"proof For A Pre-trib Rapture"

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Faithful1

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Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
Sometimes I think it's funny, knowing that the bible says that we are not appointed to wrath, but yet many christians believe that we will go through God's wrath in the coming tribulation, ...

This is a serious error and a very common misconception among new Christians and those unfamiliar with the meaning of "tribulation".

I'm shocked , RT , that you still ascribe to the error that tribulation means God's wrath!:(

The word 'tribulation' is NEVER used in New Testament to mean 'wrath' . In fact, the greek word used for 'tribulation' is Thlipsis; and it is never translated 'Wrath'.

**The word thlipsis (translated 'tribulation') is always used to mean afflictions , persecutions and trouble inflicted upon the righteous by the ungodly, by the world, and by Satan. In fact, the same scripture in Matthew where Jesus said, "great tribulation (thlipsis)" is tanslated as "great Affliction" in Luke. It is sometimes translated affliction, sometimes tribulation, and always (except in one place) referrs to what God's people endure at the hands of the world & at the hands of the enemy. It is never used to mean God's wrath which is a totally different greek word, 'orge' or 'thumos', (meaning punishment, vengence, or indignation & wrath). Any Concordance or good Bible lesson will clearly reveal this fact.

Therefore, you are in great error from the beginning not realizing the source of this erroneous teaching. So much for your 'proof'.

OF COURSE CHRISTIANS WON"T GO THROUGH GOD"S WRATH because THE TRIBULATION IS NOT GOD'S WRATH!! It is Satan's wrath... and beleive me the Bible says the Church will go through it!

**It ought to be obvious from the context (to those who WANT to know the truth) that Jesus, (in Matthew) was not saying that God was sending the "great Tribulation" , otherwise he never would have said that " FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE those days shall be shortened" or else "NO FLESH would be saved." ....When he spoke of the tribulation he said, "Then let them in Judea flee..." Was Jesus telling them to flee God's wrath? How ridiculous!! Everyone listening to Jesus knew exactly what He was talking about....How come you don't? He was talking about fleeing the coming persecution, the wrath of him who sets up the abomination of desolation.

The only way to understand it (and all of prophecy) is to drop all of your PRECONCIEVED OPINIONS about what you want to happen and simply HEAR (and believe) what Jesus is saying.
Of course, that is obviously what is hardest for some people to do.


Faithful1

Here it is again....READ IT FOR YOURSELF:

When, therefore, you shall see the abomination of desolation ( spoken of by Daniel the prophet),.....then let those in judea flee.....FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION (AFFLICTION & PERSECUTION) such as has not been from the beginning of the world..." Matt 24:15-21
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Faithful1,
Some people won't know truth unless it hits them right in the face. I'm not going to argue with you about it, but I hope you enjoy your tribulation. After all, it's what you really want isn't it?? Well for your sake, I hope it's a good one then. Rots of Ruck!!
 
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Faithful1

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Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
Faithful1,
Some people won't know truth unless it hits them right in the face.

...... the truthfulness of that staement is made quite obvious from your response to my post.:(

I'm not going to argue with you about it,

Of course not; error can't withstand the light of truth.
You could however take the noble position and admit your error. But its not likely you yet have a heart that takes pleasure in discovering itself.



I hope you enjoy your tribulation. After all, it's what you really want isn't it??

Wrong again. The question is "What is it that YOU want so badly that you are so eagerly willing to throw away scripture in order to try to enforce the false doctrine of "We don't have to suffer "?
Are you so afraid to suffer that you are willing to call God a liar??

The question is: Should we endure YOUR false doctrine just because you don't want to suffer?

Contrary to the attitude found among false teachers what we want doesn't matter. It only matters what God wants. I hope you will recognize that this is the Biblical attitude you should have, and quit trying to make it look like suffering is wrong. -

Faithful1

"We, through much tribulation, must enter the kingdom of God"-- Apostle Paul And he didn't mean God sends tribulation!
 
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Ben johnson

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Sometimes I think it's funny, knowing that the bible says that we are not appointed to wrath, but yet many christians believe that we will go through ...the coming tribulation, ...
Hi, Thunder. Your understanding is that there's a verse which makes the quoted statement. Which verse woud that be? 1Thess5:9? "For God has not appointed us to wrath, but for obtaining salvation through Jesus." Can't be this one---this is constructe "THESIS / ANTITHESIS". The thesis WRATH compliments the anti-thesis, SALVATION.

