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Proof of God

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Paradigmaster, Aug 21, 2002.

  1. Received

    Received True love waits in haunted attics

    +732
    Christian
    Married
    My mistake. The correct forumla would be [the beginning being] nothing times nobody equals everything. Everything in the natural has a cause.

    Also, Malone, what you were critiquing is not a theory. It is common sense. Everything within time must have a beginning. Nothing in the natural exists for eternity. If you are claiming common sense as a theory, I will be more than happy to go and play with my bag of "shhh".

    blessings,

    John
     
  2. foolsparade

    foolsparade Well-Known Member

    +24
    Atheist
    Received, you say my views on religion are out of whack?? I say your views on life and of humanity are out of whack. You subscribe too, support, and advocate a belief structure that seeks to condemn everyone for being themselves. Your God will bring an end to all life as we know it whenever he decides he has had enough. I would have no problem believing in a God that would ask nothing more from us than to just live in peace and be happy. Not too worry about the afterlife and not offer a reward for being "moral". However I just do not believe any God is responsible for creating the earth, the fact that their are 300,000 species of beatle may lead one to say God is amazing, but I would say nature is amazing.
     
  3. LewisWildermuth

    LewisWildermuth Senior Veteran

    +118
    Christian
    Single
    What is wrong with saying "I don't know yet"? That is all science can currently say about the begining of the universe. Saying "I don't know yet" in no way rules out God. I myself believe God did start the process that led to the universe, but since I have no evidence that he did it is just a belief and I really don't know.

    Since God by his own deffinition is unknowable to us and thus undefinable science can never "know" that He is there because science can only "know" what can be defined. And to say that one knows that God did it would be lying since one cannot know one can only believe.

    So my analogy still stands and I'll slightly reword it for you.

    I don't know yet. + I don't know yet. = the begining of the universe.
     
  4. Received

    Received True love waits in haunted attics

    +732
    Christian
    Married
    Nature is amazing, supernature - all the more amazing. Your view on Christianity? The typical. God wants us to live in peace and be happy. God is not out to get us with spiritual coercion and some twisted race against the clock decision, or else when you die you burn forever in hell, even though its impossible for spirit to burn. Man has a pride problem, and God sent Himself to fix it, that man may see the sacrifice of His God, not only humiliating Himself and becoming a human (C.H. Spurgeon once said it was more humiliating for God to become a man than for an angel to become worm) but going all the further to die on a ragged tree by the hands of his own creation for a cause of His own system of sacrifice, of which man had origionally perverted for financial wealth and immense hypocrisy regarding the true God fearing Jews. How is this horrendous or unbearable? What about Hell? Amazingly, many people use fear and attempt to clothe it in gospel. In reality, all they are preaching is the gospel of coercion, or as I like to call it, the good news of fear. Lets get two things straight on Hell. First of all, everyone is judged fairly. This goes to everyone, no matter if they knew the truth and ignorantly rebelled against it, or if they did not know the truth or could not comprehend the truth. The latter is justified by two verses in the Bible, one in the Old Testament, another in the New.

    "If you say, 'surely we did not know this,' does not He who weigh the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?" --Proverbs 24:12

    "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven." -- Luke 12:10

    How do you blashpheme the holy spirit?  Rebellion.  How do you blaspheme the Son of Man?  Reject Him.  The latter is forgiven on behalf of innocence.  This goes with Proverbs 24:12.

    Still on the subject of Hell, a very logical and compassionate atheist might ask "why does eternity have to be physical torture for an act commited within 80 years time?"  The response would be that the flames in Hell (and the biblical, final Hell is the second death of Revelation 20) are almost certainly symbolic for condmenation or a permanent state of judgment.  It makes sense.  Revelation is apocalyptic scripture - it is to be taken for the most part metaphorically.  Also, I would add that a mind-set is not temporary - it is permanent until it is changed by external resources.  Thus, eternal damnation in Hell is not unrighteous, it is merely respecting the intrinsic value of a person on behalf of his or her free will.  Someone once said that Hell is not Hell from the perspective of those in Hell, but is Hell from the view of Heaven.  It all has to do with the better life.  The people in Hell are self-righteous, arrogant, and not willing to see the truth on behalf of this.  C.S. Lewis said the doors of Hell are locked from the inside.  I've always told atheists that it is good to get in your mind that God is fair before they run off into the doctrine of Hell.  The gospel message is that of love, of which I think I've decently covered. 

