Problem with Sacraments

Markie Boy

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So I am here trying to learn, and trying to find a home - so please take my thoughts as someone thinking - not picking internet squabbles.

If sacraments offer grace or are a means of grace - why is it communities that have sacraments don't look any different than those that don't?

It would seem sacramental communities should look and act more full of grace than those without - but I have not seen any real difference.

I have a friend that was in seminary to be a Catholic priest. After leaving and working in a factory, he commented on how the factory had as many nice people as the church basically - possibly more!

I just don't see the evidence for sacramental grace.
 

HTacianas

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So I am here trying to learn, and trying to find a home - so please take my thoughts as someone thinking - not picking internet squabbles.

If sacraments offer grace or are a means of grace - why is it communities that have sacraments don't look any different than those that don't?

It would seem sacramental communities should look and act more full of grace than those without - but I have not seen any real difference.

I have a friend that was in seminary to be a Catholic priest. After leaving and working in a factory, he commented on how the factory had as many nice people as the church basically - possibly more!

I just don't see the evidence for sacramental grace.

If you could ask your question in the Sacrament/Ordinance section I think I can help you. I don't want to step on the toes of any of my Lutheran friends by answering here.
 
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Daniel9v9

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I think perhaps it could be helpful to consider it in this way: We cannot see the forgiveness of sins, but we can see (1) signs of it and (2) the result of it.

(1) We see God's grace, that is, His promise of forgiveness of sins won for us by the person and works of Jesus, tangibly in God's gifts of Baptism and the Eucharist. And I think a case can also be made for Absolution. (This same forgiveness of sins is also found in His Word and by means of the Lord's Prayer or prayer for forgiveness of sins to Jesus in general. It may be confusing, but it's the same Gospel only given to us in different ways for our benefit.)

(2) The result of God's grace, in talking about Sanctification, I think can be summed up as consoled consciences, faith, and good works.

To make this a bit clearer, there's a practical difference between the Roman Catholic system and the Lutheran system in how we understand the Sacraments in light of repentance. In the Roman Catholic system, repentance consists of three parts: Sorrow over sins, a change of heart, and payment for sins through good works. In the Lutheran system, however, repentance consists of two parts: Sorrow over sins, and trust in Jesus.

So, in other words, the Sacraments play a somewhat different role in the Roman Catholic system. They infuse grace to sort of energise the believer to do good. Whereas in the Lutheran system, the Sacraments are means of grace proper. That is, they are God's gifts to us in order to console our contrite hearts, and the effect of this is dependence on God and clear consciences.

Simply speaking, when a person is called to repent and to receive the Eucharist in the Lutheran Church, there is no room for doubt. We know that we cannot pay for our own sins or somehow collaborate with Jesus to pay for our sins. Christ paid for our sins in full upon the cross, and His Words and promise are true, and we trust in that. In the Roman Catholic system, there is a lot of uncertainty. Did I remember to numerate all of my sins? Did I forget any? Did I manage to say the correct amount of Hail Marys and was I sincere enough? In the Roman Catholic system, this is not understood to be a problem, because doubt is seen as a virtue. But in the Lutheran system, we hold that Christ wishes us to know that we are saved. To express this idea with Biblical terms, Paul says to the Ephesians "by grace you have been saved" and not "by grace your original sins were paid and now you have to collaborate with God to pay for your actual sins", nor "by grace salvation may become possible", nor "by grace and your own works you may eventually be saved".

So in summary, the difference that we can discern visibly, is how the Roman Catholic system produces troubled consciences or at least give room for doubt, but the Lutheran system, properly understood, produces clear consciences. Basically, how the Sacrament works and functions in the Lutheran system is that they are God's good gifts to us, and we trust in God's promise contained in those gifts. So the practical difference is this: If we ask “Am I forgiven?” Lutherans can answer: Yes because Christ died for me. Roman Catholics may say the same, but with an asterisk of uncertainty.
 
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Markie Boy

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Daniel9v9 - that works - and thank you for taking the time to work it out.

At a glance, the Catholic and Lutheran can appear very similar, but one layer under the surface and they are very different it seems.

In the Catholic Baltimore Catechism there is a story of a little boy that goes into confession with 4 sins I think it was. Each sin is shown as a box he's carrying in. He confesses 3, but is too ashamed and doesn't confess the 4th - so he comes out of confession with 5 boxes! None of his confessed sins are forgiven, and he has another sin for not confessing the 4th! The poor guy tried, but came out worse than he started!

I'll keep working on things, thank you and God Bless!
 
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Daniel9v9

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Daniel9v9 - that works - and thank you for taking the time to work it out.

At a glance, the Catholic and Lutheran can appear very similar, but one layer under the surface and they are very different it seems.

In the Catholic Baltimore Catechism there is a story of a little boy that goes into confession with 4 sins I think it was. Each sin is shown as a box he's carrying in. He confesses 3, but is too ashamed and doesn't confess the 4th - so he comes out of confession with 5 boxes! None of his confessed sins are forgiven, and he has another sin for not confessing the 4th! The poor guy tried, but came out worse than he started!

I'll keep working on things, thank you and God Bless!

Hey, thank you and no problem! It's my joy in the Lord!

Yeah, that's a very sad story that mixes truth with error. Of course, we are not to keep sins hidden from God, but we are not demanded to recount all of our sins, because that's impossible. And to claim that we can is to betray a shallow understanding of sin.

If you want to read more about this difference between the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church, I can recommend reading Article XI: Confession, in our Augsburg Confession and its Apology available here:

The Augsburg Confession – Luco

The Apology – Luco

God's blessings to you!
 
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ViaCrucis

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Daniel9v9 - that works - and thank you for taking the time to work it out.

At a glance, the Catholic and Lutheran can appear very similar, but one layer under the surface and they are very different it seems.

In the Catholic Baltimore Catechism there is a story of a little boy that goes into confession with 4 sins I think it was. Each sin is shown as a box he's carrying in. He confesses 3, but is too ashamed and doesn't confess the 4th - so he comes out of confession with 5 boxes! None of his confessed sins are forgiven, and he has another sin for not confessing the 4th! The poor guy tried, but came out worse than he started!

I'll keep working on things, thank you and God Bless!

And that does a good job illustrating just how different the Lutheran understanding of Confession and Absolution is. His sins are forgiven, a full recounting of sins is not necessary--and indeed, impossible. We can't remember all of our sins, they are myriad. But we come and confess, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner." And He hears us, and the pastor in the name and authority and stead of Christ says our sins are forgiven--they are truly forgiven. They are forgiven because Christ already suffered and died, once and for all, for all the sins of the world. And this word of Absolution is real grace, it is real grace because our sins are forgiven, it is real grace because it is comfort to the guilty and aching conscience of the sinner. That's Gospel.

If we cannot have confidence in God's forgiveness, then where is the Gospel? If the Christian cannot stand confident on the promises of God's mercy in Jesus, then where is the Gospel? If the Christian comes away from confession in a worse state than before they entered--then there can only be hopelessness and despair. The Gospel washes us clean, clothes us with the robes of Christ's righteousness, the entire forgiveness of our sins is found in it, for here is the blood of the precious Lamb of God that covers us and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. That is the power of the Gospel, the power of God to save all who believe.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Markie Boy

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You guys are making sense. I am so conditioned to the Catholic system of sacraments, and there is always a long list of rules and dogmas that enforce the "why", and often one answer is dependent on another rule - both of which are not found in Scripture.

But you guys are using pretty simple Gospel basics and it's actually making sense - feels odd honestly - good, but odd compared to what I am used to.
 
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