Proof that Isaiah 6:9,10 does not underpin Calvinism's divine reprobation

[janxharris]

Matthew 13:10-16
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

Not only does Jesus not include Judas in those that Calvinists would call the reprobates, but He positively puts Him in the obverse - the elect.

There can be only one conclusion - Isaiah 6:9,10 does not underpin Calvinism's doctrine of divine election/reprobation.

 

[abacabb3]

Proof at last!

 

[abacabb3]

Proof at last!

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 13:10-16
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

Not only does Jesus not include Judas in those that Calvinists would call the reprobates, but He positively puts Him in obverse - the elect.

There can be only one conclusion - Isaiah 6:9,10 does not underpin Calvinism's doctrine of divine election/reprobation.

Fortunately, that's not the sole argument for reprobation.

Nothing to see here.

 

[janxharris]

Fortunately, that's not the sole argument for reprobation.

Nothing to see here.

If you are not going to defend the argument for Isaiah 6:9,10 (underpinning divine reprobation) then I'll assume you agree with the OP.

 

[nobdysfool]

I don't see anything in the passage about Judas. You assume too much, in the haste to kick dirt on Calvinist theology.

 

[janxharris]

I don't see anything in the passage about Judas. You assume too much, in the haste to kick dirt on Calvinist theology.

Mark 4:10-12
When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, “‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”

 

[nobdysfool]

I'm not talking about Mark. Your claim was made in reference to Isaiah. Also notice, there were more than just the Twelve present in Mark. For all we know, Judas may have been busy counting the money, and not really listening. Judas was marked out for a specific purpose, which he did fulfill. This isn't about trying to expound on Truth, this is about trying to kick dirt on Calvinism, and by extension, Calvinists.

There is an attempt being made here to portray Arminians and non-Calvinists as "more compassionate", than even God. It would seem wise to let the fate of Judas rest in God's Hands, and quit using him as a proof of a doctrinal stance. At best, he is no better or worse than any of us, and at worst, he is an aberration, an exception, to how God deals with sinners to bring them to Salvation.

Stop the Calvinism-bashing. It's against the rules of this forum,.

 

[janxharris]

I'm not talking about Mark. Your claim was made in reference to Isaiah. Also notice, there were more than just the Twelve present in Mark. For all we know, Judas may have been busy counting the money, and not really listening. Judas was marked out for a specific purpose, which he did fulfill. This isn't about trying to expound on Truth, this is about trying to kick dirt on Calvinism, and by extension, Calvinists.

Mark 4 and Matthew 13 cover the same event and quote Isaiah 6:9,10.

The twelve were present and Jesus told 'them'.

There is an attempt being made here to portray Arminians and non-Calvinists as "more compassionate", than even God. It would seem wise to let the fate of Judas rest in God's Hands, and quit using him as a proof of a doctrinal stance. At best, he is no better or worse than any of us, and at worst, he is an aberration, an exception, to how God deals with sinners to bring them to Salvation.

Stop the Calvinism-bashing. It's against the rules of this forum,.

I suggest you stop posting on this thread if it grates you. I have made an argument that so far stands unrefuted. There is no Calvinism bashing.

Since you disagree, then you should report me.

 

[Hammster]

If you are not going to defend the argument for Isaiah 6:9,10 (underpinning divine reprobation) then I'll assume you agree with the OP.

You just ignore what I said.

 

[janxharris]

You just ignore what I said.

If you read the OP carefully, then you will see that I am only talking about Isaiah 6 being used to defend the theology. I know there are other verses used.

 

[Hammster]

If you read the OP carefully, then you will see that I am only talking about Isaiah 6 being used to defend the theology. I know there are other verses used.

Then the OP makes no sense.

 

[nobdysfool]

Mark 4 and Matthew 13 cover the same event and quote Isaiah 6:9,10.

The twelve were present and Jesus told 'them'.



I suggest you stop posting on this thread if it grates you. I have made an argument that so far stands unrefuted. There is no Calvinism bashing.