Did Jesus die on the Cross to protect us from TRIBULATION? Is that why He came? No. "Not wrath BUT salvation". There is only one possible meaning here for "WRATH", "HELL". For God has not destined us for HELL but for obtaining salvation through CHRIST.

Which verse then are you referring to? Maybe Matt3:7? In context, John-the-Baptist was also speaking of salvation: "Who warned you? If you do not bear good fruit, YOU WILL BE CUT OFF. I baptize with water, HE baptizes with the Holy Spirit. And His fork is in His hands, He will empty the threshing floor---the wheat He will gather into the barn, the chaff will He burn with unquenchable fire. The WHEAT (believers who had good fruit) He will gather, but the chaff (unbelievers with bad fruit) He will burn. What are the "brood of vipers" trying to flee? THE CHAFF-BURNING-FIRE! Then this too, is addressing salvation, NOT great tribulation.

Luke 3:7 is but a repetition of Matt3:7, so having established the MATT verse as "salvation, not tribulation", the LUKE verse must ALSO be "salvation not tribulation".

Please Thunder, tell us where that verse is, the one that says: "You are not appointed (destined, set) for THE GREAT TRIBULATION"

Where is the verse?
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Hello Ben,
I don't wish to argue about differences in our beliefs, but I did take the time to look up the word wrath for you.

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary - They give two definitions:

(1) strong vengeful anger or indignation

(2) retributory punishment for an offense or crime : Divine chastisement

Sorry guy, I don't see any connection between wrath and hell. Cheers!!
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Last night I was going back and re-checking what I have written, and trying to edit my mistakes out. I noticed that I had forgotten to bold verse (16) in the story of Lot. This verse is very important, because it tells us why Lot didn't make it to the mountain.  The reason is: that he didn't make it because he hesitated when the angels told him to hurry and escape to the mountains.  He wasn't ready.  This is why Jesus told us to be alert and sober, and to keep watch. And by failing to heed this warning, even true christian believers will get caught in the trappings of this world. Don't mistake that last sentence to mean that they will not be saved, because the word tells us that many must be purified in the fire. But also, it tells us that some will fall away from the truth. Look at this verse:

Luke 21:34 - "Be on guard so that your hearts are not weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of this life, and that day does not catch you unexpectedly,"
 
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Ben johnson

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Sorry guy, I don't see any connection between wrath and hell. Cheers!!
Hi, Thunder. I explained this in post #8. What Webster says isn't really the question---but rather, how it is used in Scripture.

In Romans2, Paul admonishes repentance: "By your hard and unrepentant heart you are storing WRATH for the DAY OF WRATH---for those who by perseverance in doing good, (seeking glory and honor and immortality), eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrightousness, wrath and indignation." We have two eternal rewards here---eternal life, and wrath. WRATH = HELL.

Identically, in 1Thess5:9, "God has not destined us for wrath, but for salvation through Jesus." The whole chapter is speaking of "THE DAY OF THE LORD"---just as Romans 2 was. Jesus did not come to "save us from the Great Tribulation"---Jesus came to save us from HELL.

God has not destined us for the GREAT TRIBULATION but for salvation through Jesus? No---God has not destined us for HELL but for SALVATION through Jesus. (Through believing in Christ.)

If what you say is true, that the SAVED are not destined for TRIBULATION, then what of those who are saved DURING the Tribulation? If SAVED are not destined for wrath, will each be removed FROM the Tribulation AS HE IS SAVED???
 
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armothe

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Originally posted by Faithful1
This is a serious error and a very common misconception among new Christians and those unfamiliar with the meaning of "tribulation".

The word 'tribulation' is NEVER used in New Testament to mean 'wrath' . In fact, the greek word used for 'tribulation' is Thlipsis; and it is never translated 'Wrath'.
Faithful1

I have to side with Faithful1 on this issue. The bible does indeed state Christians would go through the tribulation:

Matthew 24:9 - (Christ to His disciples) then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name.
Acts 11:19 - Those, indeed, therefore, having been scattered abroad, from the tribulation that came after Stephen, went through unto Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, speaking the word to none except to Jews only;
2 Cor 1:8 - For we do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of our tribulation that happened to us in Asia
1 Thess 3:4 - for even when we were with you, we said to you beforehand, that we are about to suffer tribulation, as also it did come to pass, and ye have known it.

and my personal favorite....

