Hi everyone,
I've come across some serious problems with purgatory...I found all the other doctrines about Mary, the Pope, Sacred Tradition, Eucharist, etc to be eye-opening. But I don't accept purgatory..
Actually, I'm curious to know something about purgatory: Does the Catholic church teach that it's a place where purification takes place with the assumption that Christians died with a particular sin?
If so, where does the Bible teach that? I looked at 2 Maccabees 12:39-46 and it's referring to a resurrection, which seems to point to the resurrection of the dead in Revelation 20. 2 Maccabees 12:4talks about 'atonement for the dead', but I don't see how this talks about a purification process. Is this to say that the prayer IS the atonement? Or is 2 Mac. 12:46 referring to a real sacrifice of an animal?
Also, I noticed something: Hahn was saying that purgatory is from the latin, 'purgatorio' and in greek it's 'hades' and in Hebrew it's 'sheol'. The problem I see is that sheol (to my understanding) wasn't a place of purification, but rather a place where all the old testament saints remained after they died, and they wouldn't be in heaven until the 'dead are raised' (1 Thess 4:16), as in the 'first resurrection' (Rev 20:5), when hades would be put away (Rev 20:13). What do I find wrong with this you ask? Well, I get some impression that's not what Catholics teach about 'hades/sheol/purgatory'.
To my knowledge, Jews did not regard sheol/hades/purgatory as a place of purification but rather, in the words of Josephus, "... souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead". This is consistent with Rev 20:13 and 1 Thess 4:16. Josephus mentions absolutely nothing about a purification process.
Also, Jesus was apparently in the 'grave' (aka sheol/hades/purgatory) after he died (Acts 2:31). So why would Jesus be in hades/purgatory if he needed to be 'purged' from sin, which he obviously didn't have? Scripture also says in Acts 2:31 that Jesus's body did not suffer decay, as if to say that those who were in sheol/hades/purgatory do suffer decay. And scripture says that Jesus experienced the 'agony of death' (Acts 2:24). The STING of death (1 Cor 15:56). Both passages are clearly referring to the grave/hades (Acts 2:27, 1 Cor 15:54-55).
Another thing I came across was 1 Cor 3:11-15, which says in the middle of the passage, "the fire will test the quality of each man's work" (1 Cor 3:13). It seems Catholics say that the 'fire' implies the existence of purgatory since it's not referring to hell fire.
But from the context, it doesn't sound like it has anything to do with purgatory or hell fire for that matter. If anything, it refers to the context of living a godly life and maintaining a strong foundations for Christians who were abiding in him. It appears to parallel with Luke 6:46-49, John 15:1-17, and closely relates with Matt 25:14-30. Also I don't think fire is to be taken literally...neither is the rest of 1 Cor 3:11-15. Based on the context, Paul is referring to building a foundation, and speaks metaphorically in describing how the foundation is built, whether it be gold, wood, straw, etc. I don't Paul is telling us to literally place gold, or wood, or straw upon believers. So when he says, 'fire' it's obviously not a literal fire either. If anything the 'fire' may refer to the tribulations of the Christians. Here's what I mean:
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
Paul uses the word 'Day', which is clearly referring to the day of the lord (i.e. at the 2nd coming). Matt 25:14-30 talks about the ten talents and the 3 men. One of them didn't do a thing with what was entrusted upon him. At the end of the parable we learn he 'failed'. In other words, he was thrown in the darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (i.e. hell). So when we re-read 1 Cor 3:11-15, 'as one escaping through the flames' refers to those who barely make it through. In other words, those who did the bare minimum. But for those who built a strong foundation, he's promised a reward (1 Cor 3:14). So I don't see how this has anything to do with purgatory. But rather it has to do with reaping various rewards (in heaven) or punishments (in hell) for sowing in such things. Honestly, to me, purgatory sounds......ridiculous.
I don't see why there's a need for a purification process in the afterlife. One brother made the following statement which I actually agree with:
"'The what-if a man sins and immediately dies scenario' is concept/concern developed from the erronious lens of Catholicized Purgatorio. There are simply various states of rewards and punishments in Heaven and for those in Hell."
Furthermore, I believe sheol/hades/purgatory does not apply for today anyway, since I believe it's in the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). Why?
Because Jesus said His second coming would be in the lifetime of the apostles (Matt 24:30,34) and that some of his disciples would actually be alive to see it (Matt 16:27-28, John 21:20-22). Jesus also said his disciples would not go through all the cities of Israel before he would come as a result of being persecuted (Matt 10:23). He even said that the high priest would live to see His second coming (Matt 26:64)
The apostles unanimously agreed that they were living the last days (Heb 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20, 1 John 2:18). And apostles Paul specifically told the Corinthians to "not marry, act as if you weren't married, don't be happy, don't mourn" (1 Cor 7:27-30). Why? Because the time was short (1 Cor 7:29) and the fashion of the world was passing away (1 Cor 7:31). Was Paul crazy?
You all may be wondering: What is the point to this. It's clearly this: Jesus and all the apostles believed they were living the last days. And Jesus said that the dead/living would be judged as his coming. And Revelation clearly states that the Hadean realm would be put away when the dead/living were judged.
I firmly believe Jesus and the apostles were indeed living the last days (of biblical Judaism), and that the living and the dead were judged, and that the Hadean realm was indeed put away. Otherwise, I'd have to accept the fact that Jesus screwed up and fails the test of the prophet (Deut 18:20-22), which would make me question my faith in Christ if he screwed up to do what he promised he did (Matt 16:27-28, Matt 24:30,34, Matt 10:23, Matt 26:64)
So for me, I can't accept Purgatory for those reasons. I have to hold on to the protestant view, since I find the Catholic understanding of purgatory to be unbiblical.
