self proclaimed prophets and apostles.

Want me to really throw a monkey wrench into things? I know many do not believe in female church leadership, but when we were going to my wife's old church there was a self proclaimed apostle and it was a woman.

The prophets and pastors that have given us words, such as we will have two children within two years have all turned out to be false. They were just preying on our emotions for whatever reason knowing that my wife and I want to have children. The two years will be up in 3 months. My wife isn't pregnant and there is a 9 month gestation period and the word was that they will be born in two years.

Based on what I read in the book it sounds like the prophet was not preying on your emotions but thought they were hearing from God.
Unfortunately they are reading your desires and not hearing from God.
Most words I have heard given seem to fit this model, the prophet is reading the persons desires and they think God is giving them what they prayed for when it is not His plan for that person.

 

[New_Wineskin]

The phrase "thus saith the Lord" is as much an explaination to us the the Lord speaks, as it is anything. The prophets were and are just people like you and me, so if they said, "thus saith the Lord" doesn't it occur to us to ask Him and listen to what He is saying to us???

Since it means to me that the person is putting their own words at the beginning of whatever they may have received , I will listen but with only one ear . They close one of my ears by placing presentation first . If they want to speak in tongues ( ie old English ) , they should do so throughout their "word" and allow for an interpretation in the language that I speak . Don't mix and match languages if you want to be understood .

 

[Alive_Again]

Since it means to me that the person is putting their own words at the beginning of whatever they may have received , I will listen but with only one ear .

A single eye and a single ear. The one prophesying has full control over what they say (typically). They can preface what they are receiving with a vision, a word of knowledge or wisdom, discernment of spirits, etc. as applicable to deliver what they are getting from the Holy Spirit. There is no requirement for them to do it in a "perfect" delivery.

They close one of my ears by placing presentation first . If they want to speak in tongues ( ie old English ) , they should do so throughout their "word" and allow for an interpretation in the language that I speak . Don't mix and match languages if you want to be understood .

I wouldn't close anything based on whatever human element is "added" or perceived to be added because of the servant getting it. God chose that person and it is not up to us to filter it by man's "evil eye" (not going along with God's plan). You'd do yourself a favor to ask God to help you get over this.

Also, it's all about flow and sometimes you'll speak in the Spirit (in tongues) more and it gets the flow going. Man is a receiver and things like the environment or even him or herself can get in the way potentially. Your part is to desire to hear what God might be or is saying and get yourself out of the picture as much as possible. Try not to put any qualifiers from your own flesh!

 

[New_Wineskin]

If the person wants to muddy the waters with their own theology and ritual , there is no reason to believe that they will refrain from addition or subtraction from anything that the Lord gives them - if indeed , He gave them anything in the first place . The Lord can speak to me just fine . If a person thinks that the Lord has something for me , they should know from the Lord what not to do to detract from what He has already told me . He can always use someone else or none at all to tell me what is on His mind . He doesn't *need* that person . He allows the person to be a part of what He is doing in the Body . It is a gift for them as well as the person to whom He wants administered . If a person cannot be happy that He is using them and wants to put their own garbage in the message , they should be prepared to be ignored . Their's is to do what the Lord wants them to do . If they want to be a peacock , they can join the theater .

 

[K2K]

Since it means to me that the person is putting their own words at the beginning of whatever they may have received , I will listen but with only one ear . They close one of my ears by placing presentation first . If they want to speak in tongues ( ie old English ) , they should do so throughout their "word" and allow for an interpretation in the language that I speak . Don't mix and match languages if you want to be understood .

It is always interesting when someone starts (or has any part of) a message from the Lord in Old English.

However, I must remember, that we are hearing the Spirit with our spiritual ears. As you seem to understand, it is an impression that we pick up in our own language.

That is; when I hear the Lord I hear Him in words I understand in my language. Yet I have seen people that do know the Lord and speak American like I do, that are so used to only hearing the Lord while reading their Old English King James verson, that even when they pick Him up speaking about something other than the Scriptures, He still comes across in Old English.

