Problems in Medieval Catholicism

DominicBaptiste

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Of course you belong to a Church which in now in eternal rebellion ,but that is your choice . Perhaps having women run your Church is 'karma ' for the 'individualist Pride ',which is the bain of most protestant dénominations .
I'm pretty sure women don't run all Protestant churches. Southern Baptist Convention?
 
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SolomonVII

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:The importance of the Sacraments was exalted over the importance of preaching God's word. The seven sacraments (so called) were considered to be the arteries of the body of Christ and the way that the faithful would receive God's grace. The problem is that the sacraments were mechanical. Participants need not understand them, they need only participate in them in order to receive grace. This leads to our next problem.
how can anyone possible know that about the medieval church? For sure the sacraments were important. They still are.But it is not as if the Mass is not without the reading of the Word.

If the point being made that the medieval people were largely illiterate, this is true enough. Even then, literacy before the invention of the Gutenburg press and the availability of anything to read is something that made Protestantism possible.
And as soon as reading materials became available, individual Catholics read the Bible too.
Comparing medieval Christianity to secular society today, my guess is that Christians then, illiterate as potatoes though most of them were, they were nowhere as Biblically illiterate as Christians are today. Man, that society was infused with Christian imagery and symbolism and values! As for society today, it is almost embarrassing to listen to what some Christians here in these very forums have to say about God and the Bible. Even got one believer making the case that God is a criminal.

Medeival church may not have been able to read any of the words, but the average guy understood all the meanings. Now we got all the words that a cut and paste can produce, and the understanding of a potato as far as it who God actually is.
 
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Galilee63

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Never in my 50 plus years have I ever attended Holy Mass whereby any Priest has requested funds either during Holy Mass and or during The Holy Homily. In fact all Parishioners never have felt the need to feel obligated to either place any money on the plate and or to donate anything towards the running of each Parish here. I attend many Parishes not just one Parish and many during my lifetime. There has never been pressure or feelings of obligation to give through our Lord Jesus Holy Spirits, God our Heavenly Father's, and Most Holy Mother Marys Catholic Church.

If people wish to receive our Lord Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, God The Most High, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself in His Holy Divine Sacred Flesh and Holy Divine Sacred Precious Blood in Holy Communion with our Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit and receive our Lord Jesus Christ Himself in Holy Confession with Holy Absolution/Holy Forgiveness of sins, Holy Reconciliation in our Blessed Holy Trinity and in Holy Baptism by our Blessed Holy Trinity, visiting our Lord Jesus Christ in His Holy Blessed Sacrament at The Altar and in His Holy Tabernacle, then to pay for the electricity and or any heating or cooling costs, the general costs to support our Blessed Holy Trinity's Priests and Nuns/Sisters, Religious and Staff members, of course Parishioners including myself should be giving a little each out of our income to support the day to day running costs of Priests attending Funerals, conducting Funerals, attending to our Families Blessed Holy Sacraments, giving The Last Rites to the sick and dying - and this people can mean the Holy difference for a Heart/Souls Salvation, in addition to the type of Funeral one has had - with many people opting for Cremation outside of The Church - outside of our Lord Jesus Christ - and His Church - without our Lord Jesus Christ Present standing behind His Priests on His Altars in His Catholic Church.

Our Lord Jesus Christ Holy Spirit and Most Holy Mother Mary did not for centuries, appear to thousands of His Catholics Saints/ both our Lord Jesus Christs Priests and Sisters/Nuns/Saints for nothing. Our Lord Jesus Christ appeared to so many of His Priests and Religious and Catholics requesting urgently for the Repentance of Sins in Holy Confession, - Holy Divinely Blessing Gifting Holy SAINT Padre PIO with our Lord Jesus' Holy Heavenly Divine Stigmata - His Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood within Holy Saint Padre PIO's Hands and Feet and Body, showing Holy Saint Padre PIO Holy Heaven and Traversing him to Heaven, to Holy Purgatory and showing Hell to Holy Saint Padre PIO along with many other Holy Divine Heavenly Mysteries to us.

