Problems in Medieval Catholicism

BNR32FAN

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The Problem with Deification (Essay) - Under the Sun



Look up the Marrow Controversy in Scotland for an excellent example of how the Gospel quickly became forgotten in place of moralism/legalism.

Lutherans are content to separate the civil realm from the means of grace. The institutions of civil society, including the Church, can be guided by human reason and civil righteousness accessible to all people. It does not require theonomy. This is essential to our distinguishing between Law and Gospel.

The religion itself is not responsible for the actions of people who don’t follow what that religion teaches. People have been disobeying God since Adam & Eve. So why point out a particular event to discredit the reformation when this has happened in every religion since creation?
 
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BNR32FAN

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The problem is of course, the obvious fallacies in all you say.

1/ The earliest church as evidenced in church fathers, was provably a liturgical sacramental church, see ignatius- that openly stated " real body" " flesh of Jesus" of the Eucharist , we don't make the sacraments important, such as baptism and Eucharist - Christ did that. Of the Eucharist he says" unless you eat my body, drink my blood you have no life in you" etc

2/ as far as I am aware the Catholic Church is one of the only churches that DOES NOT allow catechumens to take Eucharist until they understand basics, Now done through RCIA . Coming to which NoBody truly understands the sacraments, like miracles they are a mystery! And how can you think that John the baptists baptised understood anything? Faith is taking on trust.Christ was yet to come!...

3/ you make the Protestant error of believing scripture is sufficient and can be understood by all if in their own language. Provably false on all counts, logically historically and scripturally false, It is precisely because of " sola scriptura" and protestants have many mutually exclusive beliefs on every aspect of doctrine.
Reality is the meaning of scripture is passed by tradition e.g. Real presence, and without authority and tradition to interpret it so have the correct meaning, you only have words not the word of a god. That's why Luther lamented of the monster he and others made directly because of sola scriptura" " there are now as many doctrines as heads" ... Protestant groups schism and fracture with monotonous regularity because of it.

Why do such as you never notice the massive differences in Protestant doctrine that prove that scripture is not enough without authority and tradition?

4/ the way truth was handed down in early church was apostolic successor tradition - i.e. Word of mouth, and paul. Makes that abundantly clear in two places in 2 Timothy. Sola scriptura is an invention of the reformation, the church was charged with passing on truth.

5/ scripture make s abundantly clear there are past current and future aspects to salvation and justification. Indeed even salvation refers to both temporal and eternal forms. Indeed aspects of tulip are demonstrably false in scripture.
i suggest you read such as jimmy Akins book " salvation controversy" before you air your oversimplification again.

Also learn about Catholicism before criticise would be good.
The normal anticatholic mythbook is just that.

Sure - Luther had a valid point- if repeated ad nauseam made about some in the church falsely " selling" indulgencies. But that was never accepted doctrine, as the pope made abundantly clear just a few years later at Trent.
Luther was a hothead, he should have waited.

I can only repeat scripture. The " foundation of truth is the church" indeed without the power of the church to " bind and loose" you would not have an infallible canon or creed.. no New Testament! ( for you to misinterpret!)

When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorantof tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce:

St Iranaeus Adversus Haereses Book 3 Chapter 2
 
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FireDragon76

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The religion itself is not responsible for the actions of people who don’t follow what that religion teaches. People have been disobeying God since Adam & Eve. So why point out a particular event to discredit the reformation when this has happened in every religion since creation?

I'm not discrediting the Reformation, just a particular understanding of the Reformation.
 
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DominicBaptiste

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I won't tell you what I think of this as it would not be posted .However I will say that you should take it up with Jesus as he loved the women and it was mostly to the men he had very harsh words .Today it is men who still commit 90% of murders, crimes etc , so on that too ,you are completely off the wall as well .
The men commit murders because the women have taken over and don't know how to settle the men. You're right that Jesus can do better than anyone. He was a man!
 
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bbbbbbb

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I doubt from what you say that you know or have lived in a country where the RCC religion is dominant .There is a sense of peace in the society itself ,and even in the schools which you do not get in protestant ones or in their schools . In France the people who are free to belong to any religion since the revolution choose to still be Catholic while not being exactly perfectly holy .I have watched Lutheran ,evangelical and other services and none of them have that certain peace and goodness which can be found in most churches .I believe the revolution was good for French catholicism ,as it less arrogant , more listening ,and more intellectual than the Irish version , as a result of being persecuted , and forced to face up to it's shortcomings .

