Prophetic promises to Israel

jgr

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Jerry,
This is becoming increasingly entertaining.
1. If you knew this is the question I would ask, then you also knew that you hadn't answered it.
2. Please make it even plainer. I haven't seen the words Psalms, Isaiah, Ezekiel, past, or future; in any of your responses.
3. My question does not reference Joel at all; therefore you need not concern yourself with it.

If you do not wish to respond any further, just let me know.
 
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jerry kelso

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jgr,

1. Precisely the question I knew you would ask.

2. I already gave you the answer but let me make it plainer.

3. That passage is not metaphorical from Joel.
This does not mean there are no allegorical passages in the Bible. Jerry kelso
Jerry,
This is becoming increasingly entertaining.
1. If you knew this is the question I would ask, then you also knew that you hadn't answered it.
2. Please make it even plainer. I haven't seen the words Psalms, Isaiah, Ezekiel, past, or future; in any of your responses.
3. My question does not reference Joel at all; therefore you need not concern yourself with it.

If you do not wish to respond any further, just let me know.

jgr,

1. You said Joel was in a metaphorical context and if those other passages were why couldn't Joel's be.
I answered your question the first time.
If Joel's passage was metPhorical or allegorical I would have told you.
Please quit trying to act like you don't know what I said. Jerry kelso
 
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Biblewriter

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There are many prophetic passages that are stated in apocalyptic language. Many people give all kinds of interpretations of the meanings of the symbols used. Some of these interpretations are rational, and are probably correct. But when we interpret what God said, we can never be absolutely certain we have interpreted it correctly.

But there are many other prophetic passages that are explicitly stated in plain language. There passages do not need to be interpreted, but to be believed.

People that do not wish to believe the parts that are stated in plain language will continually bring up passages whose meaning can rationally be debated, as if these passages somehow take away from the pure, simple, facts stated in the more obvious passages.

This is not an approach of honest inquiry. It is an attempt to discredit honest discussion of what God has actually said is going to happen.
 
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jgr

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And with that I rest my case.

I'm confident in the ability of any God-loving, truth-seeking, clear-minded individual to draw a sound and scriptural conclusion from the evidence presented.

God bless you both, Jerry and Biblewriter.
 
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jerry kelso

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There are many prophetic passages that are stated in apocalyptic language. Many people give all kinds of interpretations of the meanings of the symbols used. Some of these interpretations are rational, and are probably correct. But when we interpret what God said, we can never be absolutely certain we have interpreted it correctly.

But there are many other prophetic passages that are explicitly stated in plain language. There passages do not need to be interpreted, but to be believed.

People that do not wish to believe the parts that are stated in plain language will continually bring up passages whose meaning can rationally be debated, as if these passages somehow take away from the pure, simple, facts stated in the more obvious passages.

This is not an approach of honest inquiry. It is an attempt to discredit honest discussion of what God has actually said is going to happen.

Bible writer,

Well said! Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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Mat 3:9  and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 


Mat 21:37  Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 
Mat 21:38  But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 

Mat 21:39  So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. 

Mat 21:40  "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?" 

Mat 21:41 
They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons." 

Mat 21:42  Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ? 


Mat 21:43  "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 



1Pe 2:4  Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 
1Pe 2:5  you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 
1Pe 2:6  Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME." 
1Pe 2:7  Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE," 
1Pe 2:8  and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. 
1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 
1Pe 2:10  who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 


Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.
 
Gal 3:29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 
Rom 9:8  That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 


1Ti 1:4  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 

 
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Biblewriter

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“But it happened that night that the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying, ‘Go and tell My servant David, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Would you build a house for Me to dwell in? For I have not dwelt in a house since the time that I brought the children of Israel up from Egypt, even to this day, but have moved about in a tent and in a tabernacle. Wherever I have moved about with all the children of Israel, have I ever spoken a word to anyone from the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people Israel, saying, “Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?” ‘ “Now therefore, thus shall you say to My servant David, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts: “I took you from the sheepfold, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people, over Israel.And I have been with you wherever you have gone, and have cut off all your enemies from before you, and have made you a great name, like the name of the great men who are on the earth. Moreover I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies. Also the LORD tells you that He will make you a house.’ ” ’ ” (2 Samuel 7:4-11)

We need to notice that this prophecy, which was made to David, that is, a very long time after Israel had been settled in her ancient homeland, and even after the time of the Judges, yet, even at that late date, promises that “I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies.”

