Prof: White Anti-Racism Shares Traits with White Nationalist Hate Groups

Ana the Ist

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No, of course not. I'm just trying to keep the example simple so we don't get sidetracked arguing over which complaints we find legitimate and which things we don't.

It's a bit like me saying "Hey, what's wrong with whites forming groups in the interest of reducing racist anti-white rhetoric?"

You may see nothing wrong with that one issue, but the groups championing it are pushing for a lot of other stuff too.

For example,

Freedom Indiana

This group isn't just pushing for anti discrimination laws for gays in Indiana...they're also pushing some gender agenda. Maybe I agree with it...maybe I don't. Can I just support the one agenda and oppose the other? Will they stop advocating after they get this measure passed?
 
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Moral Orel

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It's a bit like me saying "Hey, what's wrong with whites forming groups in the interest of reducing racist anti-white rhetoric?"

You may see nothing wrong with that one issue, but the groups championing it are pushing for a lot of other stuff too.

For example,

Freedom Indiana

This group isn't just pushing for anti discrimination laws for gays in Indiana...they're also pushing some gender agenda. Maybe I agree with it...maybe I don't. Can I just support the one agenda and oppose the other? Will they stop advocating after they get this measure passed?
"Anti-white rhetoric"? Is that the best you got for a real issue facing us whites today? Like how some folk say I can't jump or dance, or joke about the size of my hands?

And yes, you can absolutely support one agenda of a group without supporting another agenda. Why couldn't you?
 
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Ana the Ist

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"Anti-white rhetoric"? Is that the best you got for a real issue facing us whites today? Like how some folk say I can't jump or dance, or joke about the size of my hands?

You may recall me saying that your personal opinion doesn't legitimize grievances. Well, it doesn't make them illegitimate either. What matters is that people believe it and are willing to band together for it.

If you're interested in having that discussion though...yeah, I do believe there's a disgusting amount of anti-white rhetoric, and racism, all over the media these days. It certainly wouldn't be hard to give you examples in case you've been living under a rock...and when those who spew it are shouting about their own grievances, I don't support them.

It's funny how quickly some folks are to mention the evils of anti-Semitic language...or how widely it's accepted that racism against blacks or other minorities is evil and those who spew it should be condemned.

Mention this kind of behavior about whites though, and all you get are scoffs and mockery. It's hard to side with racists...but just as hard to side with hypocrites IMO.

And yes, you can absolutely support one agenda of a group without supporting another agenda. Why couldn't you?

In theory, sure, but have you tried? Go to a LGBTQ forum and tell them how you support their anti discrimination laws in Indiana...but you can't support the gender related stuff. I'm sure you'll get a warm welcome and lots of people willing to rationally discuss your point of view.
 
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Ana the Ist

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"Anti-white rhetoric"? Is that the best you got for a real issue facing us whites today? Like how some folk say I can't jump or dance, or joke about the size of my hands?

And yes, you can absolutely support one agenda of a group without supporting another agenda. Why couldn't you?

Tell you what, I read an article today that by coincidence touches on a lot of the same stuff we're talking about. It's an opinion piece written by a social justice warrior...about social justice warriors...but I think much of it applies to identity politics as a whole. Tell me what you think...

Why I’ve Started to Fear My Fellow Social Justice Activists

Shutting down racist, sexist, and similar conversations protects vulnerable participants. But has it devolved into simply shutting down all dissenting ideas? When these tactics are liberally applied, without limit, inside marginalized groups, I believe they hold back movements by alienating both potential allies and their own members.

I am not the first nor the last to point out that these movements for liberation and justice are exhibiting the same oppressive patterns that we are fighting against in larger society.

It's as if, finally, some activists are starting to admit to and push back against the garbage that myself and others have been pointing out for years now.

Who knows? Maybe in another few years they'll realize they've been spewing as much racist garbage as these hate groups have and that they're only giving them fuel...not diminishing them they way they'd hoped.
 
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Moral Orel

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You may recall me saying that your personal opinion doesn't legitimize grievances. Well, it doesn't make them illegitimate either. What matters is that people believe it and are willing to band together for it.
So just everything is subjective then? Pretty weak. I didn't come on these boards expecting a debate to end in me possessing some new objective viewpoint on how people ought to act, did you?
If you're interested in having that discussion though...yeah, I do believe there's a disgusting amount of anti-white rhetoric, and racism, all over the media these days. It certainly wouldn't be hard to give you examples in case you've been living under a rock...and when those who spew it are shouting about their own grievances, I don't support them.

It's funny how quickly some folks are to mention the evils of anti-Semitic language...or how widely it's accepted that racism against blacks or other minorities is evil and those who spew it should be condemned.

Mention this kind of behavior about whites though, and all you get are scoffs and mockery. It's hard to side with racists...but just as hard to side with hypocrites IMO.
I'm not the guy you're going to find any sympathy from about the damage caused by words. I'm the guy who started a thread against sexual harassment laws and another thread defending racist jokes so you aren't going to find any inconsistencies in my views on speech here.