Holy Saint Padre PIO encouraged all Souls for Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ to confess their sins through Holy Confession knowing our Lord Jesus Christ is truly Present in all of His Holy Confessionals and truly Present at the Altars, in His Blessed Holy Sacrament and in His Holy Tabernacle. Literal, Literal, Literal in addition Holy Divine Sacred Spiritual.

And if people flock to our Lord Jesus Christ focussing on Him on The Cross giving our Lord Jesus Christ their time without distractions, without the worldly things prior to Holy Mass or at any time, focussing on Jesus His Life and His Bitter Passion suffered for us all, then you will know in your Hearts and Souls that our Lord Jesus Christ is there watching you and awaiting for you to pray and talk with Him one on ONE.

"Few Do this" our Lord Jesus Christ said to Holy Saint Marie Chambon and Holy Saint Faustina and Holy Saint Bridget and many of our Lords other Holy Saints/Nuns.

We rush, rush rush after our Lord Jesus Christ in HIS Love and Mercy Gifts, Blesses and Graces through His own Holy Divine Flesh and Holy Precious Blood in Holy Communion at Holy Communion time, His Blessed Holy Divine Heavenly Eucharist He changes during Holy Mass Present and the ingratitude of our hearts and souls swallowing the Most Precious Holy Divine Sacrament to Nourish our Souls until the next time we receive our Lord Jesus Christs Holy Flesh and Holy Precious Blood and Holy Divine Gifts, from Heaven by the way, from and in God The Most High our Holy Divine Majesty, then some sit and some kneel including myself some talk as if our Lord Jesus Christ is not there not Present in His Holy Divinity and our Lord Jesus is truly Present in every moment in His Holy Catholic Churches, then listen to Father and rush, rush rush out with few of us ever stopping to THANK our Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit and Most Holy Mother Mary Whom is Present and prays for us and intercedes for us, for our Lord Jesus God our Heavenly Fathers Holy Divine Blessings, Holy Divine Gifts and Holy Graces and Mercy for our souls now and eternally and for our familys Souls now and eternally.

I have been guilty of this many times in my past and now after really receiving our Lord Jesus Christ into my heart I stop and thank our Lord Jesus Christ from my heart talking with Jesus and Most Holy Mother Mary offering up Holy Masses for The Holy Souls in Purgatory, for all souls on their way to eternal damnation, for all of the sick and dying souls, for trapped souls of whom may have nobody to pray and offer up for them their salvation, immersing their hearts and souls in our Lord Jesus Christs Holy Sacred Wounds and Ocean of Mercy, and Holy Precious Blood for their Salvation with each Holy Mass where our Lord Jesus is truly Present and Most Holy Mother Mary truly Present. Our Lord Jesus Christ told His Holy Saints/Nuns to offer up every Holy Mass to Him for all Souls Salvation, for the conversions and salvation of all souls around the world in Prayer, in Deed and in every Holy Mass. Not one Holy Saint, thousands of Catholic Holy Saints/Nuns/Priests now in Gods Holy Word in Heaven with Him.

Every Holy Mass is Holy Divine Heavenly Sacred and Glorious in our Blessed Holy Trinity and in Most Holy Mother Mary in the past now and for Eternity.


Few people approach our Lord Jesus Christ in His Holy Blessed Sacrament at the Altar in Holy Exposition including Catholics taking time our of their busy lives and leisure time activities to pray and talk one on ONE with our Lord Jesus Christ in His Holy Divine Presence at His Altars in His Blessed Holy Divine Catholic Churches. And that can be visiting our Lord Jesus Present in His Holy of Holies remember God in His Holy Divine Presence in His Temple in His Holy of Holies - the same God today Present in His Holy of Holies in His Blessed Holy Sacrament and in His Holy Tabernacle - Holy of Holies.

