Proper gender roles in marriage and how is a man to act from an Orthodox perspective?

[SingularityOne]

"Someone asked me, ‘Geronda, what is it that most unites husband and wife? ‘ “Gratitude,” I answered. “They love each other for what they give as a gift to one another. The wife offers her husband trust, devotion, obedience. The husband offers his wife assurance and security that he can protect her. The wife is the noble lady of the household, but also the mature servant. The husband is the captain of the household, but also the lowest laborer."
- Saint Paisios the Athonite on Family Life

This is just one quote, among many others, that I have found that support traditional marriage. I'm trying to figure out how a man is supposed to act since gender-roles are becoming non-existent in our society.

My priest once told me that men an women both have love for one another, however, the man loves his wife by "cherishing" her and the woman loves her husband by "respecting" him. The man is the "protector" and the woman is the "nurturer". Since everyone in the United States society (man and woman) has the "protector" as their goal, it seems that being the "nurturer" is "going out of style", and is avoided, in a way.

As Tradition and it's interpretation of Holy Scripture seems to affirm traditional marriage and roles, has anyone thought about this before?

Also, any advice on reading to understand the Orthodox perspective on this deeper would be great too!

 

[ArmyMatt]

women also civilize and culture men, men also serve women.

it's free, mutual, and unique submission to the other.

best thing to read is the Wedding Service.

 

[SingularityOne]

women also civilize and culture men, men also serve women.

it's free, mutual, and unique submission to the other.

best thing to read is the Wedding Service.

I’ll be sure to read the Wedding Service, thanks for the recommendation.

Would you say that this “service” differs between genders though? It would seem that biologically, women and men have different virtues/stengths that they bring to serve the other (the St. Paisios quote for one example).

 

[archer75]

I’ll be sure to read the Wedding Service, thanks for the recommendation.

Would you say that this “service” differs between genders though? It would seem that biologically, women and men have different virtues/stengths that they bring to serve the other (the St. Paisios quote for one example).

It's going to be hard to find a univeral application of this principle. There are women who extremely tall and physically strong, and there is nothing that says one of them cannot be married to a man who is exceptionally short and not very strong.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I’ll be sure to read the Wedding Service, thanks for the recommendation.

Would you say that this “service” differs between genders though? It would seem that biologically, women and men have different virtues/stengths that they bring to serve the other (the St. Paisios quote for one example).

yes, as defined in the wedding service.

 

[SingularityOne]

It's going to be hard to find a univeral application of this principle. There are women who extremely tall and physically strong, and there is nothing that says one of them cannot be married to a man who is exceptionally short and not very strong.

Maybe I wasn’t clear with what I meant by “biology”, I mean more psychologically rather than physical shortness or tallness, strong or not strong physically.

Each gender receives and gives love to the other in service in different ways.

 

[SingularityOne]

yes, as defined in the wedding service.

Indeed, I did see that the mutual submission aspects so far, but the submission from the husband seems to differ from the wives submission as the husband submits as Christ does and the women submits as the Church does. Like I said, it seems the service of each gender manifests itself of different ways.

Currently reading through the service now in depth.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Indeed, I did see that the mutual submission aspects so far, but the submission from the husband seems to differ from the wives submission as the husband submits as Christ does and the women submits as the Church does. Like I said, it seems the service of each gender manifests itself of different ways.

Currently reading through the service now in depth.

the submission is distinct, but mutual and total and free.

 

[SingularityOne]

the submission is distinct, but mutual and total and free.

Would you mind explaining what you mean by mutual, total, and free here?

I just read the service and it still seems that, per the epistle reading (man is the head and the woman is the body, mutual submission is distinct ways, etc.) and other things (ex: the woman being the helper of the man and the man being created for dominion upon the earth first) that the man is the leader (protector) of the household and the woman is the helper (nurturer).

I’m just trying to understand the mind of the Church deeper here and want to crucify my mind to that Mind, however, I believe that our society is tainted in that it has a skewed view of natural/Orthodox marriage in contrast to the Marriage Service I just read. So I’m glad you are helping me out with more of a deeper understanding Fr. Matt as I could be wrong in my conjectures so far.

