Problem with Lutheran baptism teaching!

[jonathan1971]

cruxtheologorum.html

Nice article, thanks for the link

 

[jinc1019]

Nice article, thanks for the link

I agree!

 

[Athanasias]

While I am not Lutheran I am amazed that no one has quoted St. Paul in Titus 3:5-7 which is THE verse many Christians use to teach baptismal regeneration. I know its the verse I use.

"He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. "(Titus 3:5-7)

Fits nicely with other passages such as Ezekiel 36:25-27, Acts 2:39, and 1 Peter 3:19-21, 1 Cor 6:11.

 

[jinc1019]

While I am not Lutheran I am amazed that no one has quoted St. Paul in Titus 3:5-7 which is THE verse many Christians use to teach baptismal regeneration. I know its the verse I use.

"He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. "(Titus 3:5-7)

Fits nicely with other passages such as Ezekiel 36:25-27, Acts 2:39, and 1 Peter 3:19-21, 1 Cor 6:11.

It does yes!

 

[Moses Medina]

While I am not Lutheran I am amazed that no one has quoted St. Paul in Titus 3:5-7 which is THE verse many Christians use to teach baptismal regeneration. I know its the verse I use.

"He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. "(Titus 3:5-7)

Fits nicely with other passages such as Ezekiel 36:25-27, Acts 2:39, and 1 Peter 3:19-21, 1 Cor 6:11.

Great verse!

To the OP, I never replied because everyone who replied after said everything that I could.its also nice to note that this has been the view of baptism since historical records can point to.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Great verse!

To the OP, I never replied because everyone who replied after said everything that I could.its also nice to note that this has been the view of baptism since historical records can point to.

Yes, exactly. As soon as we get references to any baptismal belief, they're baptismal regeneration. As soon as the question of infant baptism arises, the practice is already widespread.

 

[perrfekt]

Hey jinc1019. I read quite a few of the comments and LilLamb had some great responses. The Lutheran Doctrine of baptism is pretty deep.

The waters of baptism AND the Word give faith, salvation, and very importantly, rebirth as a child of God. The question you are asking is actually more than one question. Is salvation permanent? Is God's grace irresistible? How can a believer lose their salvation if scripture says they cannot be taken away?

Jesus told Nicodemus that to enter the kingdom of God, one must be born again. Scripture tells us that through baptism, we are put to death and born into the family of God.

We are given the right to choose our own damnation, whether by rejecting the gospel, or to turn away from it and choose to reject the grace given to us. Very much like a son who leaves his father and rejects the inheritance he offers. We can look to scripture to gather meaning on this one:

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

(John 6:37-39 ESV)

Very clearly it states that those who go to Christ, he will never send them away. As a former baptist, this was taken to mean that we cannot lose our salvation. Once you believe, and profess faith, you are set and done. You could be an atheist later in life while being safe from the fire. Scripture is clear that those who live in persistent, intentional sin WILL NOT be saved. We cannot serve two masters, and we have the choice of our master.

That answers two of the questions. Yes, we can fall away. Grace is something man can resist. Christ died for the whole world, and any time a person hears the Gospel or baptized as a child, they are given faith and grace. What any person does with this is on their shoulders. The important thing to understand as that we as man CANNOT "take" faith, it must be given. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. If any person has heard the Gospel, they have been given faith sufficient to believe, yet they are free to reject salvation and remain in or return to their sin apart from grace.

I am slightly brain fried, just got off work. If I should try to distill this let me know!

 

[Tangible]

perrfect, you sound surprisingly Lutheran for someone with a Calvary-Chapel icon.

 

[mikedsjr]

I am not allowed to debate or teach contrary to the confessions of Lutheranism in this thread, but in order to explain myself...

It's logically impossible that God can predestine someone, call them, regenerate them in baptism, and that it's possible (and does happen) for that same person to fall away from the faith until death. Is someone is predestined to salvation, they can't also be capable of falling away without radically changing who God is (which Lutherans do not do).

So if you are SAVED in baptism and predestined even before that, how can you fall away? That's one of the major problems. Another, and the one I was primarily concerned with when I started this thread, is simply trying to understand how a person could be saved in baptism and then fall away...but I think this point has been cleared up in this thread using scripture and logic.

I'm not a Lutheran, but I definitely have interest in it. Most of the podcasts I listen to are Lutheran, or a Lutheran is a part of it.

The part that I can understand from your statement that I still don't quite understand myself is the "fall away" portion. The issue appears to have nothing to do with baptism itself, but how Lutheranism can "you are saved", then "you have fallen away". But this is where Paradox comes into play. Where a Lutheran says, "They have fallen away", you might say, "They never were a Christian". What is the difference? The difference is the emphasis placed on Scriptural references.

 

[jinc1019]

Hey jinc1019. I read quite a few of the comments and LilLamb had some great responses. The Lutheran Doctrine of baptism is pretty deep.

The waters of baptism AND the Word give faith, salvation, and very importantly, rebirth as a child of God. The question you are asking is actually more than one question. Is salvation permanent? Is God's grace irresistible? How can a believer lose their salvation if scripture says they cannot be taken away?

Jesus told Nicodemus that to enter the kingdom of God, one must be born again. Scripture tells us that through baptism, we are put to death and born into the family of God.

We are given the right to choose our own damnation, whether by rejecting the gospel, or to turn away from it and choose to reject the grace given to us. Very much like a son who leaves his father and rejects the inheritance he offers. We can look to scripture to gather meaning on this one:

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

(John 6:37-39 ESV)

Very clearly it states that those who go to Christ, he will never send them away. As a former baptist, this was taken to mean that we cannot lose our salvation. Once you believe, and profess faith, you are set and done. You could be an atheist later in life while being safe from the fire. Scripture is clear that those who live in persistent, intentional sin WILL NOT be saved. We cannot serve two masters, and we have the choice of our master.

