Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates.

FreeinChrist

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"Complaining about" nothing. It was an amplification of the point raised by the previous poster.
You are not providing anything to show the vaccinated have higher death rates than the unvaccinated.
I see complaining, or grousing as my husband would say.
You wrote:

"Those people have been trying for decades to control more and more of everyone's private lives. When "public health" gave them the opportunity to order lockdowns, masking, vaccination mandates, defining where people are allowed to go or stand, or work, or pray...they were well on their way to having the authoritarian state that they have long favored.

And the "proof of the pudding" is, as has been shown many times, that they exempt themselves from the same regulations that they've imposed on the rest of the people!"​

Who are "those people"?
"
 
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Halbhh

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Yeah... not sure about that.....
Myself, I began reading newspapers extensively about age 12. And that was over 4 decades ago.

So there's been time enough for me to see the sights/get the perspective.

So, I can tell you what I've seen: NPR and PBS are far more neutral than almost any other news outlet you can find anywhere other than just the wire services themselves like AP and Reuters.

Maybe a lot of Religious Voices...... Doesn't mean those are Christian.

??? Ok, of course how would you know until you found out. Ok. That makes sense.

Of course you'd need an example.

Lemee pull up an example then.

Example of a Christian (strong) believer that shared her faith with millions over NPR radio:
On 'My Savior,' Carrie Underwood Sings For An Audience Of One
 
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DaisyDay

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Albion

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So, I can tell you what I've seen: NPR and PBS are far more neutral than almost any other news outlet you can find anywhere other than just the wire services themselves like AP and Reuters.
When you say "almost any other news outlet you can find anywhere other than..." you are framing the issue in a way that seeks to preclude all criticism.

The fact is, MOST American (and British) news outlets are far to the left in their reporting and editorializing, so it wouldn't hard at all to characterize NPR as not being as biased as they are.

Nevertheless, that doesn't make NPR neutral, as you claimed.

It does have a liberal bias and that's been recognized by others in the industry.
 
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wing2000

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Yes, but it's not really a big surprise. Those people have been trying for decades to control more and more of everyone's private lives. When "public health" gave them the opportunity to order lockdowns, masking, vaccination mandates, defining where people are allowed to go or stand, or work, or pray...they were well on their way to having the authoritarian state that they have long favored.

And the "proof of the pudding" is, as has been shown many times, that they exempt themselves from the same regulations that they've imposed on the rest of the people!

"Those people..." You write as if "those people" were just waiting for the right crisis to come along. And then infer their motive is an "authoritarian state." Absolute rubbish.

"Those people" are not the ones undermining American democracy....
 
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KCfromNC

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you are clearly cherry picking the data, Florida has the lowest cases of covid in the US and they don't force a Jab.
Accusations of cherry-picking, followed by cherry-picked data from one state that is known to cook the books with their covid numbers.
 
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Halbhh

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When you say "almost any other news outlet you can find anywhere other than..." you are framing the issue in a way that seeks to preclude all criticism.

The fact is, MOST American (and British) news outlets are far to the left in their reporting and editorializing, so it wouldn't hard at all to characterize NPR as not being as biased as they are.

Nevertheless, that doesn't make NPR neutral, as you claimed.

It does have a liberal bias and that's been recognized by others in the industry.

The Economist has also been excellent in neutrality, but I don't think many here would have read/heard of it.

How much have you, Albion, listened to NPR over the last year?

My guess: you, Albion, haven't listened much to NPR recently -- that you don't have any direct knowledge yourself of what you claimed here.

Tell you what -- go and Listen to NPR for about 50 hours during 2-4 weeks, and then get back to me, and then I will listen to your view without thinking it's based on little or no experience/direct knowledge.
 
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Albion

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The Economist has also been excellent in neutrality, but I don't think many here would have read/heard of it.
You don't? I'd be surprised if that were true.

My guess: you, Albion, haven't listened much to NPR recently -- that you don't have any direct knowledge yourself of what you claimed here.
Think whatever you want. Your claim about NPR still is incorrect.
 
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cow451

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"Those people..." You write as if "those people" were just waiting for the right crisis to come along. And then infer their motive is an "authoritarian state." Absolute rubbish.

"Those people" are not the ones undermining American democracy....
"They" are preferred over "Those people" by a 51-47% margin with 2% preferring "Them".
 
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Halbhh

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You don't? I'd be surprised if that were true.


Think whatever you want. Your claim about NPR still is incorrect.
Albion, how much have you listened to NPR in the last 6 months?

How many hours?

Tell me a site/source that is more neutral than NPR other than the 2 I've named: PBS and The Economist. (not counting of course wire news services like Reuters, as I've already pointed out are naturally able to be highly neutral)

Show me. What are those more neutral sources. I will personally check on them myself by actually listening/reading.

Because I'm not a person that gives a view and claims it's right without checking it myself by actually finding out for myself, directly.
 
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LeafByNiggle

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To everyone arguing about NPR bias:

For the record, I am a liberal. Not on everything, but on most things. But even I, from my liberal perspective, have noticed the liberal bias on NPR. But here is how it is expressed. When they interview someone from the right, they have harder questions, and are more argumentative toward that person. When they interview someone from the left, they go easy on that person and generally give him relatively more time. Also they are liberal in their choice of what stories to run and what stories to ignore. So I see the liberal bias of NPR expressed in terms of the editorial decisions they make.