That is, even at this late date, there was still a time promised for Israel that they would even yet, in the future, be planted in their land, “that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously.”

Now this unquestionably has never happened. For after this promise was made, they were cast out of their land, that is, they were forced to “move.” And, even to this day, they are still oppressed by “the sons of wickedness.”

So there is absolutely no rational way to even pretend that anything even remotely resembling this promise has ever happened. But there it stands, in the Holy Scriptures, clearly stated to have been made by the Lord himself.

But some claim that, although this promise was indeed made, that Israel afterward lost it due to their sins. But when we consider this promise in its context, we see something remarkable. For as we continue to read in the same passage, we find the words:

"When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ” (2 Samuel 7:12-16)

Here we find a most remarkable promise, in that it specifically and explicitly says that it cannot even be cancelled by future sins. “If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.”

Now it is indeed true that this part of the prophecy speaks of Christ, not of Israel. Nut it is nonetheless critical to realize that this is the context of the previous promise made to Israel, as such, that it would be planted in their land “that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously.”
 
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BABerean2

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“But it happened that night that the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying, ‘Go and tell My servant David, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Would you build a house for Me to dwell in? For I have not dwelt in a house since the time that I brought the children of Israel up from Egypt, even to this day, but have moved about in a tent and in a tabernacle. Wherever I have moved about with all the children of Israel, have I ever spoken a word to anyone from the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people Israel, saying, “Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?” ‘ “Now therefore, thus shall you say to My servant David, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts: “I took you from the sheepfold, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people, over Israel.And I have been with you wherever you have gone, and have cut off all your enemies from before you, and have made you a great name, like the name of the great men who are on the earth. Moreover I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies. Also the LORD tells you that He will make you a house.’ ” ’ ” (2 Samuel 7:4-11)

We need to notice that this prophecy, which was made to David, that is, a very long time after Israel had been settled in her ancient homeland, and even after the time of the Judges, yet, even at that late date, promises that “I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies.”

That is, even at this late date, there was still a time promised for Israel that they would even yet, in the future, be planted in their land, “that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously.”

Now this unquestionably has never happened. For after this promise was made, they were cast out of their land, that is, they were forced to “move.” And, even to this day, they are still oppressed by “the sons of wickedness.”

So there is absolutely no rational way to even pretend that anything even remotely resembling this promise has ever happened. But there it stands, in the Holy Scriptures, clearly stated to have been made by the Lord himself.

But some claim that, although this promise was indeed made, that Israel afterward lost it due to their sins. But when we consider this promise in its context, we see something remarkable. For as we continue to read in the same passage, we find the words:

"When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ” (2 Samuel 7:12-16)

Here we find a most remarkable promise, in that it specifically and explicitly says that it cannot even be cancelled by future sins. “If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.”

Now it is indeed true that this part of the prophecy speaks of Christ, not of Israel. Nut it is nonetheless critical to realize that this is the context of the previous promise made to Israel, as such, that it would be planted in their land “that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously.”

Heb 11:16  But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. 


.
 
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BABerean2

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Bible writer,

Well said! Jerry kelso

Dispensational Fraud: Kingdom of Heaven vs. Kingdom of God



If we truly love the Jewish people we need to share the Gospel with them, now.

The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 prove that the baby born in a manger was and is the Messiah promised in the Old Testament.

We need to quit pretending that modern Jews are in a right relationship with God, based on their DNA. Failing to share the Gospel with them is the most anti-Semitic thing we could ever do.

Talmudic Judaism should be exposed for the heresies that it speaks against Christ. These writings of the Rabbis claim that Christ was the bastard son of a Roman soldier and that He is now burning in boiling excrement.

Get a copy of the book "Jesus in the Talmud" by Peter Schafer (who is Jewish) and read it for yourself.

.
 
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SeventyOne

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We need to quit pretending that modern Jews are in a right relationship with God, based on their DNA. Failing to share the Gospel with them is the most anti-Semitic thing we could ever do.

You may find some dispensationalists teaching this, but it is not a dispensational teaching.
 
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BABerean2

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You may find some dispensationalists teaching this, but it is not a dispensational teaching.

Yes, and no.

Mention the modern State of Israel and many modern Christians will start talking about "Gods people". Somehow they ignore what their New Testament says about those who reject God's Son.