-Jason
I've come across some serious problems with purgatory...I found all the other doctrines about Mary, the Pope, Sacred Tradition, Eucharist, etc to be eye-opening. But I don't accept purgatory..
Actually, I'm curious to know something about purgatory: Does the Catholic church teach that it's a place where purification takes place with the assumption that Christians died with a particular sin?
If so, where does the Bible teach that? I looked at 2 Maccabees 12:39-46 and it's referring to a resurrection, which seems to point to the resurrection of the dead in Revelation 20. 2 Maccabees 12:4talks about 'atonement for the dead', but I don't see how this talks about a purification process. Is this to say that the prayer IS the atonement? Or is 2 Mac. 12:46 referring to a real sacrifice of an animal?
Also, I noticed something: Hahn was saying that purgatory is from the latin, 'purgatorio' and in greek it's 'hades' and in Hebrew it's 'sheol'. The problem I see is that sheol (to my understanding) wasn't a place of purification, but rather a place where all the old testament saints remained after they died, and they wouldn't be in heaven until the 'dead are raised' (1 Thess 4:16), as in the 'first resurrection' (Rev 20:5), when hades would be put away (Rev 20:13). What do I find wrong with this you ask? Well, I get some impression that's not what Catholics teach about 'hades/sheol/purgatory'.
To my knowledge, Jews did not regard sheol/hades/purgatory as a place of purification but rather, in the words of Josephus, "... souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead". This is consistent with Rev 20:13 and 1 Thess 4:16. Josephus mentions absolutely nothing about a purification process.
Also, Jesus was apparently in the 'grave' (aka sheol/hades/purgatory) after he died (Acts 2:31). So why would Jesus be in hades/purgatory if he needed to be 'purged' from sin, which he obviously didn't have? Scripture also says in Acts 2:31 that Jesus's body did not suffer decay, as if to say that those who were in sheol/hades/purgatory do suffer decay. And scripture says that Jesus experienced the 'agony of death' (Acts 2:24). The STING of death (1 Cor 15:56). Both passages are clearly referring to the grave/hades (Acts 2:27, 1 Cor 15:54-55).
Another thing I came across was 1 Cor 3:11-15, which says in the middle of the passage, "the fire will test the quality of each man's work" (1 Cor 3:13). It seems Catholics say that the 'fire' implies the existence of purgatory since it's not referring to hell fire.
But from the context, it doesn't sound like it has anything to do with purgatory or hell fire for that matter. If anything, it refers to the context of living a godly life and maintaining a strong foundations for Christians who were abiding in him. It appears to parallel with Luke 6:46-49, John 15:1-17, and closely relates with Matt 25:14-30. Also I don't think fire is to be taken literally...neither is the rest of 1 Cor 3:11-15. Based on the context, Paul is referring to building a foundation, and speaks metaphorically in describing how the foundation is built, whether it be gold, wood, straw, etc. I don't Paul is telling us to literally place gold, or wood, or straw upon believers. So when he says, 'fire' it's obviously not a literal fire either. If anything the 'fire' may refer to the tribulations of the Christians. Here's what I mean:
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
Paul uses the word 'Day', which is clearly referring to the day of the lord (i.e. at the 2nd coming). Matt 25:14-30 talks about the ten talents and the 3 men. One of them didn't do a thing with what was entrusted upon him. At the end of the parable we learn he 'failed'. In other words, he was thrown in the darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (i.e. hell). So when we re-read 1 Cor 3:11-15, 'as one escaping through the flames' refers to those who barely make it through. In other words, those who did the bare minimum. But for those who built a strong foundation, he's promised a reward (1 Cor 3:14). So I don't see how this has anything to do with purgatory. But rather it has to do with reaping various rewards (in heaven) or punishments (in hell) for sowing in such things. Honestly, to me, purgatory sounds......ridiculous.
I don't see why there's a need for a purification process in the afterlife. One brother made the following statement which I actually agree with:
"'The what-if a man sins and immediately dies scenario' is concept/concern developed from the erronious lens of Catholicized Purgatorio. There are simply various states of rewards and punishments in Heaven and for those in Hell."
Furthermore, I believe sheol/hades/purgatory does not apply for today anyway, since I believe it's in the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). Why?
Because Jesus said His second coming would be in the lifetime of the apostles (Matt 24:30,34) and that some of his disciples would actually be alive to see it (Matt 16:27-28, John 21:20-22). Jesus also said his disciples would not go through all the cities of Israel before he would come as a result of being persecuted (Matt 10:23). He even said that the high priest would live to see His second coming (Matt 26:64)
The apostles unanimously agreed that they were living the last days (Heb 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20, 1 John 2:18). And apostles Paul specifically told the Corinthians to "not marry, act as if you weren't married, don't be happy, don't mourn" (1 Cor 7:27-30). Why? Because the time was short (1 Cor 7:29) and the fashion of the world was passing away (1 Cor 7:31). Was Paul crazy?
You all may be wondering: What is the point to this. It's clearly this: Jesus and all the apostles believed they were living the last days. And Jesus said that the dead/living would be judged as his coming. And Revelation clearly states that the Hadean realm would be put away when the dead/living were judged.
I firmly believe Jesus and the apostles were indeed living the last days (of biblical Judaism), and that the living and the dead were judged, and that the Hadean realm was indeed put away. Otherwise, I'd have to accept the fact that Jesus screwed up and fails the test of the prophet (Deut 18:20-22), which would make me question my faith in Christ if he screwed up to do what he promised he did (Matt 16:27-28, Matt 24:30,34, Matt 10:23, Matt 26:64)
So for me, I can't accept Purgatory for those reasons. I have to hold on to the protestant view, since I find the Catholic understanding of purgatory to be unbiblical.
-Jason