All of those little town Catholic Churches rarely visited or rarely holding Holy Masses during your travels - try and pop in regardless of whether being Catholic or not and say I love YOU Dear Lord Jesus and I am very sorry for my sins and for the sins of the whole world and during my visit to You I make Holy Reparation for the whole worlds sins and my own, and thank You for Dying on The Cross for all of us and for suffering Your Bitter passion for all of us, and for all of those ungrateful hearts/souls including my own - that's me, here writing, for all of the times I have not stopped and visited You Holy Divine Present here at Your Altar Lord Jesus and Adored You.

All of those country Catholic Churches around the world in little towns everywhere where Jesus is awaiting someone just someone a heart/soul to visit Him at His Altars with His Holy Angels, Holy Saints and Holy Martyrs and Holy Souls in Heaven in Holy attendance with Most Holy Mother Mary of Whom visits so many of our Lords and Her own Holy Catholic Churches around the world seen by many people and our Lord Jesus seen by many people in His Blessed Holy Divine Sacrament.

If people wish to enjoy some comfort from Heating, Cooling, Carpets, Insulated Brick Frames, Community Groups, Assistance, Dinners and Get togethers, in addition to a wide range of groups available at any time needed, then of course a couple of dollars or a dollar on the plate when people can give is wonderful.
 
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Phil 1:21

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The New Testament teaches of the need to financially support the Church, and of the need for ordered worship, so I do not understand what your particular objection is, if you have one.
You don’t understand my objection to promoting bingo night instead of teaching the word of God? That’s unfortunate.
 
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bbbbbbb

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So, in your experience, the homily was about five minutes long, with a substantial portion of those five minutes devoted to asking for financial support. In my experience the homily ranges between 10 to 40 minutes, and very few are devoted to asking for financial support. There appears to be some degree of variation from parish to parish.

The New Testament teaches of the need to financially support the Church, and of the need for ordered worship, so I do not understand what your particular objection is, if you have one.

Do you know where all of those people went? If not, it may be a bit speculative for you to conclude that they left because of the time-ratio of the homily to the other parts of the liturgy, or other perceived dissatisfactions with the Mass.


If our Lord Jesus appears at your church to give a sermon I will be there to attend, but you will have to forgive me if I am not quite as amazed by what your pastor has to say.

Regardless, I am sorry to hear that you were bored at Mass. I go to Mass to worship God, not to quell boredom or to be entertained, so that has never been a particular concern of mine.

Our Lord Jesus is present at Mass. Personally, if our Lord were to come to my home, I would vacuum the rug, bring out the best perfume, and pull the best china out of the cupboard. I would want to give our Lord the best of whatever I had.

Honestly, and this is just opinion of course, I suspect that the reason why you have no desire to have nice things at your service is because you know that our Lord is not present at your service.

Just out of curiosity, what do you normally wear when you go to mass and are in the presence of Him for whom you would use your very best? My observation is that most Catholics here attend mass dressed very casually even to the point of slovenliness. I will never forget the Catholic church that advertised its polka masses.
 
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Afra

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Just out of curiosity, what do you normally wear when you go to mass and are in the presence of Him for whom you would use your very best? My observation is that most Catholics here attend mass dressed very casually even to the point of slovenliness. I will never forget the Catholic church that advertised its polka masses.
I typically wear nice slacks, dress shoes, a dress shirt, and a tie.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Never in my 50 plus years have I ever attended Holy Mass whereby any Priest has requested funds either during Holy Mass and or during The Holy Homily. In fact all Parishioners never have felt the need to feel obligated to either place any money on the plate and or to donate anything towards the running of each Parish here. I attend many Parishes not just one Parish and many during my lifetime. There has never been pressure or feelings of obligation to give through our Lord Jesus Holy Spirits, God our Heavenly Father's, and Most Holy Mother Marys Catholic Church.