I grew up in a thoroughly Catholic city and I can tell you that your assertions are utter rubbish. Alcoholism was rampant with the Irish vying with the Germans in guzzling in the saloons. Families were broken and dysfunctional. There was a special orphanage for the illegitimate progeny of the priests. You might say that at least the Catholic Church did not allow abortions to murder these illegitimate children and provided an orphanage for the upbringing. That is probably the best thing that can be said for the Catholic culture of Dubuque, Iowa.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The men commit murders because the women have taken over and don't know how to settle the men. You're right that Jesus can do better than anyone. He was a man!

Brother you are very confused. Do you honestly believe that the crimes committed today are a result of women taking over? That is truly proposterous. Men have sinned since creation long before women were given equal rights.
 
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redleghunter

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The same John Chrysostom who also said:

Let us, then, put all these considerations into practice by our deeds. If we do not perform them rightly, to no purpose and in vain have we come into the world, or, rather, we have come for the sake of evil. Faith is not enough to bring us into the kingdom; on the contrary, even because of it, those who live bad lives can be most severely condemned. For, ‘He who knows the will of his master and does not fulfill it, will be beaten with many stripes.’ And again He says: ‘If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin.’12 What defense shall we have, then, we who are within the royal palace and who have been deemed worthy to penetrate into the Holy of Holies, and who have been made sharers in the mysteries that free us from sin, if we become worse than the pagans who have had no share at all in these privileges?

John Chrysostom, Commentary on Saint John the Apostle and Evangelist: Homilies 48–88, trans. Thomas Aquinas Goggin, vol. 41, The Fathers of the Church (Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1959), 424–425.

I have also just recently read his letters (the last writings of St John Chrysostom that I know of) which contains the advice he gave to Saint Olympias and the language he uses, the advice he gives is not one that a modern Protestant might approve of. He seems of the opinion generally that it is within our power to sort out our meloncholy and depression and he only ever rarely speaks of grace in those letters.

Quoting a Father who did not think in the categories or terms of latter theologians doesn't prove they held to the latter doctrine. I still think I am quite justified to pointing to Luther's definition as the first Protestant definition of Sola Fide and the insistence on it. The earliest fathers do speak of faith and at times even to the exclusion of works from it, but then they will insist on works at the same time. One example from the Philokalia (called Those who think they are made righteous by works) speaks thus on the question:

2. Wishing to show that to fulfill every commandment is a duty, whereas sonship is a gift given to men through his own Blood, the Lord said: 'When you have done all that is commanded you, say: "we are useless servants; we have only done what was our duty"'. Thus the kingdom of heaven is not a reward for works, but a gift of grace prepared by the Master for his faithful servants.

Sounds very Protestant eh? Continuing...

18. Some without fulfilling the commandments think that they possess true faith. Others fulfil commandments and then expect the Kingdom as a reward due to them. Both are mistaken.

19. A master is under no obligation to reward his slaves: on the other hand, those who do not serve him well are not given their freedom.

43. If we are under an obligation to perform daily all the good actions of which our nature is capable, what do we have left over to give God in repayment for our past sins?

I see this sort of apparent contradiction all throughout the Fathers. The speak of grace but also of the necessity of doing good.

I would still ask my question, is Luther's definition necessary for the Christian?
He either contradicts his own testimony or it means something else.

Something else meaning Chrysostom in his commentaries on the Pauline epistles exegetes that justification is by faith alone. What you posted were his warnings of what is not saving faith.
 
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DominicBaptiste

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Brother you are very confused. Do you honestly believe that the crimes committed today are a result of women taking over? That is truly proposterous. Men have sinned since creation long before women were given equal rights.
I disarmed a young black thug on the street last week who was about to rob me while I was walking to get my car from the shop, and now he's my friend. I talked him out of it. Do you think the old ladies on this site have skills like that? Come again.
 
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redleghunter

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This "Scriptural support" for the seven (so called) sacraments reminds me of those movies which claim to be loosely based on true events. The seven (so called) sacraments may be in some way inspired by Scripture. But they are not supported or established by Scripture.
You mean the application of eisegesis can make just about anything Biblical?
 
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redleghunter

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I disarmed a young black thug on the street last week who was about to rob me while I was walking to get my car from the shop, and now he's my friend. I talked him out of it. Do you think the old ladies on this site have skills like that? Come again.
Just speaking with the young man? Wow. That's great . No jujitsu?
 
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BNR32FAN

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He either contradicts his own testimony or it means something else.