Losing your job because you belong to a group is actual harm. Being denied entrance to a school because you belong to a group is actual harm. Being denied goods and services because you belong to a group is actual harm. Receiving harsher sentences for crimes because you belong to a group is actual harm. If there's no actual harm, there's no legitimate reason to band together to fight injustice. And if it's a group that's targeted or lacking protections, why shouldn't the group band together to fight back?

And no, I'm not saying that every time someone makes a claim to any of these kinds of harm they're right, I'm just saying that whites have not and do not experience any of these kinds of harm in any meaningful amount.
In theory, sure, but have you tried? Go to a LGBTQ forum and tell them how you support their anti discrimination laws in Indiana...but you can't support the gender related stuff. I'm sure you'll get a warm welcome and lots of people willing to rationally discuss your point of view.
I know fightin' words when I hears 'em. Why would I go pick a fight? I'd get a warm welcome if I said I supported anti-discrimination laws and didn't mention whatever else I disagree with. And I bet I'd get a rational discussion of my point of view if I asked a question instead of stating my stance too.

But I don't have to go to an LGBT forum to support the cause I agree with anyways. In all honesty, that would be a pretty empty statement. I could call/write my state legislators, vote in line with people who would be more likely to support that kind of legislation, or even just answer in the affirmative on a public survey.
Tell you what, I read an article today that by coincidence touches on a lot of the same stuff we're talking about. It's an opinion piece written by a social justice warrior...about social justice warriors...but I think much of it applies to identity politics as a whole. Tell me what you think...

Why I’ve Started to Fear My Fellow Social Justice Activists
Ugh! I'm still not sure if that was a poe or not...
It's as if, finally, some activists are starting to admit to and push back against the garbage that myself and others have been pointing out for years now.

Who knows? Maybe in another few years they'll realize they've been spewing as much racist garbage as these hate groups have and that they're only giving them fuel...not diminishing them they way they'd hoped.
Some people act bad, okay. Maybe even being a part of these identity groups makes people more prone to act badly, or encourages bad behavior. That isn't the question though. The question is whether whites are morally right to form white's only groups if other groups are morally right to form exclusive groups. When whites are the target of actually harmful discriminatory behavior, then sure. Until then, it's just melodrama in my opinion.
 
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Ana the Ist

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So just everything is subjective then? Pretty weak. I didn't come on these boards expecting a debate to end in me possessing some new objective viewpoint on how people ought to act, did you?

Is everything subjective? Certainly not. Where we can point to an issue that is clearly an injustice...there isn't much subjectivity to it. For example, your example in Indiana. Another that comes to mind are some of those overturned voter ID laws which were shown to deliberately seek to keep blacks from voting. Those are clear examples of institutional discrimination.

I would however, also include situations where we're only speaking of words as they relate to actions. If, for example, a police officer were to shoot a black man in the course of duty and he was heard to say something like "that (racial slur) got what he deserved"...that police officer and his actions deserve some extra scrutiny (even if he were found to be legally right) because his words reveal the "possibility" of impropriety.

I'm not the guy you're going to find any sympathy from about the damage caused by words. I'm the guy who started a thread against sexual harassment laws and another thread defending racist jokes so you aren't going to find any inconsistencies in my views on speech here.

Sorry, but I can't really be expected to know everyone's personal views, can I? I imagine you'll think that I should've asked instead of assuming...so I'll ask about these issues so I don't mistakenly use one as an example...

You stated that if it's not an actual injustice, it's not a valid or legitimate grievance/issue/concern worthy of pursuing. Let me know if you think any of these are exceptions to that rule...

Gay and lesbian couples shouldn't be concerned about the term "civil union" as long as it carries all the legal weight of a marriage.

You disagree with all proponents of "safe spaces" since merely being in the presence of others different from yourself, or with different views, isn't an injustice.

Native Americans and others who find team mascots such as the Redskins distasteful have no legitimate gripe or reason to protest such things.

Those offended by confederate statues have no reason to protest since statues don't create injustice.

Those who protest against neo nazis for holding rallies or other such public assemblies have no legitimate complaints since holding a rally doesn't create injustice.

Conversely...

Would I be right in assuming that if, for example, the department of justice were to pressure a police department to "hire more black officers" you would be against that since it's denying all non-blacks a fair opportunity at those jobs?

Losing your job because you belong to a group is actual harm. Being denied entrance to a school because you belong to a group is actual harm. Being denied goods and services because you belong to a group is actual harm. Receiving harsher sentences for crimes because you belong to a group is actual harm. If there's no actual harm, there's no legitimate reason to band together to fight injustice. And if it's a group that's targeted or lacking protections, why shouldn't the group band together to fight back?



And no, I'm not saying that every time someone makes a claim to any of these kinds of harm they're right, I'm just saying that whites have not and do not experience any of these kinds of harm in any meaningful amount.

What's a "meaningful amount" and how do you know when some of these things occur?