Revelation 1:9 - I, John, who also am your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and endurance, of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, because of the word of God.

-A</&#61951;&#12368;&#39093;&#4559;&#33467;&#43520;&#48384;&#3022;&#16577;&#27985;&#29750;&#4558;&#13440;&#43520;&#24576;&#64009;></&#61951;&#12368;&#39093;&#4559;&#33467;&#43520;&#48384;&#3022;&#16577;&#27985;&#29750;&#4558;&#13440;&#43520;&#24576;&#64009;></&#61951;&#12368;&#39093;&#4559;&#33467;&#43520;&#48384;&#3022;&#16577;&#27985;&#29750;&#4558;&#13440;&#43520;&#24576;&#64009;>
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by armothe
I have to side with Faithful1 on this issue. The bible does indeed state Christians would go through the tribulation:

Matthew 24:9 - (Christ to His disciples) then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name.
Acts 11:19 - Those, indeed, therefore, having been scattered abroad, from the tribulation that came after Stephen, went through unto Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, speaking the word to none except to Jews only;
2 Cor 1:8 - For we do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of our tribulation that happened to us in Asia
1 Thess 3:4 - for even when we were with you, we said to you beforehand, that we are about to suffer tribulation, as also it did come to pass, and ye have known it.

and my personal favorite....

Revelation 1:9 - I, John, who also am your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and endurance, of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, because of the word of God.

-A</&#61951;&#12368;&#39093;&#4559;&#33467;&#43520;&#48384;&#3022;&#16577;&#27985;&#29750;&#4558;&#13440;&#43520;&#24576;&#64009;></&#61951;&#12368;&#39093;&#4559;&#33467;&#43520;&#48384;&#3022;&#16577;&#27985;&#29750;&#4558;&#13440;&#43520;&#24576;&#64009;></&#61951;&#12368;&#39093;&#4559;&#33467;&#43520;&#48384;&#3022;&#16577;&#27985;&#29750;&#4558;&#13440;&#43520;&#24576;&#64009;>

Hello armothe,
I agree too.&nbsp; Sometimes people totally miss what I'm saying.&nbsp; I guess I speak like an alien sometimes, maybe because I am one. :wave:

I don't remember trying to define&nbsp;the word tribulation, but now that we are on the subject, I would say that there are two different varities of this word that I know of personally.&nbsp; One is our daily trials and tribulations, and the other is known as Jacob's trouble, which is God's future punishment for Israel for rejecting their Messiah.&nbsp; This punishment is for them not recognizing their deliverer in the day of His visitation.&nbsp; Some believe, myself included, that this tribulation will last seven years, but if you don't, that's okay because I don't wish to argue the matter anyway.&nbsp;

Also, if you read this thread through in it's entirety, you will also find that we are also in agreement on the fact that christians will indeed go through this coming tribulation, but I believe that some will escape.&nbsp; That part is debatable, but I also do not wish to argue the matter, or force anyone to believe it.&nbsp; That's their choice.&nbsp; Cheers!!
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by celtic_crusader
Hi THUNDER,
I hope we can finish our war against Islam before we all get taken away. We Gotta get ride of these maniacs before the rapture or the world will become Moslem ;):D

Shorly god doesn't want that ;)

Celtic

Everything is right on schedule celtic.&nbsp; The things in this world that totally shock and surprise us, they don't even phase our God.&nbsp; He created the end from the beginning, and I would guess that He is probably laughing at the foolishness of Satan, maybe even as we speak.&nbsp;&nbsp;

I can see that they are really causing a world wide disturbance, but as a christian,&nbsp;it really doesn't mean much to me that we wipe them out.&nbsp; That is a worldly issue, and God wants us to tend to His business, and not get distracted by worldly temptations.&nbsp; So I will leave this war for the citizens of this world, as for me, this world is not my home.&nbsp; I'm just passing thru my friend!!&nbsp; One day soon it's all going to come to a crashing halt, and on that day, my hope is to hear my Master say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cheers!!
 
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Jephunneh

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Originally posted by Ben johnson


If what you say is true, that the SAVED are not destined for TRIBULATION, then what of those who are saved DURING the Tribulation? If SAVED are not destined for wrath, will each be removed FROM the Tribulation AS HE IS SAVED???

Good question!

