Prophecies fulfilled?

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Pink Spider said:
Greetings!

Jesus (allegedly) fulfilled 44 prophecies from the OT.

This is for many Christians a very strong reason to
believe in him as the savior and messiah.

I have always been wondering:

Is it not possible that all or some of these fulfilled prophecies
are cases of retro-engineered prophecy fulfillment?

What do I mean by that?

It's simple: All the authors of the NT were through and through
familiar with the OT.

Even Paul who was a Jew but became a Roman citizen.

So: They knew all the prophecies. What would be easier
than write their works so that it fit the old prophecies.
They wouldn't consider that 'lying' - they might even have
thought that it was a good thing they were doing.

That is what I mean by retro-engineered prophecy fulfillment.

How is it possible to know whether they were doing
this or whether some prophecies were genuinely fulfilled?

The idea that 2nd Temple Jews had a nice list of agreed messianic prophesies is a myth.
If you look at the OT texts that the NT says Jesus fulfilled in their original context they often aren't predictive at all, or are clearly talking about something else entirely.
But then what is the point of prophesy in the bible - usually its about warning or promise. Generally its not about giving someone later a handy magical proof.

What the NT texts are doing by referring back in this way is NOT trying to prove Jesus, its trying to understand Jesus by thinking about him in terms of those texts.
 
Upvote 0

intojoy

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2013
1,612
54
✟2,069.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
ebia said:
The idea that 2nd Temple Jews had a nice list of agreed messianic prophesies is a myth.
If you look at the OT texts that the NT says Jesus fulfilled in their original context they often aren't predictive at all, or are clearly talking about something else entirely.
But then what is the point of prophesy in the bible - usually its about warning or promise. Generally its not about giving someone later a handy magical proof.

What the NT texts are doing by referring back in this way is NOT trying to prove Jesus, its trying to understand Jesus by thinking about him in terms of those texts.

Disagreed :)
 
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
Pink Spider said,
So sorry - I do not understand at all...Would you be so kind as to elaborate a little? Thank you!
You are welcome. Most Jews don't believe Jesus is Messiah because Messiah will restore Israel to prominence and bring world peace. This is what scripture teaches, but it is misunderstood.
Jesus said the Kingdom of God is here, right now.
"“The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” Lk.17:20-21
Where is it? Or better, what is it? The Kingdom of God is a world composed of people who put their faith in God. It is being sown in the earth, right now, as a seed is sown in soil. We sow our lives and at the harvest (the resurrection), what we planted will be obvious. You didn't know you were a farmer. :)
 
Upvote 0

Joshua260

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2012
1,448
42
North Carolina
✟9,504.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I thought he already had...:confused:

Not sure what jdbear was getting at, but the Jews (including Jesus' apostles) were expecting the messiah to come "clean house". Jesus instead sufferred and died on a cross, so the Jews reject him as the true messiah. The Christian answer to this "dilemma" is that those prophecies concerning the "conquering" messiah are referencing to Jesus' SECOND coming.

A little extra info beyond my answer:
One thing that really limits later possible "messiahs" is that Daniel 9 talked about the messiah coming before the destruction of the temple...that happened in 70 A.D.
 
Upvote 0

intojoy

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2013
1,612
54
✟2,069.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Joshua260 said:
Not sure what jdbear was getting at, but the Jews (including Jesus' apostles) were expecting the messiah to come "clean house". Jesus instead sufferred and died on a cross, so the Jews reject him as the true messiah. The Christian answer to this "dilemma" is that those prophecies concerning the "conquering" messiah are referencing to Jesus' SECOND coming.

A little extra info beyond my answer:
One thing that really limits later possible "messiahs" is that Daniel 9 talked about the messiah coming before the destruction of the temple...that happened in 70 A.D.

Agreed
 
Upvote 0

Pink Spider

EUROPEAN ANGLICAN
Site Supporter
May 26, 2013
10,929
493
Sweden
✟38,072.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
[...]If you look at the OT texts that the NT says
Jesus fulfilled in their original context they often aren't predictive at all,
or are clearly talking about something else entirely.
Yes - that struck me too when I was checking
out some of those 'prophecies'...

[...]
But then what is the point of prophesy in the bible - usually its about warning or promise. Generally its not about giving someone later a handy magical proof.
No - but the alleged 'fulfillments' are widely used as
proof that Jesus was the Christ and savior (e.g. Lee
Strobel).

[...]
What the NT texts are doing by referring back in this way is NOT trying to prove Jesus, its trying to understand Jesus by thinking about him in
terms of those texts.
Yes - that makes sense.
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Pink Spider said:
Yes - that struck me too when I was checking
out some of those 'prophecies'...