Sure...if we look at a school's policies and find that they put a cap on how many asian students they admit, that's fairly obvious. Sure, if someone goes to buy a cake and someone says "we don't serve your kind here"...we know that they've been treated unfairly.

How do we know that someone has gotten a "harsher sentence" because of discriminatory practices? I would imagine it's rather rare for a judge to say they've punished someone more harshly for such reasons. I'm sure it's happened...but how can we possibly tell if it's often enough to be a meaningful amount?

You also included groups that "lack protections" but how do you know if that's a "legitimate issue" or not? The link I gave you previously included language that asked for protection for gender identities...which as far as I know is something that cannot be asked of someone in a job interview nor can it be determined by merely looking at someone. Is that a legitimate issue if no one has actually been discriminated against? Is it an issue because other groups have expressed a desire to discriminate against them?



I know fightin' words when I hears 'em. Why would I go pick a fight?

Do you consider simply stating your position as "picking a fight"? Sounds to me you recognize that dissent and open discussion isn't a prominent feature within identity politics.

I'd get a warm welcome if I said I supported anti-discrimination laws and didn't mention whatever else I disagree with. And I bet I'd get a rational discussion of my point of view if I asked a question instead of stating my stance too.

Yup...as long as you hide what you really think, you'll fit right in.

But I don't have to go to an LGBT forum to support the cause I agree with anyways. In all honesty, that would be a pretty empty statement. I could call/write my state legislators, vote in line with people who would be more likely to support that kind of legislation, or even just answer in the affirmative on a public survey.

And we're right back at single issue advocacy.

Ugh! I'm still not sure if that was a poe or not...

Some people act bad, okay. Maybe even being a part of these identity groups makes people more prone to act badly, or encourages bad behavior. That isn't the question though. The question is whether whites are morally right to form white's only groups if other groups are morally right to form exclusive groups. When whites are the target of actually harmful discriminatory behavior, then sure. Until then, it's just melodrama in my opinion.

Need they only be a target? Or do they need to wait on said discrimination to happen?
 
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Moral Orel

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Sorry, but I can't really be expected to know everyone's personal views, can I? I imagine you'll think that I should've asked instead of assuming...so I'll ask about these issues so I don't mistakenly use one as an example...
No, I didn't expect you to read my mind. I just wanted to make it clear that issues involving speech aren't serious enough to me. I thought you might have noticed those threads, though I don't think you participated in either of them. Of course, the quote in my signature is a hint in that direction.
You stated that if it's not an actual injustice, it's not a valid or legitimate grievance/issue/concern worthy of pursuing. Let me know if you think any of these are exceptions to that rule...
Oh... You're trying to get people to hate me around here! I'll answer your examples, but I'm going to preface them with a disclaimer. If you say nasty things to people or even just around people that you know are going to be upset by them, you're a jerk. Just because I may say that some people shouldn't be so upset about things, doesn't mean that I'm saying the people they're upset with are good, decent folk.
Gay and lesbian couples shouldn't be concerned about the term "civil union" as long as it carries all the legal weight of a marriage.
I used to think that was fine. In practice, I don't think you can cover all those bases though. What changed my mind was when I heard about a gay couple where one person was in the hospital due to some illness a lot and constantly in severe pain. She wasn't allowed to have her partner by her side because she wasn't considered "family" by hospital policy since she wasn't her "spouse". It seems easier to make all unions "marriage" than to try and find all the places someone might abuse the difference and address them. On top of that, if the government created two separate kinds of unions like this, it would be a nod to placating religious beliefs, and I would have a problem with that.

But yes, hypothetically, if "marriage" and "civil union" were equal in every single way but title, then there would be no good reason to complain based on any sort of "second class" arguments. I still wouldn't like the religious implications though.
You disagree with all proponents of "safe spaces" since merely being in the presence of others different from yourself, or with different views, isn't an injustice.
That isn't how I understand "safe spaces" so I'm not sure how to answer this one. I thought anyone was allowed to go into a safe space, but what you do there is limited. You make it sound as though certain people are blocked from entrance, and as far as I know that isn't the case.

The way I understand it though, it just seems like a service some students want their school to offer. Give them a place free from arguing and debating so they can color and play with Play-Dough. I don't think people should demand it, nor do I see a good reason to have it, but if there's a sufficient demand, then I don't see why a school wouldn't offer it, much like they would offer designated areas for playing hockey-sack in the quad.