1Jn 2:22  Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 
1Jn 2:23  Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 



Based on data from One For Israel, which has a Bible College in central Israel made up of both Jewish and Arab Christians, about 0.3% of those now living in Israel are Christians.
That is the sad reality.


I had a local Baptist pastor tell me that he thought modern Jews are still under "the old dispensation."

How many programs have you seen on the Church Channels promoting Jewish Evangelism?

The message is simple. The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 could be our greatest tools for taking the Gospel to the Jewish people.

Sadly, many will make the charge of "Replacement Theology", instead of telling Jews they are lost without Christ.

They also ignore the New Covenant, because it proves Dispensational Theology is not scriptural. This is part of the problem. Some of us are ignoring the one thing that is a key part of taking the Gospel to the Jews and others around the whole world.

The Two Peoples of God/ Two Plans of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology has been a tremendous obstacle to Jewish Evangelism.

Most modern Christians have no idea what is taught by Talmudic Judaism.
Many would be shocked to know that the Talmud makes derogatory statements about Christ. Yet the Talmud is promoted by the leadership of the nation of Israel.
What is wrong with this picture?


.
 
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SeventyOne

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Yes, and no.

Mention the modern State of Israel and many modern Christians will start talking about "Gods people". Somehow they ignore what their New Testament says about those who reject God's Son.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 



Based on data from One For Israel, which has a Bible College in central Israel made up of both Jewish and Arab Christians, about 0.3% of those now living in Israel are Christians.
That is the sad reality.


I had a local Baptist pastor tell me that he thought modern Jews are still under "the old dispensation."

How many programs have you seen on the Church Channels promoting Jewish Evangelism?

The message is simple. The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 could be our greatest tools for taking the Gospel to the Jewish people.

Sadly, many will make the charge of "Replacement Theology", instead of telling Jews they are lost without Christ.
They also ignore the New Covenant, because it proves Dispensational Theology is not scriptural.


The Two Peoples of God/ Two Plans of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology has been a tremendous obstacle to Jewish Evangelism.

Most modern Christians have no idea what is taught by Talmudic Judaism.
Many would be shocked to know that the Talmud makes derogatory statements about Christ. Yet the Talmud is promoted by the leadership of the nation of Israel.
What is wrong with this picture?


.

What's wrong with this picture is that the idea of replacement theology is being thrust upon dispensationalism like it owns it. If you want to attack the evils of replacement theology, I'm behind you. However, if you try to impose such a teaching on a broad group of people and then declare, "this is what you are like", then I'll have issues with your false characterization.

This seems to me to be very similar to the way I see people handle what is generally called easy-believism and OSAS. The accusation is OSAS proponents believe that all someone has to do is say a few words, then live in sin the rest of their lives, and they are still saved, but it's an ignorant mixture of two different thought processes. One concept is imposed on the proponents of another concept.

Dispensationalism actually relies on the Jews coming to salvation in Christ, when such elements as fulfilling the promised land covenant take place. That's why when someone makes the point to you concerning the Zechariah prophecy that 2/3 of the nation of the Jews dies, but 1/3 is saved, they are saved not only physically and nationally, but also saved in the way they recognize Jesus as savior and become born again. We only know this because this is what He tells us will take place, it's not like because they are Jews, then they have something special going on with their salvation. Personally, if I were a Jew and I saw that 66% of us were to die lost in the end, I wouldn't feel quite so privileged.
 
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BABerean2

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Dispensationalism actually relies on the Jews coming to salvation in Christ, when such elements as fulfilling the promised land covenant take place.

The first versions of Dispensational Theology have been mutated to make them more reasonable. What I am going to address here is Classic Dispensational Theology, as taught in the Scofield Reference Bible.

You will not hear Dispensationalists referring to the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and its fulfillment in Hebrews 8:6-13, and its specific application to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24. Why not? Because an understanding of the New Covenant destroys Dispensational Theology.

Dispensationalists claim the "Church Age" comes to and end 7 years before the Second Coming. However, the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20. We also find those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 11:12. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

Dispensationalists claim God is going to deal with the modern nation of Israel under the Old Covenant during a future time of Daniel's 70th week. However, we find that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13. Therefore, God is not going back to the Old Covenant.

The 144,000 are described as Jewish "Billy Grahams" by Dispensationalists, but they are described as "firstfruits" of the Lamb in the Book of Revelation. In Romans 16:5 Paul uses the same language to describe Christians.