The application of faith concerning tribulation saints will be keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12) and endure unto the end (Matthew 24:13; cf. Hebrews 3:6,14) without taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11; 20:4). If they do that, they will be saved. If they take the mark, they will be lost no matter how much faith they have in Jesus (Hebrews 6:3-6;10:26).
 
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postrib

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...the rapture was at that time unrevealed. Mathew 24 is mostly referring to the tribulation...


In the pre-trib view, in Matthew 24:36-44, isn't Jesus referring to the rapture?&nbsp;&nbsp;

...the rapture that some&nbsp;believers like to combine with the second coming...


I believe all of the following passages speak of the same rapture at the same coming:

"I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

"They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52).
I believe the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture would require that the 2nd coming be a 3rd coming (Hebrews 9:28), that the last trumpet be the 9th from last (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 8:6; Matthew 24:31), and that the 1st resurrection be the 2nd (Revelation 20:4-6), so that it would not really make sense of scripture.

I believe the pre-trib doctrine is a false hope held by some unwilling to endure the sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3-5) that we Christians must "endure to the end" in the tribulation (Matthew 24:13) with "patience and faith" (Revelation 13:7-10; 14:12-13).&nbsp;


...It was Paul that revealed to them this mystery...


Note that all Paul said was a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51 was that "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," that is, that not all Christians will have to die before being changed into their immortal bodies. The rapture and resurrection themselves weren't a mystery, for Jesus had clearly already taught both: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3); "The Son of man coming... and shall gather together his elect" (Mark 13:26-27); "That every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). &nbsp;

...He did not know the time Himself...


"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

Note that in Matthew 24:36-44 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).&nbsp; &nbsp;

...we are not appointed to wrath...


Note that we Christians can be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) without being appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), for during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming God for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that God is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.

Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from God, to get us to believe that God is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from God, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive? "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

...Some christians make the claim that because God protected Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-Nego while they were in the firey furnace, then He will also protect us christians in the 7 year tribulation...


Note that some of us Christians will be persecuted and killed in the tribulation, both before and during the Antichrist's rule (Luke 21:16, 18; Revelation 6:11; Revelation 13:7-10; Revelation 14:12-13; Revelation 15:2; Revelation 20:4).

Some of us Christians will be protected on the earth during the final period of the tribulation by fleeing to a place prepared (Revelation 12:14, compare Matthew 24:15-16), for some of us must be "alive and remain" until Jesus' coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15).

...The story of Noah...


Note that just as God didn't have to rapture Noah into heaven to keep&nbsp;him from his wrath, so he won't have to rapture us into heaven to keep us from his wrath.

Noah was commanded to make extensive preparations on the earth in order to avoid God's wrath; he had to build a gigantic ark 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 4 1/2 stories high (Genesis 6:15), and he had to store up enough food to keep himself, 7 others in his family (Genesis 7:7), and every kind of animal alive in the ark (Genesis 6:19) for the 12 months and 10 days they would all remain in the ark (Genesis 7:11, 8:13-17) and until they could grow more food on the destroyed earth after the flood.

I believe Isaiah 26:20-21 could be a command to those of us Christians still alive on the earth right before the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out (Revelation 16). The 7 vials aren't directed at us Christians, so that our and our families' entering our "chambers" before the 7 vials and "shutting the doors" about us (Isaiah 26:20-21) could protect us in a way like Noah and his family's entering the ark before the flood and the "shutting" of "the door of the ark" protected them (Genesis 6:16, 7:16).

...the Parable of the Ten Virgins...


In the parable of the 10 virgins, some believe the wise virgins must be taken in a pre-trib rapture. But note that the door is closed at Jesus' coming (Matthew 25:10, compare Luke 13:24-28), which Jesus had just finished saying would be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.&nbsp;

...tribulation saints...

Note that no scripture refers to "tribulation saints," or says that there can be anyone saved outside of the body of Christ, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5); "ye are called in one body" (Colossians 3:15); "he is the saviour of the body" (Ephesians 5:23); "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Corinthians 12:13); "we, being many, are one body in Christ" (Romans 12:5); "now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular" (1 Corinthians 12:27); "the cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:16-17).

Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5).
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by postrib


In the pre-trib view, in Matthew 24:36-44, isn't Jesus referring to the rapture?&nbsp;&nbsp;


postrib,
If you can read this thread an still hold on to your beliefs, you got it bad dude!!&nbsp; You didn't read it all did you??&nbsp; But if you did, wait til you see what the Lord revealed to me last night when I was at work!!&nbsp; I will be posting it in a couple of days, or as soon as I can put words to what He showed me.&nbsp; This part really will blow your mind!!