*I'm not conflating "demand" there. I'm intentionally using the word in two different ways.
Native Americans and others who find team mascots such as the Redskins distasteful have no legitimate gripe or reason to protest such things.
Oh people aren't going to like this. I hope you're the only one reading it, but no. I don't see that as any big deal. The team's owners are jerks for not caring and lying about how it isn't offensive, but it isn't deserving of protest. Just hate the Redskins and root for them to lose and move on.
Those offended by confederate statues have no reason to protest since statues don't create injustice.
We discussed this one, actually. I don't think those statues should matter to anyone.
Those who protest against neo nazis for holding rallies or other such public assemblies have no legitimate complaints since holding a rally doesn't create injustice.
You may call special pleading, but this one is different. If a group gets together to say something, anyone who wants to show up and say, "No, that's bad" has every right to. It's just people talking, so who cares?
Would I be right in assuming that if, for example, the department of justice were to pressure a police department to "hire more black officers" you would be against that since it's denying all non-blacks a fair opportunity at those jobs?
Nah, not enough context for that one. What if the town has a large black population, with a decent level of education, and a large number of applicants, and has never hired anyone that isn't white. Something is almost certainly wrong there. Blanket quotas on myriad business types based solely on population makeup: absolutely wrong.
What's a "meaningful amount" and how do you know when some of these things occur?
Most Americans aren't overtly racist. Most Americans are white. And there are more whites in a position to hire and fire than there are minorities. There's a much higher percentage of whites that are doing just fine than the percentage of minorities. So how many instances of a white being discriminated against for being white by a minority could there really be?
How do we know that someone has gotten a "harsher sentence" because of discriminatory practices? I would imagine it's rather rare for a judge to say they've punished someone more harshly for such reasons. I'm sure it's happened...but how can we possibly tell if it's often enough to be a meaningful amount?
You aren't going to find much evidence on a case by case basis, but it can be inferred from statistics. And if it can be inferred from statistics, then it's likely to be a meaningful amount.
You also included groups that "lack protections" but how do you know if that's a "legitimate issue" or not? The link I gave you previously included language that asked for protection for gender identities...which as far as I know is something that cannot be asked of someone in a job interview nor can it be determined by merely looking at someone. Is that a legitimate issue if no one has actually been discriminated against? Is it an issue because other groups have expressed a desire to discriminate against them?
We could have just written a law stating, "You can only fire someone because they're a bad employee or you can't afford to pay them". Instead we took the "You can't fire someone for this reason or that reason" approach. Until all the ways people might discriminate are covered, I'm all for expanding that list if there's any reason to think it might happen. Whites are already covered. Sexuality and gender identity aren't yet. What other group might need protecting in the future? I dunno.
Specifically to your question though, it wouldn't be irrational to expect an employer to find out after some time that an employee is transgender. They shouldn't be able to fire them for that when they do. It doesn't matter that they likely wouldn't know when they hire them.
Do you consider simply stating your position as "picking a fight"? Sounds to me you recognize that dissent and open discussion isn't a prominent feature within identity politics.
On an internet forum? LoL, ya, stating my position is picking a fight.
Yup...as long as you hide what you really think, you'll fit right in.
I don't feel a need to tell everyone everything I think. Do you?
And we're right back at single issue advocacy.
Huh? Identity groups are going to have a lot of issues, and I'm going to pick and choose which ones I agree with or find legitimate enough to care.
Need they only be a target? Or do they need to wait on said discrimination to happen?
They need to be a target and lacking protection. I should have reiterated "protection" as I mentioned earlier, but I'm all for being preventative instead of reactionary, waiting for discrimination to happen.
 
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Ana the Ist

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No, I didn't expect you to read my mind. I just wanted to make it clear that issues involving speech aren't serious enough to me. I thought you might have noticed those threads, though I don't think you participated in either of them. Of course, the quote in my signature is a hint in that direction.

Oh... You're trying to get people to hate me around here! I'll answer your examples, but I'm going to preface them with a disclaimer. If you say nasty things to people or even just around people that you know are going to be upset by them, you're a jerk. Just because I may say that some people shouldn't be so upset about things, doesn't mean that I'm saying the people they're upset with are good, decent folk.

I used to think that was fine. In practice, I don't think you can cover all those bases though. What changed my mind was when I heard about a gay couple where one person was in the hospital due to some illness a lot and constantly in severe pain. She wasn't allowed to have her partner by her side because she wasn't considered "family" by hospital policy since she wasn't her "spouse". It seems easier to make all unions "marriage" than to try and find all the places someone might abuse the difference and address them. On top of that, if the government created two separate kinds of unions like this, it would be a nod to placating religious beliefs, and I would have a problem with that.

But yes, hypothetically, if "marriage" and "civil union" were equal in every single way but title, then there would be no good reason to complain based on any sort of "second class" arguments. I still wouldn't like the religious implications though.

That isn't how I understand "safe spaces" so I'm not sure how to answer this one. I thought anyone was allowed to go into a safe space, but what you do there is limited. You make it sound as though certain people are blocked from entrance, and as far as I know that isn't the case.

The way I understand it though, it just seems like a service some students want their school to offer. Give them a place free from arguing and debating so they can color and play with Play-Dough. I don't think people should demand it, nor do I see a good reason to have it, but if there's a sufficient demand, then I don't see why a school wouldn't offer it, much like they would offer designated areas for playing hockey-sack in the quad.

*I'm not conflating "demand" there. I'm intentionally using the word in two different ways.

Oh people aren't going to like this. I hope you're the only one reading it, but no. I don't see that as any big deal. The team's owners are jerks for not caring and lying about how it isn't offensive, but it isn't deserving of protest. Just hate the Redskins and root for them to lose and move on.