That answers two of the questions. Yes, we can fall away. Grace is something man can resist. Christ died for the whole world, and any time a person hears the Gospel or baptized as a child, they are given faith and grace. What any person does with this is on their shoulders. The important thing to understand as that we as man CANNOT "take" faith, it must be given. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. If any person has heard the Gospel, they have been given faith sufficient to believe, yet they are free to reject salvation and remain in or return to their sin apart from grace.

I am slightly brain fried, just got off work. If I should try to distill this let me know!

This is a great response and I am very thankful for you taking the time to reply. Since posting this thread originally, I have come to the conclusion that the Lutheran view of baptism is actually correct, so in that sense, this thread was quite effective! I do believe baptism saves by providing faith.

The issue I still struggle with, of course, is that how can predestination exist and at the same time the choice to accept offered grace rest on human shoulders? This is the paradox of the Lutheran position, but it is the position the scriptures present so I just have to accept it. I think a modified version of molinism may help explain this, but in the end, I think living with paradoxes is part of faith.

 

[jinc1019]

perrfect, you sound surprisingly Lutheran for someone with a Calvary-Chapel icon.

Very true!

 

[jinc1019]

I'm not a Lutheran, but I definitely have interest in it. Most of the podcasts I listen to are Lutheran, or a Lutheran is a part of it.

The part that I can understand from your statement that I still don't quite understand myself is the "fall away" portion. The issue appears to have nothing to do with baptism itself, but how Lutheranism can "you are saved", then "you have fallen away". But this is where Paradox comes into play. Where a Lutheran says, "They have fallen away", you might say, "They never were a Christian". What is the difference? The difference is the emphasis placed on Scriptural references.

Well, I slightly disagree. I think the issue really is...Why would God allow someone who he has blessed with the Holy Spirit to slip out of his grasp? I think that's how a Calvinist would approach the issue...In addition to the scriptural references.

 

[LilLamb219]

Well, I slightly disagree. I think the issue really is...Why would God allow someone who he has blessed with the Holy Spirit to slip out of his grasp? I think that's how a Calvinist would approach the issue...In addition to the scriptural references.

I tend to think of it this way...I, as a parent, allow my daughter to go off and do wild and crazy things because I know she'll come running back to me when she absolutely needs me. So, in a way, God allows man to turn away and make mistakes but the seed was planted and when man is at his lowest, he will remember his Father and, like the prodigal son, return!

To me, it's not once saved always saved, but that man can and does fall away...and I personally hope that they will all return to Him, but I can't know if they do.

 

[jinc1019]

I tend to think of it this way...I, as a parent, allow my daughter to go off and do wild and crazy things because I know she'll come running back to me when she absolutely needs me. So, in a way, God allows man to turn away and make mistakes but the seed was planted and when man is at his lowest, he will remember his Father and, like the prodigal son, return!

To me, it's not once saved always saved, but that man can and does fall away...and I personally hope that they will all return to Him, but I can't know if they do.

I think that's a good way of looking at it. Calvinists get wrapped up in the predestination part of it, and I think that's why they have so much trouble.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

http://cos-lutheran.org/resrcs/TULIPSCURFTUURF.pdf

It's important to note that Calvin taught double-predestination while Luther taught single-predestination.

Once your name is written into the Scroll of Life, it can't be removed, so Luther believed in unconditional election, but approaches the issue apart from Calvin's limited atonement and double-predestination.

Though, not mentioned in the TUURF link, Lutherans also teach vicarious atonement, which is linked to imputed faith. In Lutheranism, it really comes down to fully trusting in God to impute his faith, by means of grace through (Word and Sacrament). Our participation in the Sacrament of the Altar at Holy Communion is likewise a regenerative act taking place, renewing a "right spirit within us". The Holy Spirit regenerates as our ongoing sinning against the Spirit takes place, thanks to God's gracious act in the Lord's Supper. As Lutherans, we're confident in God's grace to exceed our fallen flesh and deprived nature. Satan forces us to question our salvation daily, but our imputed faith is sufficient to resist theses tendencies. Even when we're confident that we've failed, well you have, and we have failed alongside you too, but we know that God has eternally claimed us in his baptism and renewed us in his Last Supper. If you're truly repentant and truly trust in God, then you'll participate in his free gifts of grace found in his Word and Sacrament.

God gives you his free gifts of grace against your will, you can't make any choices for God, he has already eternally predestined them before you. Calvinist viewpoint of predestination is a two-way road with a large median that you can't cross over. Luther's approach to predestination is the road before you not yet traveled has already been planned out in advance; but side streets are available via Satan and your depraved nature. However, you aren't stuck on the side street, because getting back to your predestined path, the narrow path to Heaven, patiently awaits your return. The beauty of eternal election, is that God never gives up, and will always proactively work at getting you away from those distracting side streets.

Yes, there are those who perceive themselves too shy, sinful, disgust with themselves, prideful, greedy, lustful, dismayed, confused, and etc... who hide from God on the side streets; but our only concern with them is to evangelize the good news of those free gifts of grace (Word and Sacrament). Don't take the grace of God for granted and accept those free gifts in faith. Repent, partake of Holy Communion, pray for God's steadfast will to be his will for you, and live out your faith in confidence, justified in righteousness, before others.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

http://webzoom.freewebs.com/pastormattrichard/Divine%20Election.pdf

 

[Daniel Stinson]

Vicarious Atonement | What is Vicarious Atonement? | Define Vicarious Atonement | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[Daniel Stinson]

http://www.phc.edu/UserFiles/File/_Other%20Projects/Global%20Journal/8-2/JWMontgomery%20Free%20Will.pdf