Probability and evolution from natural causes

[xianghua]

A mere assertion.

How did you derive the sequence space?

by the amino acid combinations. a tipiclal protein is about 250-300 amino acid long. since there are about 20 kinds of amino acids there are about 20^300 possible different combinations.

 

[xianghua]

Again, please show that these numbers are accurate.

we know for instance that even one amino acid change in some cases can harm the protein function (hemoglobin is a good example). so even if we assume that we can change the hemoglobin about 10^50 times without make it non-functional, the chance to get a functional hemoglobin is very low compare to the whole space. we can even assume that there are about 10^50 other functions that arent hemoglobin, the chance is still very low.

 

[xianghua]

-_- look up how assembly lines work, and tell me we don't make cars stepwise.

true, but it need to be functional in every step. a car without wheels will not work.

 

[PsychoSarah]

true, but it need to be functional in every step. a car without wheels will not work.

-_- the car would turn on, and be able to function in terms of its radio, air conditioning/heating, and as a storage space. It just would be lacking one of its functions. Plus, since wheels have two basic parts (the rim and the rubber), cars can drive a bit just on the rims.

-_- as an previous owner of an HP laptop, I can say that you'd be amazed at how long you can keep a machine working without quite a few parts being functional. I kept that thing working despite a defective cooling system, screen, and battery. I finally trashed it when the keyboard and mouse malfunctioned, but was even able to get that to be manageable long enough to transfer my files to a thumb drive.

 

[tas8831]

by the amino acid combinations. a tipiclal protein is about 250-300 amino acid long. since there are about 20 kinds of amino acids there are about 20^300 possible different combinations.

And is it your implication that all proteins, and thus the genes that encode them, were 'created' all at once as is, and thus there is no problem?

Or are you implying that this is what evolution posits?

 

[Loudmouth]

we know for instance that even one amino acid change in some cases can harm the protein function (hemoglobin is a good example).

We also know that some other amino acid changes will not harm protein function, as shown by the equally functional cytochrome c genes found in different species that can differ by as much as 40% at the amino acid level.

Again, you need to show your math.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

they actually are, since im talking about an intelligent human that can change anything he want.

That's (partly) why they're not a good analogy.

... so do you think it's possible to make a functional sonar stepwise?

Sonar manufacturing assembly lines are stepwise.

Please make your argument or point, if you have one. I've asked you several times already, but you just continue asking inane questions. I'm only responding to be polite, but I'm not going to continue indefinitely.

 

[xianghua]

-_- the car would turn on, and be able to function in terms of its radio, air conditioning/heating, and as a storage space. It just would be lacking one of its functions. Plus, since wheels have two basic parts (the rim and the rubber), cars can drive a bit just on the rims.

-_- as an previous owner of an HP laptop, I can say that you'd be amazed at how long you can keep a machine working without quite a few parts being functional. I kept that thing working despite a defective cooling system, screen, and battery. I finally trashed it when the keyboard and mouse malfunctioned, but was even able to get that to be manageable long enough to transfer my files to a thumb drive.

and still, your pc would not function without a battery (or other source of energy) at all or without other critical parts. so such a pc cant be build in a functional stepwise.

 

[PsychoSarah]

and still, your pc would not function without a battery (or other source of energy) at all or without other critical parts. so such a pc cant be build in a functional stepwise.

-_- what if the power source is first, or if some parts are added at the same time? Nothing about evolution prevents structures from arising at the same time.

Also, as shown in abiogenesis experiments, cellular precursors don't need an "internal power source" because the environment itself provides for the basic needs.

 

[xianghua]

And is it your implication that all proteins, and thus the genes that encode them, were 'created' all at once as is, and thus there is no problem?

yep. because there isnt enough time.

 

[xianghua]

Sonar manufacturing assembly lines are stepwise.

but it will not be functional in every step. half a sonar will not wotk (and i refer to the critical parts). so a sonar cant evolve stepwise.

 

[xianghua]

-_- what if the power source is first, or if some parts are added at the same time? Nothing about evolution prevents structures from arising at the same time.

if so the chance is very low. if for instance the chance to one part is about one in 10^10 mutations then for 2 parts in the same time we will need 10^20 mutations.

 

[xianghua]

We also know that some other amino acid changes will not harm protein function, as shown by the equally functional cytochrome c genes found in different species that can differ by as much as 40% at the amino acid level.
.

so what? even if we can change about 70% of the protein sequence (about 70 aa in the cytochrome example) without any problem- we will still stay with 30% that we can't change. or about 20^30 different combinations that will make it invalid.

 

[PsychoSarah]

if so the chance is very low. if for instance the chance to one part is about one in 10^10 mutations then for 2 parts in the same time we will need 10^20 mutations.

-_- you're doing the math incorrectly, as if the two parts that arise at the same time have to be specific. Also, where are you getting this 10^10 thing from?

You are also blatantly ignoring me mentioning that the first part added could be the power source or that the power source wouldn't need to be a part of the item in question in the first place.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

but it will not be functional in every step. half a sonar will not wotk (and i refer to the critical parts). so a sonar cant evolve stepwise.

No, because manufactured sonars are not parts of biological organisms, and factory assembly isn't evolution

 

[xianghua]

-_- you're doing the math incorrectly, as if the two parts that arise at the same time have to be specific.

they need to be functional. so if the chance to get one functional part is about one in every bilion sequence then the chance to get them both is about 10^18.

Also, where are you getting this 10^10 thing from?

it's just for the sake of the argument. but it base on a logical conclusion.

You are also blatantly ignoring me mentioning that the first part added could be the power source

but it will be non functional if it will not connect to something.

 

[tas8831]

yep. because there isnt enough time.

Not enough time for what - your genome to exist?

 

[tas8831]

so what? even if we can change about 70% of the protein sequence (about 70 aa in the cytochrome example) without any problem- we will still stay with 30% that we can't change. or about 20^30 different combinations that will make it invalid.

Great.

But those genes that differ by 70% (or their encoded proteins) - how are they 30% similar?

In comparative genetics, one can see that alterations in genes (and even in noncoding regions) maps very nicely to evolution-based hypotheses of descent.

It is not that each gene is 'brand new' and just happen to vary by up to 70%, it is that those gene variants are derived from an ancestral gene.

Your math games are (purposefully) unnecessarily muddying the waters.

 

[tas8831]

but it will not be functional in every step.

How do you know?

The F-35 fighter is one of the most advanced aircraft ever made (at least when they work) - by your logic, since the Wright Brothers did not roll an F-35 out of their bicycle shop in 1903, it is impossible for the F-35 to exist.

half a sonar will not wotk (and i refer to the critical parts). so a sonar cant evolve stepwise.

Mere assertions, coupled with what appears to be a strawman.

 

[xianghua]

In comparative genetics, one can see that alterations in genes (and even in noncoding regions) maps very nicely to evolution-based hypotheses of descent.

if it's true then how many amino acid we will need to change a vision system into an olfactory system? if they are realy so close to each other (in the sequence space) then it will be easy to know the answer. i can predict that you cant find the answer to this question. am i right?

Mere assertions, coupled with what appears to be a strawman.

actually it's a fact. if you will remove some crucial parts from a sonar it will not work at all. so you will need at least several parts to form a working sonar.