We discussed this one, actually. I don't think those statues should matter to anyone.

You may call special pleading, but this one is different. If a group gets together to say something, anyone who wants to show up and say, "No, that's bad" has every right to. It's just people talking, so who cares?

If it's just people talking...sure. If it's people trying to deny other people their rights...that's another thing.

Thanks for clearing up the rest though.

Nah, not enough context for that one. What if the town has a large black population, with a decent level of education, and a large number of applicants, and has never hired anyone that isn't white. Something is almost certainly wrong there. Blanket quotas on myriad business types based solely on population makeup: absolutely wrong.

I imagine if I said there's no evidence of hiring discrimination...you'd be against it.

Most Americans aren't overtly racist. Most Americans are white. And there are more whites in a position to hire and fire than there are minorities. There's a much higher percentage of whites that are doing just fine than the percentage of minorities. So how many instances of a white being discriminated against for being white by a minority could there really be?

I'll come back to that.

You aren't going to find much evidence on a case by case basis, but it can be inferred from statistics. And if it can be inferred from statistics, then it's likely to be a meaningful amount.

Well lot's of things can be inferred from statistics. We can infer, for example, that men commit more crimes than women. We can infer that blacks commit more crimes than whites.

I would imagine though, that you would be against making laws or policies based on mere inferences...right? You wouldn't be in favor of, for example, harsher sentences for men and blacks because of statistical inference?

We could have just written a law stating, "You can only fire someone because they're a bad employee or you can't afford to pay them". Instead we took the "You can't fire someone for this reason or that reason" approach. Until all the ways people might discriminate are covered, I'm all for expanding that list if there's any reason to think it might happen. Whites are already covered. Sexuality and gender identity aren't yet. What other group might need protecting in the future? I dunno.

So...if a group lacks protection, they're right to pursue their interests as a group...even if there's no real evidence that the protection is needed (no real evidence they're being discriminated against) because perhaps some other group (in this case, certain religious groups) may try to discriminate against them in the future?

Specifically to your question though, it wouldn't be irrational to expect an employer to find out after some time that an employee is transgender. They shouldn't be able to fire them for that when they do. It doesn't matter that they likely wouldn't know when they hire them.

On an internet forum? LoL, ya, stating my position is picking a fight.

Maybe I'm naive...but I never saw it that way.

I don't feel a need to tell everyone everything I think. Do you?

No...but if I was to support a group on their agenda, and I disagreed with a part of that agenda, I would tell them.

Huh? Identity groups are going to have a lot of issues, and I'm going to pick and choose which ones I agree with or find legitimate enough to care.

They need to be a target and lacking protection. I should have reiterated "protection" as I mentioned earlier, but I'm all for being preventative instead of reactionary, waiting for discrimination to happen.

Well with regards to protection...the BLM (and black activists in general) pushes for grievances they already have a lot of protection for. Its already illegal to treat them differently in just about every level of society...on the job, in the justice system, at the bank, etc.

So either you disagree with all of that as well...or perhaps it's ok to pursue the interests of your group, against grievances, real or imagined, even those which may only happen in the future, whether you already have legal protection or not...

...or it isn't?
 
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Moral Orel

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I imagine if I said there's no evidence of hiring discrimination...you'd be against it.
No evidence at all, yep, I'd be against it. I consider the hypothetical I just described to be evidence though, so we may disagree on what constitutes as "evidence".
Well lot's of things can be inferred from statistics. We can infer, for example, that men commit more crimes than women. We can infer that blacks commit more crimes than whites.

I would imagine though, that you would be against making laws or policies based on mere inferences...right? You wouldn't be in favor of, for example, harsher sentences for men and blacks because of statistical inference?
The justice system is a complicated beast with a lot of problems. I'm not in favor of harsher sentences at all, so this discussion could go in a million different directions.

But just speaking to inferring things from statistics, you could infer things from shallow statistics like you've described. I wouldn't ever say we should make some law or policy based on one single statistic. But I believe that cases can be built on a large amount of stats from a lot of different angles. And yes, there are going to be times when mere stats aren't enough. But I think there absolutely can be times when they are enough on their own.
So...if a group lacks protection, they're right to pursue their interests as a group...even if there's no real evidence that the protection is needed (no real evidence they're being discriminated against) because perhaps some other group (in this case, certain religious groups) may try to discriminate against them in the future?
I'll give a tentative "yes" here. We were talking in the context of anti-discrimination laws, and merely adding another group to the list, so I don't know which ways you're likely planning on applying this to other kinds of situations, but I'll probably agree with them too.
Well with regards to protection...the BLM (and black activists in general) pushes for grievances they already have a lot of protection for. Its already illegal to treat them differently in just about every level of society...on the job, in the justice system, at the bank, etc.

So either you disagree with all of that as well...or perhaps it's ok to pursue the interests of your group, against grievances, real or imagined, even those which may only happen in the future, whether you already have legal protection or not...