Dispensationalists claim the Gentiles being grafted in was a "mystery" not revealed in the Old Testament. However, Paul says it was not a mystery to Hosea in Romans chapter 9.

In Matthew chapter 21 Christ reveals that He is the "heir" to the land.
He also said that the kingdom would be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone".
In 1 Peter 2:4-9 we find out who accepted the "chief cornerstone".


.
 
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Biblewriter

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You quote from Dispensational books the same way you quote scripture. You accurately quote parts of what was said, and then interpret the words to mean things that were not said, while ignoring other statements that clearly say the very opposite of what you imagine your selected quotations to mean.
 
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jgr

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You quote from Dispensational books the same way you quote scripture. You accurately quote parts of what was said, and then interpret the words to mean things that were not said, while ignoring other statements that clearly say the very opposite of what you imagine your selected quotations to mean.

Examples?
 
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BABerean2

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You quote from Dispensational books the same way you quote scripture. You accurately quote parts of what was said, and then interpret the words to mean things that were not said, while ignoring other statements that clearly say the very opposite of what you imagine your selected quotations to mean.

I am not Pastor John Otis, who quoted from Clarence Larkin's books in the presentation above.

.....................................................

The following is from me.

Those who ignore the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 will continue to be in error. Christ said at Matthew 26:28 that He would fulfill this covenant in His Blood. It is found in effect at Hebrews 8:6-13 and in verse 13 we find that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". It is applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24. It is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20. The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah. On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel" and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised to Jeremiah.

If you look in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, you will find that the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28. Dispensationalists have created a time machine by changing a covenant confirmed by Christ into a treaty broken by an antichrist not mentioned by the angel Gabriel, by adding a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel. It also ignores any time that the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people during the first century, even though Christ clearly commanded that the Gospel was to be taken "first" to the Israelites. It was not taken to the Gentiles until after Stephen reviewed the whole history of Israel and was then stoned to death.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023


God ripped the temple veil in half on the day of Calvary. If God ripped the veil, who is going to repair it? Yet Dispensationalists claim God is going to deal with the modern nation of Israel under the now "obsolete" Old Covenant during a future time period of 7 years when they will go back to keeping the Sinai covenant. They claim the Age of Grace ends even though the New Covenant is "everlasting". They ignore those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant. The 144,000 are described as "firstfruits" of the Lamb. Paul uses the same term to describe Christians in Romans 16:5. Yet most Dispensationalists claim the Church is removed from the earth before Revelation chapter 5.

The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Paul says that the branches broken off can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ. Paul provides no other path of salvation. Dispensationalists have changed the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26. Both John Hagee and David Jeremiah have incorrectly quoted this verse on television, in order to make their doctrine work. In verse 27 they have taken the New Covenant fulfilled at Calvary for all races of people and have converted it into a covenant to be fulfilled in the future.

You will almost never hear a sermon on the New Covenant in a Dispensational church, because the New Covenant destroys the doctrine.

The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 prove that the baby born in a manger was and is the Messiah promised in the Old Testament.

Ignoring the New Covenant, gives up one of our greatest tools for taking the Gospel to the Jewish people as well as others around the world.

.
 
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Biblewriter

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Examples?
I have been around and around with him about this, again and again, in thread after thread, and he just keeps on posting the same disinformation. I am not going to bother to go through it again.
 
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jgr

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We need to notice that this prophecy, which was made to David, that is, a very long time after Israel had been settled in her ancient homeland, and even after the time of the Judges, yet, even at that late date, promises that “I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies.”

That is, even at this late date, there was still a time promised for Israel that they would even yet, in the future, be planted in their land, “that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously.”

This was already fulfilled at that time. Note the use of the past perfect tense:

From Young's Literal Translation (YLT):

"10 and I have appointed a place for My people, for Israel, and have planted it, and it hath tabernacled in its place, and it is not troubled any more, and the sons of perverseness do not add to afflict it any more, as in the beginning,
11 even from the day that I appointed judges over My people Israel; and I have given rest to thee from all thine enemies, and Jehovah hath declared to thee that Jehovah doth make for thee a house."

Description of YLT:

The Bible text designated YLT is from the 1898 Young's Literal Translation by Robert Young who also compiled Young's Analytical Concordance. This is an extremely literal translation that attempts to preserve the tense and word usage as found in the original Greek and Hebrew writings.

"Extremely literal" should be particularly dispensationally appealing.
 
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