That is probably a sign that they are not talking and listening to Him during most of the rest of their life, but just while reading the Scriptures. Yet they still can hear from Him, and might still have a message for me, even though He comes across as speaking Old English to them.

I don't discount the fact that they could be hearing from Him but I do take it to Him in prayer (a conversation with Him). He can tell me if the prophecy has meaning for me and what meaning it has.

For example: When I used to have a Christian bookstore, a lady came into my store and started a message she claimed was from the Lord with "Thus saith the Lord". I checked with the Lord and He told me that is was not from Him. When I asked Him about the lady, He told me that she knew Him but didn't check the spirits before giving a message (see 1 Jn 4:1-3)

A week or two later again she came into the store and again started a message with "Thus saith the Lord". This time I asked the Lord about it and He told me that it was from Him and that He was going to verify that to me later. That night I meet at the church for intercession with my friends. When I got there Tony (a friend that knows the Lord well) gave me the exact same message the had. Tony didn't start it with "Thus saith the Lord", but rather he began, "Hey Karl, the Lord wanted me to give you this message."

The Lord often uses others to catch our attention or verify something He is trying to get across to us. So all things need to go to Him in prayer. Paul explained that He took all thoughts captive to Jesus Christ. Thoughts others have for us should also be taken to Jesus Christ in prayer.

The Lord once gave me a teaching about how both a false prophet and a true prophet of the Lord accomplish the same thing for those that know Him. Both the false prophet and the true prophet cause those who believe in Him to turn and seek Him for answers.

1 Cor 13:7 Love... bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

God is still Lord of lords. He once told me that the devil can't do anything that He doesn't allow him. So while God is not evil, even evil accomplishes the purposes that God has for me. So both false prophets and true prophets accomplish God's plan for me. So I should not dispise what anyone says, though the false prophet my need some help.

Still, as for me, if I need understanding I only need to ask Him.

 

[tturt]

whatfor - Robert Morris said that he's observed that often when he's in meetings that the people's response is often based on their gifting. I've seen that several times since then.

Since John Bevere is an evangelist, he's going to want more of a "in your face" type of prophetic presentation or it's not going to fit for him imo.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am skeptical as well of self proclaimed prophets and apostles.

Want me to really throw a monkey wrench into things? I know many do not believe in female church leadership, but when we were going to my wife's old church there was a self proclaimed apostle and it was a woman.

The prophets and pastors that have given us words, such as we will have two children within two years have all turned out to be false. They were just preying on our emotions for whatever reason knowing that my wife and I want to have children. The two years will be up in 3 months. My wife isn't pregnant and there is a 9 month gestation period and the word was that they will be born in two years.

In our prophetic group, we do not accept prophecies that deal with births, deaths or marriages. These are minefields that we think are best to avoid. Too much damage has been done to good people through prophecies of this nature that have proved to be false.

It is quite a different thing as you pray and the Holy Spirit signals to your spirit that God has heard your prayer. It happened to a number of people in the Bible like that.

What would be more helpful to you is to go up the front every Sunday and get the pastor and elders to pray for you that God will give you children, and keep annoying them and God until God tells you to stop. It is called extended intercession, and would have a much better chance of things happening with you than all the prophecies in the world.

God is not in the business of giving false promises, but He is certainly in the business of hearing intercessary prayer, especially when He sees that you really mean business with Him. He tells us that by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, make your request to God. He also says that we should pray and not faint. So don't be put off with a pastor or leader who might not have as much faith as you have. Insist on being prayed for every Sunday for the same thing come what may. Show God that you mean business even if it seems that you are annoying Him with repeated requests.

Actually, He loves it when you do that. It's called coming to the throne of grace to find mercy and grace to help in time of need. The Scripture does not say that we are to come to His throne of grace once only, so there is absolute freedom to come to Him everything you want.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is nothing for me to repent of. They were wrong and I can call them on it.