...or it isn't?
Imagined? No. If we're talking about adding four words to an existing law to get your group the exact same protections as other groups, that's one thing. If we're talking about all new laws or policies or procedures, then yes, more than an imagined threat is necessary.

Remember all the way back at the beginning of this post we were talking about hiring practices. I agree that if there's zero evidence of any kind that no one should be meddling in hiring practices. But even though there's a law on the books, that doesn't mean a person in HR can't write "not a fit" on an application because they don't like a person's race. So imagining that as completely possible, doesn't justify doing something about it just because it can be imagined.

When the idea behind a law is to prevent people from being fired for bad reasons, but the approach you used when you wrote it was to list the bad reasons instead of the good reasons, then adding protections for imagined threats is how you make that law more in line with what you want it to say.
 
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Ana the Ist

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No evidence at all, yep, I'd be against it. I consider the hypothetical I just described to be evidence though, so we may disagree on what constitutes as "evidence".

Fair enough...but clearly we're headed back towards what I mentioned regarding subjectivity and how the only thing important is that those making grievances believe in them.

The justice system is a complicated beast with a lot of problems. I'm not in favor of harsher sentences at all, so this discussion could go in a million different directions.

But just speaking to inferring things from statistics, you could infer things from shallow statistics like you've described. I wouldn't ever say we should make some law or policy based on one single statistic. But I believe that cases can be built on a large amount of stats from a lot of different angles. And yes, there are going to be times when mere stats aren't enough. But I think there absolutely can be times when they are enough on their own.

It's hard for me to agree...but perhaps it's because I spent a year in college as a sociology major...so it's weaknesses in being able to draw accurate conclusions is highly apparent to me.

For example, when BLM started getting a lot of national attention after Ferguson...studies were in a lot of media outlets that drew the conclusion that racist police were killing black men like hotcakes because of racism.

Then later studies showed that, well...maybe they weren't actually killing black men at a rate disproportionate to their numbers...but police were quicker to use force or potentially harm them in non-lethal ways and that surely must've been from racism.

Then later studies showed that, well...police did hurt more minorities...but it was actually just because their rate of encountering them over violent crimes (or in potentially dangerous situations) was higher because of the fact that they committed more violent street level crimes. Accounting for that...it didn't seem as if race played any role in police interactions in any level of police's use of force.

People tend to agree with studies that simply agree with their previously held beliefs. Sociologists are great at gathering data, less so at analyzing it, and even much less so at drawing conclusions from it.

I'll give a tentative "yes" here. We were talking in the context of anti-discrimination laws, and merely adding another group to the list, so I don't know which ways you're likely planning on applying this to other kinds of situations, but I'll probably agree with them too.

I'll come back to this.

Imagined? No. If we're talking about adding four words to an existing law to get your group the exact same protections as other groups, that's one thing. If we're talking about all new laws or policies or procedures, then yes, more than an imagined threat is necessary.

Remember all the way back at the beginning of this post we were talking about hiring practices. I agree that if there's zero evidence of any kind that no one should be meddling in hiring practices. But even though there's a law on the books, that doesn't mean a person in HR can't write "not a fit" on an application because they don't like a person's race. So imagining that as completely possible, doesn't justify doing something about it just because it can be imagined threat is necessary

Your position was that it isn't moral for whites to form as a group because of a lack of significant issues that can warrant them forming up and pursuing their interests.

As I've tried to pin down what exactly makes an issue "legitimate"...doing so have turned into a twisty "but if" kind of explanation. I'm only using the word "imagined issue" to refer to those issues identity groups have brought forth which cannot be easily proven but still appear as a concern for the group. It may be a real issue...it may be a perceived one...so that's why I used the word "imagined."

As you've tried to define a legitimate issue...the point you're at now basically denies about 80-90% (by my guess) of issues that identity groups push for some resolution or change for.

For example, the BLM may have a legitimate complaint regarding police transparency...but certainly not to the extent they complain about. Too much transparency too early could compromise an investigation and it almost certainly compromises the chances of a fair trial.

Other issues like losing a job for being black, not getting a job for being black, illegal treatment at the hands of cops, unfair sentences because of race, redlining, unfair loan practices, unfair treatment as students, and many many more issues/grievances already have legal protections for. By your criteria...the vast majority of issues black activists argue for aren't "legitimate" in your eyes. I'm not saying these things don't happen...but there are legal avenues for addressing them and getting justice (it happens). If you really want me to...I can show the same about the vast majority of identity groups.

So when you asked me what's so wrong with identity politics...there you have it. By your own criteria, the overwhelming majority of issues they advocate for/against aren't even legitimate.

If you were thinking of responding to this with the idea that even though protections are in place, and legal means for addressing injustices exist, it's still a legitimate issue if enough people were being actively targeted for unfair treatment in spite of legal protections being in place, I'll just warn you now...it wouldn't be difficult for me to show that whites are being targeted by groups for unfair treatment despite legal protections being in place.