    I also might add, with vigor on this subject due mostly on behalf of the great Christian thinkers, such as C.S. Lewis and J.P. Moreland, that many are Christians and they don't even consider themselves to be, and many who claim to be Christians never have truly repented and accepted the cure to their pride.  These are usually the hypocrites who make people mad and even more confused over the truth of good religion. A philosopher once said "judge a man not by what he says, but how he acts". Jesus once said "judge a tree by it's fruit". The New Testament speaks on this seeming mystery of salvation identity disorder.

    "[God] will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and imortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness --indignation and wrath" -- Romans 2:6-8

    "But," you say "Billy Joe the preacher said "nobody comes to the father but through me" (John 14:6) speaking on behalf of the words of Jesus". Is it really odd to have the acceptance of Christ only via verbal acceptance? I believe many know him and practice his virtues without even knowing it, all on behalf of their humility. Here comes the liberal train out to get me.

    So you see, the real question is not "Will you save yourself from fire fire fire?" but rather "Would you like your life and your eternity to be better?"  God is not looking for sheer doctrinal correctness, but rather honesty and innocence.  Don't you want to be sure that you will have better life?

    I APOLOGIZE FOR THIS SHORT SERMON

    fools *pointing finger* was merely stating his reason for rejecting Christianity and I was giving my reply.  If you delete my post, you must delete his as well.  If you want to continue this (I dont really see why) then meet me in apologetics.  No more preaching, I promise.

    blessings,

    John
     
  5. Received

    Received True love waits in haunted attics

    +732
    Christian
    Married
    The problem with "I don't know yet" is your logic and reasoning do know. It is logically impossible for something to come into existence without a will - without something to get the ball rolling, so to say. You must have a will for something to come into existence. The naturalist claims chance is the force behind the origin of the species. However, chance is not a force; it determines nothing. It is only a sort of mathematical probability median. If I have a coin and flip it x amount of times and get x results then you just might have a universe. But naturalists deny the coin and claim results. A simple fallacy. Indeed, it is the coin that is the reason you can even have chance in such a scenario.

    You can claim naturalism all you want. If you hold to it and deny deity, you would be exhibiting more faith than any Christian if you did. As a matter of fact, if you still hold to naturalism knowing it goes against your logic, you are indeed exibiting a great amount of faith. You are hoping in what has not yet been revealed or proven. Christians have hope in whom they claim has a will and communes with them. It is the atheists who exemplify their own phrase: "blind faith".

    blessings,

    John
     
  6. LewisWildermuth

    LewisWildermuth Senior Veteran

    +118
    Christian
    Single


    Now if it operated as you say then yes it would be a fallacy, but it does not.

    Mutations are by chance, but the natural selections are anything but chance. Natural selection is simple, "can I survive long enough to have children?" and it is dictated by the enviroment that one finds oneself in.

    Take a bacteria colony and slowly heat the enviroment they live in and take another colony of the same bacteria and slowly cool their enviroment.

    You when you start out both colonies thrive at say 20 degrees, after a few million generations (this experament can take weeks or months depending on the type of bacteria used) and your cooling one and heating the other you get one colony that thrives at 10 degrees C and one colony that thrives at 30 degrees C and they may even die at the temprature that their ancestors thrived in and definity die at the temps that their cousins in the other dish thrive in. The mutations that allowed them to survive at the different tempratures were random but the selection of those mutants to survive was not. This kind of thing happens in nature all the time.

    We all have blind faith, well maybe not the agnostics but any one on either side of the fence from them has blind faith since neither side can be proven.
     
  7. Received

    Received True love waits in haunted attics

    +732
    Christian
    Married
    Fair enough Lewis. I keep forgetting you are a nice atheist.

    Mutations and all you say are capable by chance only if you have something on which the chance may rest. This, of course, is a fallicious argument, as if you have divinity as the will at the beginning, at least on behalf of Christianity, you do not have chance.

    Still, something does not come from nothing unless an outer will is involved. That is just the way things work. And if they work this way here, then it works with the rest of the natural universe.
     
  8. LewisWildermuth

    LewisWildermuth Senior Veteran

    +118
    Christian
    Single
    Speaking of falacies...

    You assume that because I disagree with you that I am an atheist?

    I do not assume that you are not a Christian because you disagree with me why do you not extend the same courtesy to me?
     
  9. Received

    Received True love waits in haunted attics

    +732
    Christian
    Married
    Sorry. I assumed that you were an atheist. I actually didn't mean that sentence in a derogatory manner. There are lots of mean atheists here. But I'm sorry for being off completely.

    I'd buy you a vanilla coke if I could email it to you.
     
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