BTW, it will not happen because she's not going to birth twins in 3 months. She's not even pregnant at this time.

This is the one thing that I don't appreciate in some Christians. The whole you can not question a pastor, or any other "man" of God. I will continue to question them, especially when they appear to be false.

I agree with you totally. The problem is that you and your wife were given a false prophecy.

Your difficulty with having children has nothing to do with your relationship with God or your attitude to Christ. The poster who said those things was not displaying the kindness of God toward you, but was displaying more of a fleshly judgmental attitude by making unsubstantiated guesses as to why things are not happening with you.

That's what Job's friends did to Job, and they did not have any understanding of the true situation. Job had to pray for them so that they would avoid judgment because of their inaccurate advice.

The way God deals with us at times is a mystery. Why you cannot have children at this time is a mystery that you cannot solve by yourselves. I don't know whether you have had medical tests to see if the problem is physical, but if there is nothing wrong in that area, then all you can do is to put yourselves into the hands of Jesus and allow Him to work out His will in and through you.

Putting yourselves in His hands doesn't mean that you remain passive. My advice in my former post still stands.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A very good book to read is The Beginners Guide to Prophecy by Jack Deere. This book is excellent at being able to find out the difference between true and false prophecy.

 

[Nanopants]

I've only known of two people claiming to have the gift of prophecy in a congregational setting. The first was a pastor who would frequently trail off into seemingly random, unpredictable directions or "rabbit trails" as he called them, while giving sermons. A lot of it was extrabiblical as he was going into detail about his own personal experiences and life-lessons but I have to admit, there were some times that he would say something that just hit the nail on the head so to speak, addressing something in my life that nobody else knew about. I never did see him knowingly give a direct prophecy to anybody though, and he even explained that his gift of prophecy was administered indirectly.

The other one was in a different church and he would for some unknown reason jump out of the congregation and start describing some kind of vision which he had seen, describing the state of someone's heart, etc. I only saw him do it once, but it sounded like something so ambiguous that anybody could derive something meaningful from it if they really believed it was inspired. Needless to say, I had my doubts, and perhaps not so coincidentally, the church ended up being strangely judgmental and not very welcoming so I ended up leaving after a short time.

 

[Deba]

I am a prophet. Not because I am prophetic because I am not (usually). Over 10 years ago God asked me to be a prophet, gave the consequences of messing up and then gave me a chance to think about it and give Him an answer. I accepted and began a 3 year season of preparation that pretty much set me apart from the people of the church while making me a servant to them.

For the last 7 years I have been churchless in a foreign country and have given the same message to people from every continent, about 20,000 times, while serving them food.

Only in this do I now understand that I am a one message prophet. That message is in the form of a story and it is, "There is a God. He is good. You can have a relationship with Him."

This doesn't fall into any idea of what I thought a prophet should be, but I now assume that God has some wee wee wee minor prophets, and I am one of those.

 

[Alive_Again]

Their are different kinds of the prophetic anointing, but prophets should regularly move in the gift of prophecy and other revelation gifts (word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discernment of spirits) on a consistent basis.

Prophecy in the New Covenant is to speak edification, exhortation, and comfort to the church of God. Although I am obviously not your judge, it is very unusual to not minister to the body of Christ as this is who the five fold ministry serves. This is to keep the body from being deceived by every wind of doctrine. It is difficult to believe that you would not be in unity with the body no just because that is whom you primarily serve, but because you are called to receive of the same ministry from that same body. Their is not one part of the body that does not need the rest of the body to be complete and whole.

The fruits of walking fully in God's plan should be an abundant life, full of the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Your soul should be made fat, and your body healthy. Your walk should be primarily free from oppression (although not attacks), and the glory of God should be manifest on a regular basis.