I told you before, when you keep insisting on making real long and multi-subject posts, that I wouldn't reply, but I will take on your first point and squash the rest, because I don't have all day and some of us have jobs to go to.&nbsp; Sometimes I think you make them so long and impossible on purpose, just so no one will debate you.&nbsp; I'm not a debater, but I don't mind a question or two.

Now, about your question above.&nbsp;&nbsp; I believe He was talking about the rapture there, but the thing is, His disciples had no way of knowing it.&nbsp; They were even shocked when He died, which proves they were just&nbsp;barely even listening to Him.&nbsp; So yes,&nbsp; I believe He was talking about the rapture, but only indirectly.&nbsp; Cheers!!
 
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Ben johnson

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I believe the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture would require that the 2nd coming be a 3rd coming (Hebrews 9:28), that the last trumpet be the 9th from last (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 8:6; Matthew 24:31), and that the 1st resurrection be the 2nd (Revelation 20:4-6), so that it would not really make sense of scripture.
Exactly that---Jesus makes a 1.75 "coming" for the PRE-TRIB-RAPTURE. The "HOOPS" that need be "jumped through" to make this work, include " The SECOND COMING is in TWO STAGES, seven years apart; and, "It's not REALLY a second coming, 'cause He only stops in the CLOUDS." But there is record of only ONE APPEARANCE of Christ. "Coming in the SAME WAY as they saw Him LEAVE.

The DEAD IN CHRIST are raised FIRST, and THEN the living are raptured. If that's 7 years BEFORE Trib's-end, then why is the Trib's-end-resurrection, called the FIRST RESURRECTION? How can there be a SMALL first resurrection when the GREAT resurrection happened 7 years earlier?
If you can read this thread an still hold on to your beliefs, you got it bad dude!!
Which shall we believe? This thread, or Scripture? You say you don't wanna argue; Pre-Tribbers give us Rev3:10, which we correctly demonstrate to indicate "He will MAINTAIN/GUARD us THROUGH", not "take-us-out-of". They then assert 1Thess5:9, which we correctly demonstrate uses "WRATH" for "HELL" (identical to Romans2). BUt you won't argue, you cling to "not-destined-wrath" is "rapture"?

You believe in more than one "SECOND COMING" of Christ. Where in Scripture is this supported?

You believe that "Jesus died to rescue us from WORLD-TRIBULATION". Where in Scripture is this supported?

Scripture rather warns us, "they will hate you and kill you, friends and family, but do not worry---I shall give you what to say; endure to the end, and save your soul." There is no indication that this is for ONLY THE 144,000, or for ONLY the "saved-DURING-Trib" (denying the Scripture about the STRONG DELUSION so that those who WOULD not believe, then WILL not be ABLE to believe). The indication is that CHRISTIANS who REMAIN THROUGH the Tribulation, are to be STRONG...
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by Ben johnson
The DEAD IN CHRIST are raised FIRST, and THEN the living are raptured. If that's 7 years BEFORE Trib's-end, then why is the Trib's-end-resurrection, called the FIRST RESURRECTION? How can there be a SMALL first resurrection when the GREAT resurrection happened 7 years earlier?
Which shall we believe? This thread, or Scripture? You say you don't wanna argue; Pre-Tribbers give us Rev3:10, which we correctly demonstrate to indicate "He will MAINTAIN/GUARD us THROUGH", not "take-us-out-of".&nbsp;

Hey Ben,
I see you guys are grabbing for straws.&nbsp; What about the new evidence about Noah and Lot??&nbsp; You are making accusations that you can't back.&nbsp; I am not a pure pre-tribber, so you can't just assume I believe everything they do.&nbsp; I just got home from work, and the Lord has given me more proof.&nbsp; And one of them will disprove your post-trib belief that Christ will take us up and yank us back down.&nbsp; What is the purpose of that??&nbsp; Some call what you believe the YO-YO theory.&nbsp; I must say, they have a good point.

I don't maintain a "take-us-out-of" theory at all.&nbsp; You are missing it completely.&nbsp; I maintain a "keep you from the hour", which means the time of the test.&nbsp; Look at it again.&nbsp; We won't be here, but maybe you will.
 
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