If people wish to receive our Lord Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, God The Most High, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself in His Holy Divine Sacred Flesh and Holy Divine Sacred Precious Blood in Holy Communion with our Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit and receive our Lord Jesus Christ Himself in Holy Confession with Holy Absolution/Holy Forgiveness of sins, Holy Reconciliation in our Blessed Holy Trinity and in Holy Baptism by our Blessed Holy Trinity, visiting our Lord Jesus Christ in His Holy Blessed Sacrament at The Altar and in His Holy Tabernacle, then to pay for the electricity and or any heating or cooling costs, the general costs to support our Blessed Holy Trinity's Priests and Nuns/Sisters, Religious and Staff members, of course Parishioners including myself should be giving a little each out of our income to support the day to day running costs of Priests attending Funerals, conducting Funerals, attending to our Families Blessed Holy Sacraments, giving The Last Rites to the sick and dying - and this people can mean the Holy difference for a Heart/Souls Salvation, in addition to the type of Funeral one has had - with many people opting for Cremation outside of The Church - outside of our Lord Jesus Christ - and His Church - without our Lord Jesus Christ Present standing behind His Priests on His Altars in His Catholic Church.

Our Lord Jesus Christ Holy Spirit and Most Holy Mother Mary did not for centuries, appear to thousands of His Catholics Saints/ both our Lord Jesus Christs Priests and Sisters/Nuns/Saints for nothing. Our Lord Jesus Christ appeared to so many of His Priests and Religious and Catholics requesting urgently for the Repentance of Sins in Holy Confession, - Holy Divinely Blessing Gifting Holy SAINT Padre PIO with our Lord Jesus' Holy Heavenly Divine Stigmata - His Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood within Holy Saint Padre PIO's Hands and Feet and Body, showing Holy Saint Padre PIO Holy Heaven and Traversing him to Heaven, to Holy Purgatory and showing Hell to Holy Saint Padre PIO along with many other Holy Divine Heavenly Mysteries to us.

Holy Saint Padre PIO encouraged all Souls for Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ to confess their sins through Holy Confession knowing our Lord Jesus Christ is truly Present in all of His Holy Confessionals and truly Present at the Altars, in His Blessed Holy Sacrament and in His Holy Tabernacle. Literal, Literal, Literal in addition Holy Divine Sacred Spiritual.

And if people flock to our Lord Jesus Christ focussing on Him on The Cross giving our Lord Jesus Christ their time without distractions, without the worldly things prior to Holy Mass or at any time, focussing on Jesus His Life and His Bitter Passion suffered for us all, then you will know in your Hearts and Souls that our Lord Jesus Christ is there watching you and awaiting for you to pray and talk with Him one on ONE.

"Few Do this" our Lord Jesus Christ said to Holy Saint Marie Chambon and Holy Saint Faustina and Holy Saint Bridget and many of our Lords other Holy Saints/Nuns.

We rush, rush rush after our Lord Jesus Christ in HIS Love and Mercy Gifts, Blesses and Graces through His own Holy Divine Flesh and Holy Precious Blood in Holy Communion at Holy Communion time, His Blessed Holy Divine Heavenly Eucharist He changes during Holy Mass Present and the ingratitude of our hearts and souls swallowing the Most Precious Holy Divine Sacrament to Nourish our Souls until the next time we receive our Lord Jesus Christs Holy Flesh and Holy Precious Blood and Holy Divine Gifts, from Heaven by the way, from and in God The Most High our Holy Divine Majesty, then some sit and some kneel including myself some talk as if our Lord Jesus Christ is not there not Present in His Holy Divinity and our Lord Jesus is truly Present in every moment in His Holy Catholic Churches, then listen to Father and rush, rush rush out with few of us ever stopping to THANK our Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit and Most Holy Mother Mary Whom is Present and prays for us and intercedes for us, for our Lord Jesus God our Heavenly Fathers Holy Divine Blessings, Holy Divine Gifts and Holy Graces and Mercy for our souls now and eternally and for our familys Souls now and eternally.