Only you can judge your own fruits, but not forsaking the assembly of the brethren is scriptural and the Holy Spirit does not oppose the scripture. Th enemy separates. The Lord can and will separate someone for a season and interaction with the body might well seem very restricted in your walk. Keep in mind that your primary ministry is to the body. If you're not moving in the gifts among the body, you won't be fulfilled and have the above described fruits.

 

[Nanopants]

It is scriptural but we have to remember that the man who wrote those words also spent 2 years in isolation in the wilderness during his preparation. I doubt that he intended to be hypocritical, so perhaps people have a tendency to bee a little too strict with the interpretation.

 

[Alive_Again]

Your difficulty with having children has nothing to do with your relationship with God or your attitude to Christ. The poster who said those things was not displaying the kindness of God toward you, but was displaying more of a fleshly judgmental attitude by making unsubstantiated guesses as to why things are not happening with you.

I don't believe any has said that your difficulty having children has anything to do with your walk. There is a "stewardship" of the promises of God that is our part. It involves coming into agreement with them and laying hold of them. This is a general precept to be mindful of. It does not imply fault on your part.

Another thing to be mindful of is that the deliverer of revelation received from God can misinterpret what they see. This does not condone the practice, nor it does not mean that it is deliberate. It does not mean that we should not judge what is spoken (far from it).

We should keep our heart pure and judge based on the Spirit and not on the things we see and hear in the natural. As one person indicated, sometimes someone will try and deliver a word presumptuously by the wrong spirit (or even by their own good intentions). They might have a bad track record, but they also might deliver a true word. If the word was from God and misinterpreted the revelation, then being openly critical of the person prophesying would be unwise.

It is possible to pick up things from your spirit when someone lays hands on you. That is another thing entirely.

...The Lord can speak to me just fine .

...It is a gift for them as well as the person to whom He wants administered .

We're not to despise prophesyings. We judge everything we hear. God does use His servants (any Christian) and His prophets. It's up to God to use who He wants to deliver some of His messages.

To speak in judgment about the intent of the heart of the one prophesying is a delicate issue because "we" are not called to judge the person (only his words and actions for truth). God CAN and does through the gift of discernment of spirits gives sight on this. This is the proper judgment we are to have if we judge. Jesus said that He didn't judge, yet if He judged, He judged righteously. Is it unwise to bring this to your remembrance?

If the person wants to muddy the waters with their own theology and ritual , there is no reason to believe that they will refrain from addition or subtraction from anything that the Lord gives them...

...If a person cannot be happy that He is using them and wants to put their own garbage in the message , they should be prepared to be ignored .

You speak of the intent of their heart. You'd better be sure.

...If they want to be a peacock , they can join the theater .

This all points to the flesh. Even if you're right, God calls for us to keep our hearts, not render judgment according to the flesh, not speak in judgment against His servants, not to complain, to judge ALL words (by His Spirit), etc. If you don't readily bear witness with what someone says, just pray about it and commit it to the Lord until you hear otherwise.

They were just preying on our emotions for whatever reason knowing that my wife and I want to have children..

From our other friend...

That's what Job's friends did to Job, and they did not have any understanding of the true situation. Job had to pray for them so that they would avoid judgment because of their inaccurate advice..

This is solid counsel.

More good counsel is praying about where you fellowship and allow to speak into your life.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't believe any has said that your difficulty having children has anything to do with your walk. There is a "stewardship" of the promises of God that is our part. It involves coming into agreement with them and laying hold of them. This is a general precept to be mindful of. It does not imply fault on your part.

Another thing to be mindful of is that the deliverer of revelation received from God can misinterpret what they see. This does not condone the practice, nor it does not mean that it is deliberate. It does not mean that we should not judge what is spoken (far from it).

We should keep our heart pure and judge based on the Spirit and not on the things we see and hear in the natural. As one person indicated, sometimes someone will try and deliver a word presumptuously by the wrong spirit (or even by their own good intentions). They might have a bad track record, but they also might deliver a true word. If the word was from God and misinterpreted the revelation, then being openly critical of the person prophesying would be unwise.