 

[rusmeister]

My opinion may be only that, but it seems to me to be in accordance with the Church fathers and the Apostle Paul.
Fr Matt is right. Everything is ultimately mutual. My one caveat is that there is a reason the Apostle gave different specific injunctions to men and to women separately. He told each sex to do what is harder for that sex to do.
It is harder for men to love self-sacrificially and unconditionally. A woman does it practically automatically when she bears a child, but not so men.
It is harder for women to submit to others. Not so men - such submission is what armies, police forces and other organizations are based on.
So I think that, in general, it is easier for men to submit, and for women to love self-sacrificially, which is why the Apostle’s injunctions make sense to me and do not contradict the idea of equality and mutual submission.

 

[SingularityOne]

My opinion may be only that, but it seems to me to be in accordance with the Church fathers and the Apostle Paul.
Fr Matt is right. Everything is ultimately mutual. My one caveat is that there is a reason the Apostle gave different specific injunctions to men and to women separately. He told each sex to do what is harder for that sex to do.
It is harder for men to love self-sacrificially and unconditionally. A woman does it practically automatically when she bears a child, but not so men.
It is harder for women to submit to others. Not so men - such submission is what armies, police forces and other organizations are based on.
So I think that, in general, it is easier for men to submit, and for women to love self-sacrificially, which is why the Apostle’s injunctions make sense to me and do not contradict the idea of equality and mutual submission.

So, if I’m understanding what you are saying here, then I’m hearing that it is about who can humble oneself most and do what is more difficult for the specific gender to do out of love for the other to become more authentic and vulnerable (Christ-Crucified) to and for the other?

If hierarchy is inherent in nature though, does that not mean that the position God blesses the man with is the leader/head of the household even though the man still will humble himself to lead in humility and still listen to his wife in cherishing her?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Would you mind explaining what you mean by mutual, total, and free here?

I just read the service and it still seems that, per the epistle reading (man is the head and the woman is the body, mutual submission is distinct ways, etc.) and other things (ex: the woman being the helper of the man and the man being created for dominion upon the earth first) that the man is the leader (protector) of the household and the woman is the helper (nurturer).

I’m just trying to understand the mind of the Church deeper here and want to crucify my mind to that Mind, however, I believe that our society is tainted in that it has a skewed view of natural/Orthodox marriage in contrast to the Marriage Service I just read. So I’m glad you are helping me out with more of a deeper understanding Fr. Matt as I could be wrong in my conjectures so far.

Christ claims He is Lord and Master after He washes His disciple's feet. He chose to serve them freely, served without hesitation, etc. Christ shows that the husband shows his headship in service to the wife.

 

[SingularityOne]

Christ claims He is Lord and Master after He washes His disciple's feet. He chose to serve them freely, served without hesitation, etc. Christ shows that the husband shows his headship in service to the wife.

I agree wholeheartedly. It would seem that there still is hierarchy in the home nevertheless as the husband leads with humility. He still makes the decisions ultimately, however, he submits to his wife in humility to wholeheartedly listen to her and her side of the conversation in love. Correct?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I agree wholeheartedly. It would seem that there still is hierarchy in the home nevertheless as the husband leads with humility. He still makes the decisions ultimately, however, he submits to his wife in humility to wholeheartedly listen to her and her side of the conversation in love. Correct?

not only that, but anything he decides, he decides to serve her.

 

[SingularityOne]

not only that, but anything he decides, he decides to serve her.

Okay, from someone who used to pedistalize woman in an unhealthy way in relationships and idolized women ahead of God, how should I understand this kind of service to her?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Okay, from someone who used to pedistalize woman in an unhealthy way in relationships and idolized women ahead of God, how should I understand this kind of service to her?

again, the wedding service tells you. it tells you to look at the married couples and why they are mentioned in the service.

 

[SingularityOne]

again, the wedding service tells you. it tells you to look at the married couples and why they are mentioned in the service.

I see. I’ll go look more closely at the married couple mentioned in the service. Thanks for the information.

 

[gzt]

I think pushing too hard on gender roles as such is not really productive - we're all called to holiness and all have our own particular strengths and weaknesses. Everybody has to make their way to be what God has created them to be, but there is not one virtue for men and one virtue for women. The idea of "traditional gender roles" often becomes about particular (and specifically recent - and even rather recent imaginations of what the past is like rather than what it was actually like) cultural notions rather than anything actually "true" to humanity.

 

[archer75]

not only that, but anything he decides, he decides to serve her.

How does he know what kind of service she needs?

 

[ArmyMatt]

How does he know what kind of service she needs?

she tells him, he pays attention and listens.