If however, at this point you feel like perhaps I've shown the subjectivity of it all rather sufficiently...I'll be kind enough to move onto what I think are the ideological/philosophical errors that are essentially the foundation of identity politics.
 
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Moral Orel

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Your position was that it isn't moral for whites to form as a group because of a lack of significant issues that can warrant them forming up and pursuing their interests.
And it still is. Don't forget that this is my position. I'm not claiming that most of what identity groups push for is legitimate, and I'm not claiming that forming identity groups doesn't have it's problems.
As you've tried to define a legitimate issue...the point you're at now basically denies about 80-90% (by my guess) of issues that identity groups push for some resolution or change for.
That would have been my guess before we started discussing this. Remember, I only said that they have "some" legitimate complaints. If you've got the motivation to actually be an activist for anything, you're likely to be a more... emotional person to begin with. So it's no surprise that a lot of extra issues that I think people are being overly sensitive about come along as baggage.
If you were thinking of responding to this with the idea that even though protections are in place, and legal means for addressing injustices exist, it's still a legitimate issue if enough people were being actively targeted for unfair treatment in spite of legal protections being in place, I'll just warn you now...it wouldn't be difficult for me to show that whites are being targeted by groups for unfair treatment despite legal protections being in place.
I'm pretty sure that's what I was asking for to begin with. Show me some system that's in place that causes whites to suffer some actual harm that the pre-existing protections can't address.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I'm pretty sure that's what I was asking for to begin with. Show me some system that's in place that causes whites to suffer some actual harm that the pre-existing protections can't address.

I didn't say "system that's in place"...I said that certain groups are targeting whites for unfair treatment. I can only guess that you've changed the wording since you don't think that's sufficient reason to group up and push back against it.

Well what's confusing me is that you've singled out whites...saying that they're the only ones without a legitimate reason to form a group. Yet when you listed a bunch of reasons you thought were legitimate...


Losing your job because you belong to a group is actual harm. Being denied entrance to a school because you belong to a group is actual harm. Being denied goods and services because you belong to a group is actual harm. Receiving harsher sentences for crimes because you belong to a group is actual harm. If there's no actual harm, there's no legitimate reason to band together to fight injustice. And if it's a group that's targeted or lacking protections, why shouldn't the group band together to fight back?

And no, I'm not saying that every time someone makes a claim to any of these kinds of harm they're right, I'm just saying that whites have not and do not experience any of these kinds of harm in any meaningful amount.

You made it sound like these were legitimate reasons. Since "protections" are in place to offer justice/restitution for all of these things for blacks, latinos, asians, and literally every other racial group...would you now say that it's not just immoral for whites to form a group to pursue their interests, but it's also immoral for every racial group to pursue their interests?
 
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Ana the Ist

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And it still is. Don't forget that this is my position. I'm not claiming that most of what identity groups push for is legitimate, and I'm not claiming that forming identity groups doesn't have it's problems.

That would have been my guess before we started discussing this. Remember, I only said that they have "some" legitimate complaints. If you've got the motivation to actually be an activist for anything, you're likely to be a more... emotional person to begin with. So it's no surprise that a lot of extra issues that I think people are being overly sensitive about come along as baggage.

I'm pretty sure that's what I was asking for to begin with. Show me some system that's in place that causes whites to suffer some actual harm that the pre-existing protections can't address.

To put it simply, all the laws which protect against discrimination against whites also protect every other racial group. So why single out whites? Why not just say that it's wrong for any racial/ethnic group to form together and pursue their interests?
 
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Moral Orel

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I didn't say "system that's in place"...I said that certain groups are targeting whites for unfair treatment. I can only guess that you've changed the wording since you don't think that's sufficient reason to group up and push back against it.
Look back at our discussion. Sometimes we were talking about race, sometimes we were talking about LGBT people. One group has protections the other does not. If you are lacking in protections, merely being targeted is sufficient to warrant action. If you already have protections then you need evidence that you are actually experiencing harm.

To be more specific, there are identity groups formed around Christianity that have targeted LGBT people by wanting laws that allow them to discriminate because of their religious beliefs, and current law says that is A-O-K. That's all that is needed to add four words to an already existing law to give them the same protections every other group has.

We also touched on quotas, remember? And if there's no evidence that anything is amiss, the fact that some people are out there saying bad things about one race or another is no reason to rise to action to address it.

I phrased it that way because I was pretty sure you were going to conflate issues of people without protections and people with protections.
 
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Look back at our discussion. Sometimes we were talking about race, sometimes we were talking about LGBT people. One group has protections the other does not. If you are lacking in protections, merely being targeted is sufficient to warrant action. If you already have protections then you need evidence that you are actually experiencing harm.

To be more specific, there are identity groups formed around Christianity that have targeted LGBT people by wanting laws that allow them to discriminate because of their religious beliefs, and current law says that is A-O-K. That's all that is needed to add four words to an already existing law to give them the same protections every other group has.

We also touched on quotas, remember? And if there's no evidence that anything is amiss, the fact that some people are out there saying bad things one race or another is no reason to rise to action to address it.