I have been guilty of this many times in my past and now after really receiving our Lord Jesus Christ into my heart I stop and thank our Lord Jesus Christ from my heart talking with Jesus and Most Holy Mother Mary offering up Holy Masses for The Holy Souls in Purgatory, for all souls on their way to eternal damnation, for all of the sick and dying souls, for trapped souls of whom may have nobody to pray and offer up for them their salvation, immersing their hearts and souls in our Lord Jesus Christs Holy Sacred Wounds and Ocean of Mercy, and Holy Precious Blood for their Salvation with each Holy Mass where our Lord Jesus is truly Present and Most Holy Mother Mary truly Present. Our Lord Jesus Christ told His Holy Saints/Nuns to offer up every Holy Mass to Him for all Souls Salvation, for the conversions and salvation of all souls around the world in Prayer, in Deed and in every Holy Mass. Not one Holy Saint, thousands of Catholic Holy Saints/Nuns/Priests now in Gods Holy Word in Heaven with Him.

Every Holy Mass is Holy Divine Heavenly Sacred and Glorious in our Blessed Holy Trinity and in Most Holy Mother Mary in the past now and for Eternity.


Few people approach our Lord Jesus Christ in His Holy Blessed Sacrament at the Altar in Holy Exposition including Catholics taking time our of their busy lives and leisure time activities to pray and talk one on ONE with our Lord Jesus Christ in His Holy Divine Presence at His Altars in His Blessed Holy Divine Catholic Churches. And that can be visiting our Lord Jesus Present in His Holy of Holies remember God in His Holy Divine Presence in His Temple in His Holy of Holies - the same God today Present in His Holy of Holies in His Blessed Holy Sacrament and in His Holy Tabernacle - Holy of Holies.

All of those little town Catholic Churches rarely visited or rarely holding Holy Masses during your travels - try and pop in regardless of whether being Catholic or not and say I love YOU Dear Lord Jesus and I am very sorry for my sins and for the sins of the whole world and during my visit to You I make Holy Reparation for the whole worlds sins and my own, and thank You for Dying on The Cross for all of us and for suffering Your Bitter passion for all of us, and for all of those ungrateful hearts/souls including my own - that's me, here writing, for all of the times I have not stopped and visited You Holy Divine Present here at Your Altar Lord Jesus and Adored You.

All of those country Catholic Churches around the world in little towns everywhere where Jesus is awaiting someone just someone a heart/soul to visit Him at His Altars with His Holy Angels, Holy Saints and Holy Martyrs and Holy Souls in Heaven in Holy attendance with Most Holy Mother Mary of Whom visits so many of our Lords and Her own Holy Catholic Churches around the world seen by many people and our Lord Jesus seen by many people in His Blessed Holy Divine Sacrament.

If people wish to enjoy some comfort from Heating, Cooling, Carpets, Insulated Brick Frames, Community Groups, Assistance, Dinners and Get togethers, in addition to a wide range of groups available at any time needed, then of course a couple of dollars or a dollar on the plate when people can give is wonderful.

I will never forget the first mass I ever attended. It was in 1970 at the campus church for Iowa State University in Ames, Iowa. I went with a Catholic friend. The title of the homily was, "Bring George to Mass." The homily consisted of a harangue from the priest with the point being that everyone was expected to contribute at least one dollar (George Washington) at mass. The priest threatened to turn off the heat in the church if we failed in our duty.

Subsequently I have attended various other Catholic masses. Unless they were for weddings or funerals the homilies have frequently included a strong focus on financial obligation.

I had two Catholic friends from other areas of the country who were surprised when I told them of these masses. They visited me and attended mass and both came back agreeing that the priest had harangued the congregation to increase their giving.

Recently I met a youngish Catholic priest in a small rural parish (with three churches). He is under strong pressure from the bishop to increase giving to the diocese. I feel sorry for him.
 
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Afra

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Would you wear that for your wedding, or to attend a job interview, or to propose to your wife? I wear my best clothes, which, for me, is one of several suits.
I do not know what I will wear at those events, but I imagine that I will wear the best of whatever I have available at the time.
 