Something else meaning Chrysostom in his commentaries on the Pauline epistles exegetes that justification is by faith alone. What you posted were his warnings of what is not saving faith.

I think the question here is is the secular definition of the words faith and believe the same as the biblical definition? I think not. The Bible states many times that we are saved by believing and by having faith yet James says that faith without works is dead and even demons believe in God. To me this indicates that having faith and believing actually involves more than the secular definition of these words. So can we have faith without doing works? From what I interpret from James in order to have a true faith we must do good works. We are not saved by good works we are saved because of our compassion and love for others. Because by having faith we are compelled by the Holy Spirit to do good works. Our good works are evidence of our faith. It is our faith that saves us. That’s just my interpretation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I disarmed a young black thug on the street last week who was about to rob me while I was walking to get my car from the shop, and now he's my friend. I talked him out of it. Do you think the old ladies on this site have skills like that? Come again.

Surely he wasn’t robbing you because the women had taken over lol Great job brother I’m glad you were able to handle the situation with love and compassion. God bless you
 
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redleghunter

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I think the question here is is the secular definition of the words faith and believe the same as the biblical definition? I think not. The Bible states many times that we are saved by believing and by having faith yet James says that faith without works is dead and even demons believe in God. To me this indicates that having faith and believing actually involves more than the secular definition of these words. So can we have faith without doing works? From what I interpret from James in order to have a true faith we must do good works. We are not saved by good works we are saved because of our compassion and love for others. Because by having faith we are compelled by the Holy Spirit to do good works. Our good works are evidence of our faith. It is our faith that saves us. That’s just my interpretation.
Yes faith as defined in the Holy Scriptures heavily implies faithfulness.
 
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redleghunter

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For me, it is, as I observe long term what truly makes a Christian . It is a process ,and when it seems not to be , it is only ,that the 'process ' was already happening albeit , hidden from view until it came to fruition visibly .
I think what you define above is sanctification.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Sorry, Phil, but but take a look in the OT when God was talking about His Tent, and then His Temple There is all sorts of gold, lavish design, icons, pomp and ceremony. When Jesus made that whip, he made it to clean out the trash from the sellers in the outer courts.
Yeah, now he’d be cleaning the inside.
 
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Afra

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Interesting points, especially #1. I grew up in the RCC (baptism, confession, communion, confirmation, altar boy, 12 years of parochial education etc.). Looking back, I never connected with the Catholic mass.
To me it was one long word-for-word scripted ceremony (sit-stand-kneel-sit-kneel-stand-kneel-recite, lather, rinse, repeat). It was 55 minutes of ceremony with maybe 5 minutes of teaching about God’s word (although the sermons were often about the need for more donations and so forth).
So, in your experience, the homily was about five minutes long, with a substantial portion of those five minutes devoted to asking for financial support. In my experience the homily ranges between 10 to 40 minutes, and very few are devoted to asking for financial support. There appears to be some degree of variation from parish to parish.

The New Testament teaches of the need to financially support the Church, and of the need for ordered worship, so I do not understand what your particular objection is, if you have one.

It’s no wonder so many people headed for the door after the priest gave them communion.
Do you know where all of those people went? If not, it may be a bit speculative for you to conclude that they left because of the time-ratio of the homily to the other parts of the liturgy, or other perceived dissatisfactions with the Mass.

Then I started reading the Bible and realized one of the things that drew people to Jesus, that amazed them about Him, was his teaching about God’s word. He didn’t spend three years in ministry scripting ceremonies and such. He taught the word. Perhaps that’s why, while the RC mass bored me immensely, services that focus on teaching the word draw me in fully. To me, if the Church is to be a reflection of Christ it should actually BE a reflection of Christ’s ministry.
If our Lord Jesus appears at your church to give a sermon I will be there to attend, but you will have to forgive me if I am not quite as amazed by what your pastor has to say.

Regardless, I am sorry to hear that you were bored at Mass. I go to Mass to worship God, not to quell boredom or to be entertained, so that has never been a particular concern of mine.

Honestly, and this is just opinion of course, I suspect if He were to walk into a RC mass, saw all the gold, marble, statues, icons, pomp and ceremony, he’s be looking for some cords to fashion a whip.
Our Lord Jesus is present at Mass. Personally, if our Lord were to come to my home, I would vacuum the rug, bring out the best perfume, and pull the best china out of the cupboard. I would want to give our Lord the best of whatever I had.

Honestly, and this is just opinion of course, I suspect that the reason why you have no desire to have nice things at your service is because you know that our Lord is not present at your service.
 
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