No - but the alleged 'fulfillments' are widely used as
proof that Jesus was the Christ and savior (e.g. Lee
Strobel).
Sadly
 
Upvote 0

Pink Spider

EUROPEAN ANGLICAN
Site Supporter
May 26, 2013
10,929
493
Sweden
✟38,072.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Not sure what jdbear was getting at, but the Jews (including Jesus' apostles) were expecting the messiah to come "clean house". Jesus instead sufferred and died on a cross, so the Jews reject him as the true messiah.
Aha - I think I finally understand. Jesus did not fit in
the picture the Jewish had made of the coming of
the messiah.

The Christian answer to this "dilemma" is that those prophecies concerning the "conquering" messiah are referencing to Jesus' SECOND coming.
OK. First he comes to give people the chance to
get saved. Then he will come 'with the sword' and
fight with the Antichrist(s) and 'clean the earth'
of unbelievers and demons and stuff. No?


One thing that really limits later possible "messiahs" is that Daniel 9 talked about the messiah coming before the destruction of the temple...that happened in 70 A.D.
Yes - that prophecy is famous.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Pink Spider

EUROPEAN ANGLICAN
Site Supporter
May 26, 2013
10,929
493
Sweden
✟38,072.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Yes. All in all I must say I'm now totally confused.
Some Christians rely heavily on prophecy
fulfillment - while some say that they are not so
important and many of them are not prophecies
at all.

How can I find a way out of that dilemma?
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Pink Spider said:
Yes. All in all I must say I'm now totally confused.
Some Christians rely heavily on prophecy
fulfillment - while some say that they are not so
important and many of them are not prophecies
at all.

How can I find a way out of that dilemma?

Same way you deal with other divergent opinions, I guess. Listen to the points, check out some of the citations, decide which you think makes the most sense if any.
 
Upvote 0

intojoy

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2013
1,612
54
✟2,069.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I don't agree in the liberal views of anti prophetic fulfillment. Here is some proof to the contrary from the best, Dr Fruchtenbaum

Ariel Ministries: Messianic Bible Studies NUMERICAL INDEX

When the Bible speaks of a worldwide regathering of the Jewish people, it actually speaks of two distinct worldwide regatherings. This is the fifth perspective. First there is to be a worldwide regathering in unbelief in preparation for judgment; specifically, the judgment of the Tribulation. That is to be followed by a second worldwide regathering in faith in preparation for blessing, specifically, the blessing of the Messianic Kingdom. Once it is recognized that the Bible speaks of two such regatherings, it is easy to see how the present State of Israel fits into prophecy. This section focuses on those prophecies that clearly speak of a worldwide regathering in unbelief in preparation for judgment.

One passage clearly dealing with a return in unbelief in preparation for judgment is found in Ezekiel 20:33-38: As I live, says the Lord Jehovah, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face. Like as I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I enter into judgment with you, says the Lord Jehovah. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me; I will bring them forth out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am Jehovah.
In this passage, Ezekiel draws a simile with the Exodus when, under Moses, God brought the entire nation of Israel out of the land of Egypt and into the wilderness of the Sinai Peninsula. God's plan and program for Israel at Sinai was to accomplish two things: first, they were to receive the Law of Moses; and secondly, they were to build the Tabernacle through which much of the Law could then be maintained. With these two things accomplished, they were to press on and enter into the Promised Land itself. But because of a series of murmurings and rebellions against God's revealed will, finally at the Oasis of Kadesh Barnea, which was right on the border of the Promised Land, God entered into judgment with His people. The divine judgment was that those who came out of Egypt would now have to continue wandering throughout the wilderness for forty years. During those forty years, all those who came out would die, except for two righteous spies, and those below the age of twenty. So forty years later, it was a new nation that was allowed to enter the Land under Joshua, a nation that was born as free men in the wilderness, not as slaves in Egypt. That historical frame of reference is the backdrop for the future. But this time, Ezekiel prophesies, God will regather His people from all parts of the world. It should be noted that it is a regathering out of wrath, and a gathering for wrath and judgment; it is a gathering both out of wrath and for wrath. They were gathered out of the wrath of the Holocaust. The events of the Nazi Holocaust, when six million Jewish people died, created the world stage for Israel to become a state, for the regathering in unbelief. That this gathering is not in faith, but in unbelief, is seen from the fact that this gathering is with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, with wrath poured out. This phrase is repeated twice and is found in verses 33 and 34. God's goal is that of Messianic Kingship, but the means of attaining it will be by wrath and judgment. This regathering in unbelief occurs after wrath has been poured out on the people. But because it is a regathering in unbelief, it is a regathering for a future time of wrath. In the future time of wrath, God will once again enter into judgment with His people, and will purge out the rebels among them. Those who remain will turn to the Lord; they will be brought into the bond of the covenant; specifically, the bond of the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-34). They will be brought into national salvation. Then it will be a new nation, a
regenerate nation that will be allowed to enter the Land under King Messiah for the final restoration. In these verses, Ezekiel clearly describes a worldwide regathering in unbelief, from wrath and for wrath, in preparation for a specific period of judgment that will then lead to a national salvation, and in turn to their final restoration.
Another passage making the same point is Ezekiel 22:17-22: And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, the house of Israel is become dross unto me: all of them are brass and tin and iron and lead, in the middle of the furnace; they are the dross of silver. Therefore thus says the Lord Jehovah: Because ye are all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the middle of Jerusalem. As they gather silver and brass and iron and lead and tin into the middle of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my wrath, and I will lay you there, and melt you. Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the middle thereof. As silver is melted in the middle of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the middle thereof; and ye shall know that I, Jehovah, have poured out my wrath upon you. Ezekiel again describes a regathering, this time focusing on the City of Jerusalem. Jerusalem becomes the furnace of affliction, a common figure pointing to Israel's need for refining (Is. 1:22, 25; 48:10; Jer. 6:27-30; 9:7; Zech. 13:9; Mal. 3:2-3). Furthermore, it is also a regathering in unbelief because they are filled with the impurities of silver and brass and iron and lead and tin. They are also regathered for a future time of wrath, when the wrath of God will be poured upon them for the purpose of melting them and purifying them. As a purified, believing nation, they will then turn to the Lord. Here again he speaks of a worldwide regathering in unbelief in preparation for a specific future judgment, but the purpose of the judgment is to bring them to national repentance. Only then will they experience the final worldwide restoration in faith.