I phrased it that way because I was pretty sure you were going to conflate issues of people without protections and people with protections.
But that's the thing, no particular group is protected. Laws against attacking or discriminating against someone based on their sexual orientation or gender identity is not exclusive to the LGBTQ community, it protects everyone. The problem really is that no one was attacking attacking heterosexual or cis-gender people for simply being who they are. I understand the effect is the LGBTQ community becoming protected, but no one had to worry about sexual orientation being targeted until the idiots attacking homosexuals started acting up. There are claims that people are without protections and that is simply wrong; for instance, being white does not mean that hate crime laws cannot be applied if you are attacked based on your skin color (and the statistics bear that out), it's just there a many minority groups that bear the brunt of these attacks. Mind you, these people that complain about laws protecting African Americans, immigrants, the LGBTQ community, have nothing to say when these laws are applied to Christians or Jews (well, except for the anti-Semitic folks out there).
 
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I was disappointed to see that the similarities consisted of vague generalities that the professor claimed to be present in both groups based on his personal assessment.

At least give me some p-values to make it look like your pseudo-science has some rigor behind it. Give me six hours and I can find you several low p-values from samples of random noise, so there's no excuse not to cook up some of them to bolster your rhetorical claims.

I mean, even phrenologists dressed up their statements with enough psychobabble to make it sound like something objective and authoritative.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Look back at our discussion. Sometimes we were talking about race, sometimes we were talking about LGBT people. One group has protections the other does not. If you are lacking in protections, merely being targeted is sufficient to warrant action. If you already have protections then you need evidence that you are actually experiencing harm.

To be more specific, there are identity groups formed around Christianity that have targeted LGBT people by wanting laws that allow them to discriminate because of their religious beliefs, and current law says that is A-O-K. That's all that is needed to add four words to an already existing law to give them the same protections every other group has.

We also touched on quotas, remember? And if there's no evidence that anything is amiss, the fact that some people are out there saying bad things about one race or another is no reason to rise to action to address it.

I phrased it that way because I was pretty sure you were going to conflate issues of people without protections and people with protections.

Ok...then why single out whites for "wrongly" forming a group when every race enjoys the same protections they do? Isn't it wrong then for all races to form identity groups?
 
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Moral Orel

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Ok...then why single out whites for "wrongly" forming a group when every race enjoys the same protections they do? Isn't it wrong then for all races to form identity groups?
Like I said, if you already have protection, then the amount of evidence required to warrant concern is higher. I didn't say that protections written in the law are automatically sufficient. There are ways of circumventing the law without breaking it, and if that is occurring in some sort of systemic problem, then that is a valid concern. Do whites have an issue like that? Are they statistically disadvantaged in any area in any way that I can't merely say, "Well of course, there's more of us"? Anything at all more than "some people say awful stuff about us on TV"?

Last I checked, us whites have a better chance of being employed, a better chance of being above the poverty line, a better chance of not being in prison, etc. What do we, as a race, have to complain about?

Now the issues that minorities and other identity groups have that make them more likely to be on the bad side of these and other things can be debated, sure. We can argue about what amount of racism goes into being the cause of these problems. But there's good evidence things ought to be done differently in a lot of different areas. There's nothing for whites, as a group, to complain about.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Like I said, if you already have protection, then the amount of evidence required to warrant concern is higher. I didn't say that protections written in the law are automatically sufficient. There are ways of circumventing the law without breaking it, and if that is occurring in some sort of systemic problem, then that is a valid concern. Do whites have an issue like that? Are they statistically disadvantaged in any area in any way that I can't merely say, "Well of course, there's more of us"? Anything at all more than "some people say awful stuff about us on TV"?

Last I checked, us whites have a better chance of being employed, a better chance of being above the poverty line, a better chance of not being in prison, etc. What do we, as a race, have to complain about?

Now the issues that minorities and other identity groups have that make them more likely to be on the bad side of these and other things can be debated, sure. We can argue about what amount of racism goes into being the cause of these problems. But there's good evidence things ought to be done differently in a lot of different areas. There's nothing for whites, as a group, to complain about.

And yet in your mind, this isn't subjective?

So even though blacks enjoy the same legal protections as whites...the possibility that these legal protections are being circumvented (although we have no way of knowing how often) more often than it is for whites (again, in spite of being something we cannot know) means they have "legitimate" concerns and whites don't?

And you called my position weak...
 
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Moral Orel

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And yet in your mind, this isn't subjective?

So even though blacks enjoy the same legal protections as whites...the possibility that these legal protections are being circumvented (although we have no way of knowing how often) more often than it is for whites (again, in spite of being something we cannot know) means they have "legitimate" concerns and whites don't?

And you called my position weak...
I bolded the parts you're just making up. That's why your position is weak.

First you have to show that you're disadvantaged in some way that causes actual harm. This is objectively impossible for whites.

Then you show evidence that race is an important factor in causing that harm. This is where you're just flat out denying that any evidence exists whatsoever.
 
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