Since you disagree, then you should report me.

And you really didn't deal with what I said, you just dismiss it. Stirring up strife among the brethren is not a Christian activity. I have never seen any non-Calvinist portray even one aspect of Calvinist theology in anything other than a negative light. There's always this push to kick dirt on Calvinism, to make it appear as something other than what it actually is, through various misrepresentation of it, which despite correction are still being posted as though no correction were given. This is documented FACT.

The end game for non-Calvinists for years here has not been just to disagree, but to defeat, to eliminate, and to vilify Calvinism. That is also a FACT. I have been in this forum for over 10 years, and I have seen this kind of thing come and go for that long. So protests to the contrary, or claims that certain people aren't doing that, when they so clearly and obviously are, are so much hot air.

Calvinism causes such a visceral reaction because it elevates God and debases man. None of us wants to think we're as bad, as corrupt and as depraved as Scripture says we are. For those of us who have embraced Christ, we must remember that apart from Him, we are every bit as bad, as corrupt and as depraved as the worst sinner. Christ is our only hope. Holding a proper and realistic view of who and what we really are is humbling, it is God-honoring, and it is essential, so that we do not begin to think of ourselves more highly than we ought. We see some here who would portray themselves as "more compassionate", "more concerned for the lost", and even "more loving" than God Himself. Certainly they try to do so in comparison to Calvinists, who they would attempt to portray as "cold", "unloving", and "callous" with regard to the lost. The truth is, the most successful evangelistic efforts have been put forward by Calvinists. A majority of the Founding Fathers of this nation (the USA) were Calvinists of one stripe or another. Calvinism has been around for far longer than anyone in this forum, by several factors of magnitude, and there is no one here who will defeat it, refute it, or cause its downfall. No one.

 

[sdowney717]

Judas is unique.
Judas had a special purpose being the ONLY one given to Christ that Christ would lose.
The only one. The one and only one.
One of Judas's purpose God tells us in His word is so that when it comes to pass, the betrayal, that you can know Jesus spoke the truth about Judas and that Jesus is the Christ of God. (Jesus saying 'you will know that I AM HE').

You cant draw any broad comparison saying all people are like Judas. That does not fit what God said about Judas.

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 13:10-16
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

Not only does Jesus not include Judas in those that Calvinists would call the reprobates, but He positively puts Him in the obverse - the elect.

There can be only one conclusion - Isaiah 6:9,10 does not underpin Calvinism's doctrine of divine election/reprobation.

Why is there an assumption that those who can see are automatically part of the elect?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't see anything in the passage about Judas. You assume too much, in the haste to kick dirt on Calvinist theology.

To charge someone with "kicking dirt" on another's theology is rather extreme, especially when that someone hasn't even come close to doing so.


This is what janx said:
Not only does Jesus not include Judas in those that Calvinists would call the reprobates, but He positively puts Him in the obverse - the elect.

There can be only one conclusion - Isaiah 6:9,10 does not underpin Calvinism's doctrine of divine election/reprobation.
Could you explain to me what "dirt" was kicked on Calvinist theology in this statement?

He was making a point, not kicking dirt. There is a big difference.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Stop the Calvinism-bashing. It's against the rules of this forum,.

Would you be able to point out specifically what was actually "bashed" in janx's post?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You just ignore what I said.

To quote your post #4,

"there's nothing to see here"

 

[cygnusx1]

Matthew 13:10-16
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

Not only does Jesus not include Judas in those that Calvinists would call the reprobates, but He positively puts Him in the obverse - the elect.

There can be only one conclusion - Isaiah 6:9,10 does not underpin Calvinism's doctrine of divine election/reprobation.

Who said reprobates don't experience some blessings ?
Yet Judas was lost , even after experiencing many things the elect experience , just as temporary faith and false faith save none , so. Judas is a warning to believers to watch and pray .

 

[Hammster]

To quote your post #4,

"there's nothing to see here"

I'm glad we agree on the OP.