While primarily dealing with the regeneration of Israel, Ezekiel 36:22-24 nevertheless makes it clear that a regathering takes place before the regeneration: Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord Jehovah: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the middle of them; and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, says the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
 
Upvote 0

intojoy

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2013
1,612
54
✟2,069.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Ariel Ministries: Messianic Bible Studies NUMERICAL INDEX
Continued

Another passage dealing with the same question is Isaiah 11:11-12: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord will set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, that shall remain, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together
the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
In this connection, the fourth view needs to be discussed. This view recognizes that there are two types of regathering prophecies: a regathering in unbelief and a regathering in faith. But then the fourth view goes on to say that one really cannot be sure that the present Jewish State, as it is seen today, is a fulfillment of those prophecies that spoke of the regathering in unbelief. Why not? Because they believe that it is possible to have several regatherings in unbelief before there is the specific one that fulfills the prophecies just discussed. But this passage in Isaiah shows that is exactly what cannot be: there cannot be several regatherings in unbelief from the far corners of the earth. The entire context is Isaiah 11:11-12:6. In this context, he is speaking of the final worldwide regathering in faith in preparation for blessing. Isaiah numbers the final worldwide regathering in faith in preparation for the Messianic Kingdom as the second one. In other words, the last one is the only the second. If the last one is the second one, how many can there be before that? Only one. The first one could not have been the return from Babylon since that was not an international regathering from the four corners of the world, only a migration from one country, Babylonia, to another country, Judea. The Bible does not allow for several worldwide regatherings in unbelief; it allows for one worldwide regathering in unbelief, followed by the last one, the one in faith, which is the second one. This text only permits two worldwide regatherings from the four corners of the earth. Therefore, the present Jewish State is very relevant to Bible prophecy.

So far, passages have been shown that speak of a regathering in unbelief in preparation for judgment as opposed to other passages that speak of a regathering in faith in preparation for blessing. But these passages have not specifically stated that this regathering in unbelief in preparation for judgment will occur before the Tribulation period. However, there are other passages that do pinpoint the regathering in unbelief as occurring before the Tribulation period.

One such passage is Zephaniah 2:1-2: Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation that has no shame; before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of Jehovah come upon you, before the day of Jehovah's anger come upon you.
In the preceding section of Zephaniah 1:7-18, Zephaniah described some features of a time called the day of Jehovah, or as other translations have it, the day of the Lord. This is the most common Old Testament name for the Tribulation and always describes the Great Tribulation. Then in chapter 2:1-2, Zephaniah speaks of an event that is to occur before the Day of Jehovah begins. In verse 1, the nation of Israel is told to gather together. It is clear from this verse that this is a gathering in unbelief for it is a nation not yet ashamed of her sins.

In verse 2, the word before is used three times in relation to the preceding passage regarding the Tribulation. One of these “befores”
includes before the day of Jehovah itself. So while other texts speak of a regathering in unbelief in preparation for judgment, this passage clearly states that this regathering in unbelief will occur before the Tribulation actually begins.