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Afra

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I will never forget the first mass I ever attended. It was in 1970 at the campus church for Iowa State University in Ames, Iowa. I went with a Catholic friend. The title of the homily was, "Bring George to Mass." The homily consisted of a harangue from the priest with the point being that everyone was expected to contribute at least one dollar (George Washington) at mass. The priest threatened to turn off the heat in the church if we failed in our duty.

Subsequently I have attended various other Catholic masses. Unless they were for weddings or funerals the homilies have frequently included a strong focus on financial obligation.

I had two Catholic friends from other areas of the country who were surprised when I told them of these masses. They visited me and attended mass and both came back agreeing that the priest had harangued the congregation to increase their giving.

Recently I met a youngish Catholic priest in a small rural parish (with three churches). He is under strong pressure from the bishop to increase giving to the diocese. I feel sorry for him.
I have heard appeals for financial support at every Protestant church I have attended. Is there a problem with that, or is it only improper when a Catholic does it?
 
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bbbbbbb

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I have heard appeals for financial support at every Protestant church I have attended. Is there a problem with that, or is it only improper when a Catholic does it?

The church I attend never appeals for money and only takes an offering at one of its three services.

The church I grew up in appealed for money only one Sunday a year, which was in October. Other than that, the sermons were on other topics.

However, I take your point as I also have attended Protestant churches where the congregation was harangued to give more. I wondered why people attended if that was the theme of every service.

The bottom line is that if a church can keep its focus on Jesus Christ without wandering off into other topics it is doing well.
 
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Afra

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The church I attend never appeals for money and only takes an offering at one of its three services.

The church I grew up in appealed for money only one Sunday a year, which was in October. Other than that, the sermons were on other topics.

However, I take your point as I also have attended Protestant churches where the congregation was harangued to give more. I wondered why people attended if that was the theme of every service.

The bottom line is that if a church can keep its focus on Jesus Christ without wandering off into other topics it is doing well.
Yes, it is good for the focus to remain on God.
 
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Philip_B

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As stewardship is in important art of Christian life, I should think that it should be taught as part of the whole body of things that are taught, and clearly part of stewardship is what we offer God in the way of money given to the Church for the ongoing work of the Church.

Certainly there are limits and balances, however I think that the issue can and should be covered. The Church, like everything else does not run on fresh air, and we need to pay our way in the world. Merely discussing the issue is not necessarily banging on about it, though clearly may be perceived as such by some.
 
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Liza B.

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Interesting points, especially #1. I grew up in the RCC (baptism, confession, communion, confirmation, altar boy, 12 years of parochial education etc.). Looking back, I never connected with the Catholic mass. To me it was one long word-for-word scripted ceremony (sit-stand-kneel-sit-kneel-stand-kneel-recite, lather, rinse, repeat). It was 55 minutes of ceremony with maybe 5 minutes of teaching about God’s word (although the sermons were often about the need for more donations and so forth). It’s no wonder so many people headed for the door after the priest gave them communion.

Then I started reading the Bible and realized one of the things that drew people to Jesus, that amazed them about Him, was his teaching about God’s word. He didn’t spend three years in ministry scripting ceremonies and such. He taught the word. Perhaps that’s why, while the RC mass bored me immensely, services that focus on teaching the word draw me in fully. To me, if the Church is to be a reflection of Christ it should actually BE a reflection of Christ’s ministry.

Honestly, and this is just opinion of course, I suspect if He were to walk into a RC mass, saw all the gold, marble, statues, icons, pomp and ceremony, he’s be looking for some cords to fashion a whip.

This was absolutely my husband's experience as well, and I cannot express my gratitude to God that we are both saved. He came out of the Catholic Church as well after a private Catholic school education. He was fairly...unimpressed by it all, you might say. Much pomp and circumstance, not much of Jesus there for him.
 
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Afra

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This was absolutely my husband's experience as well, and I cannot express my gratitude to God that we are both saved. He came out of the Catholic Church as well after a private Catholic school education. He was fairly...unimpressed by it all, you might say. Much pomp and circumstance, not much of Jesus there for him.
Why do you believe that you are saved?

And why do you believe that your husband is saved?
 
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