It is possible to pick up things from your spirit when someone lays hands on you. That is another thing entirely.

We're not to despise prophesyings. We judge everything we hear. God does use His servants (any Christian) and His prophets. It's up to God to use who He wants to deliver some of His messages.

To speak in judgment about the intent of the heart of the one prophesying is a delicate issue because "we" are not called to judge the person (only his words and actions for truth). God CAN and does through the gift of discernment of spirits gives sight on this. This is the proper judgment we are to have if we judge. Jesus said that He didn't judge, yet if He judged, He judged righteously. Is it unwise to bring this to your remembrance?

You speak of the intent of their heart. You'd better be sure.

This all points to the flesh. Even if you're right, God calls for us to keep our hearts, not render judgment according to the flesh, not speak in judgment against His servants, not to complain, to judge ALL words (by His Spirit), etc. If you don't readily bear witness with what someone says, just pray about it and commit it to the Lord until you hear otherwise.

From our other friend...

This is solid counsel.

More good counsel is praying about where you fellowship and allow to speak into your life.

We need to be careful that we don't stray away from Grace-based Christianity to performance-based religiosity.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, patience, faithfulness, goodness, self-control. This is the way God deals with us, because this is His nature.

We cannot explain the mysteries of God's plans and purposes. Things happen, positively and negatively, that do not have anything to do with our performance as Christians.

God has fully settled the sin question through the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ. He does not see any sin in us, regardless of how others see our performance. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. If a person is in Christ, he or she has a new heart, and there is absolutely no condemnation.

In fact, Paul challenges anyone by demanding who is able to lay any charge to those who are in Christ. He names two person who could lay charges: God, who justifies, and Christ who died for us. Paul implies that there is no-one else qualified in any way to lay any charges at all on another Christian, totally regardless of how that believer is or is not performing in the way that the person tempted to bring charges is viewing the supposed non-performing believer.

Are we saying that Hannah was sinning in some way because she was childless? What about Sarah? She was childless until she was 90 years old; was she sinning? What about any OT character who was childless. What about Elizabeth, the wife of Zachariah, Mary's cousin?

I believe God's answer to anyone who is struggling with childlessness is not chastisement or condemnation, but "My Grace is sufficient for you."

 

[Alive_Again]

No performance issues on the pregnancy. Like all promises we're believing God for, we just want to stay in agreement with them and that is not a performance.

Regarding the "prophecy" if that is what that was, it's always wise to remember to watch the heart and judge by the Spirit. That keeps us clean and blameless and keeps our eyes off of man and on the straight and narrow. That's all.

Also, keeping our judgments to the words or actions and not placing them on the servant, no matter mistaken or deceived that person may or may not be, or how disappointed we are.

 

[Deba]

Their are different kinds of the prophetic anointing, but prophets should regularly move in the gift of prophecy and other revelation gifts (word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discernment of spirits) on a consistent basis.

Prophecy in the New Covenant is to speak edification, exhortation, and comfort to the church of God. Although I am obviously not your judge, it is very unusual to not minister to the body of Christ as this is who the five fold ministry serves. This is to keep the body from being deceived by every wind of doctrine. It is difficult to believe that you would not be in unity with the body no just because that is whom you primarily serve, but because you are called to receive of the same ministry from that same body. Their is not one part of the body that does not need the rest of the body to be complete and whole.

The fruits of walking fully in God's plan should be an abundant life, full of the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Your soul should be made fat, and your body healthy. Your walk should be primarily free from oppression (although not attacks), and the glory of God should be manifest on a regular basis.

Only you can judge your own fruits, but not forsaking the assembly of the brethren is scriptural and the Holy Spirit does not oppose the scripture. Th enemy separates. The Lord can and will separate someone for a season and interaction with the body might well seem very restricted in your walk. Keep in mind that your primary ministry is to the body. If you're not moving in the gifts among the body, you won't be fulfilled and have the above described fruits.

Methinks your vision of God and who He loves is too small.