Another line of evidence concerning the beginning point of the Tribulation period can be mentioned at this point. The Tribulation begins with the signing of the Seven-Year Covenant, not with the Rapture of the Church. This covenant is made between the Antichrist and the leaders of Israel. Therefore, the signing of such a covenant presupposes a Jewish leadership of a Jewish State. Such a Jewish State has to exist before such a covenant is signed. This demands the existence of a Jewish State before the Tribulation.

Thus, 1948 marked another birth pang of the last days. The restoration of the Jewish State is a fulfillment of those prophecies that spoke of a regathering in unbelief in preparation for judgment. It is another event leading up to the Tribulation and so sets the stage for several other pretribulational events.

C. Jerusalem Under Jewish Control The third pretribulation event involves Jewish control of Jerusalem. The fact that the Jewish State had to exist before the Tribulation does not necessarily require the total Jewish control of Jerusalem. After the end of the Israeli War of Independence in 1948-1949, Israeli forces were in control of West Jerusalem, the newer Jewish section. The Old City of Jerusalem, the biblical city, fell into the hands of the Jordanian Legion and was later annexed into the Hasemite kingdom of Jordan. So Jerusalem became a divided city and remained that way for the next nineteen years.

Nevertheless, prophetically speaking, the Old City of Jerusalem had to fall under Jewish control. This can be deduced from the prophecies dealing with the Third Jewish Temple, sometimes known as the Tribulation Temple. There are four passages of Scripture that speak of a specific event in relation to the Tribulation Temple that will occur in the middle of the Tribulation.

The first passage is Daniel 9:27: And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that makes desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

The second passage is Matthew 24:15: When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that reads understand).

The third passage is II Thessalonians 2:3-4: let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be
revealed, the son of perdition, he that opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.

And the fourth passage is Revelation 11:1-2: And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and one said, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. And the court which is without the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it has been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

All these passages speak of the Third Jewish Temple, namely the Tribulation Temple. The point of all four passages is that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt and will begin to function again. All of these verses also presuppose Jewish control of the Temple Compound, and that presupposes Jewish control of the Old City of Jerusalem.

While none of these passages spell out a time factor as to when this was to occur, it was clearly fulfilled in the Six Day War and thus became the third birth pang. While the Six Day War itself was never predicted in the Scriptures, what it accomplished certainly was. The Six Day War brought about the fulfillment of the prophecy regarding the Jewish control of the Old City of Jerusalem. This is the third major pretribulational event.

While the first three of these events have already been fulfilled and are now a part of history, the next six pretribulational events are all future.

By Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hospes

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2005
1,245
117
Arizona
Visit site
✟48,887.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Some Christians rely heavily on prophecy
fulfillment - while some say that they are not so
important and many of them are not prophecies
at all.

How can I find a way out of that dilemma?
Regardless of where Christians land on this, Jesus placed importance on it. Read the story beginning at Luke 24:13 of Jesus making a point to talk to a couple of disciples "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself."

Good story; I think you'll get a kick out of it.
 
Upvote 0

Pink Spider

EUROPEAN ANGLICAN
Site Supporter
May 26, 2013
10,929
493
Sweden
✟38,072.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Regardless of where Christians land on this, Jesus placed importance on it. Read the story beginning at Luke 24:13 of Jesus making a point to talk to a couple of disciples "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself."

Good story; I think you'll get a kick out of it.
Thanks! :thumbsup: Good point btw!
 
Upvote 0

Hawkins

Member
Site Supporter
Apr 27, 2005
2,568
394
Canada
✟238,144.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes. All in all I must say I'm now totally confused.
Some Christians rely heavily on prophecy
fulfillment - while some say that they are not so
important and many of them are not prophecies
at all.

How can I find a way out of that dilemma?

Prophecies are God's mean to confirm His own message - the Bible. Humans can have their own version of how they are fulfilled. However it doesn't matter as prophecies also serve the following purpose (same as the parables),

Matt 13:
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

In the end, the believers will get the abundance and the other camp will get none. That's how the wheat can be distinguished from the weeds.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Pink Spider

EUROPEAN ANGLICAN
Site Supporter
May 26, 2013
10,929
493
Sweden
✟38,072.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Prophecies are God's mean to confirm His own message - the Bible. Humans can have their own version of how they are fulfilled. However it doesn't matter as prophecies also serve the following purpose (same as the parables),

Matt 13:
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

In the end, the believers will get the abundance and the other camp will get none. That's how the wheat can be distinguished from the weeds.
They will get access to the 'secrets of the kingdom'
(is that another word for understanding prophecies?)
and I will get nil. I guess that's fair.
 
Upvote 0