However, when it comes to straight factual data, most news organizations with a reputation to uphold, including NPR and Fox News, one on the left and one on the right, are quite careful to get facts correct if those facts can be easily checked by anyone. The risk to their reputation is just too high. The difference between Fox News and NPR in this Trump voter vs covid report is that NPR is more likely to run the story and Fox News more likely not to run it. More likely does not mean never. Even Fox News once in a while runs a story that is more favorable to the left than to the right, just not so often.

With all that out of the way, I will turn now to the statistics at hand regarding Trump voting and covid vaccines and deaths. I do not doubt the accuracy of the two scatter plots after the 3rd paragraph in the NPR story. I can discount any analysis they might have of these plots as possibly biased. But the plots themselves I trust because it is too easy to check them. From these plots I can see a strong correlation between Trump voting and low vaccination rates. That should be a surprise to no one. I can also see a strong correlation between Trump voting and higher death rates. What I do not conclude from these scatter plots is that voting for Trump causes more covid deaths. The straight left-leaning take on these plots is that they show Trump votes are stupidly rejecting science and refusing vaccination. This conclusion comes from confusing correlation with causation. Whenever two things, A and B, are correlated, there are three possibilities. (1) A causes B. (2) B causes A. (3) Both A and B are caused by a third factor, C. In this case, factor C is living in a rural area. People who live is a rural area are more likely to vote Republican. But what else can living in a rural area cause? Well, living in a rural area means that a new disease spread by community contact is slower to spread in such a place. Remember that the NPR scatter plots show deaths starting in May 2021. What happened before May 2021? Well, a lot happened. The pandemic spread the fastest in places of high population density. People in high population densities tend to vote Democrat. So the Democrats were made personally aware of the dangers of the pandemic by seeing their neighbors die from April 2020 to May 2021. It is no surprise that people that are closer to a disaster feel the immediate danger of that disaster more keenly than people who observe that disaster from a distance, like the rural Trump voters. So it is no surprise that they felt less motivation to get vaccinated. It is also true that hospital services in rural areas have fewer capabilities and are often inadequate for certain unusual situations, such as a once in 100 year pandemic. Therefore when rural people did start getting infected with covid they has fewer options for testing and treatment was further away. So their death rates would be higher than people who has more immediate access to medical care.

So far I have analyzed just one factor that could account for the correlations, but there could be more. While I personally believe being a Trump voter probably does make surviving covid less likely, I don't think the NPR story proves it
 
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FreeinChrist

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I don't believe the NPR story purpose is to show Trump voters are "stupid", as some have accused, or that an individual Trump voter has a lower chance of surviving Covid. I have some Trump supporters in my family who got the vaccine and were happy to get it.

I believe the focus of the story is that the study showed the unvaccinated suffer a higher death rate than the vaccinated, and the counties with more Trump supporters have a higher death rate due to resistance to the vaccine by many Republicans due to misinformation.
 
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Sparagmos

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I am would have to look at it more closely, but don't you think it is odd that the virus skews on political lines. just an initial thought, with no data to back it up, could it rural vs city, or could it be rich vs poor. Trump votes do come from rural areas were access is limited. poor trump votes don't have access to vaccines. while poor biden voters live in metro areas and do. so that could be a possibility. just guessing though.
So you’ve been commenting here on it for almost two days and haven’t looked closely at it? You say "with no data to back it up," while ignoring the data in the OP? So you’re drawing conclusions based on nothing but your own uneducated assumptions?
 
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cow451

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I don't believe the NPR story purpose is to show Trump voters are "stupid", as some have accused, or that an individual Trump voter has a lower chance of surviving Covid. .
The facts speak for themselves.
 
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Halbhh

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To everyone arguing about NPR bias:

For the record, I am a liberal. Not on everything, but on most things. But even I, from my liberal perspective, have noticed the liberal bias on NPR. But here is how it is expressed. When they interview someone from the right, they have harder questions, and are more argumentative toward that person. When they interview someone from the left, they go easy on that person and generally give him relatively more time. Also they are liberal in their choice of what stories to run and what stories to ignore. So I see the liberal bias of NPR expressed in terms of the editorial decisions they make.

However, when it comes to straight factual data, most news organizations with a reputation to uphold, including NPR and Fox News, one on the left and one on the right, are quite careful to get facts correct if those facts can be easily checked by anyone. The risk to their reputation is just too high. The difference between Fox News and NPR in this Trump voter vs covid report is that NPR is more likely to run the story and Fox News more likely not to run it. More likely does not mean never. Even Fox News once in a while runs a story that is more favorable to the left than to the right, just not so often.

With all that out of the way, I will turn now to the statistics at hand regarding Trump voting and covid vaccines and deaths. I do not doubt the accuracy of the two scatter plots after the 3rd paragraph in the NPR story. I can discount any analysis they might have of these plots as possibly biased. But the plots themselves I trust because it is too easy to check them. From these plots I can see a strong correlation between Trump voting and low vaccination rates. That should be a surprise to no one. I can also see a strong correlation between Trump voting and higher death rates. What I do not conclude from these scatter plots is that voting for Trump causes more covid deaths. The straight left-leaning take on these plots is that they show Trump votes are stupidly rejecting science and refusing vaccination. This conclusion comes from confusing correlation with causation. Whenever two things, A and B, are correlated, there are three possibilities. (1) A causes B. (2) B causes A. (3) Both A and B are caused by a third factor, C. In this case, factor C is living in a rural area. People who live is a rural area are more likely to vote Republican. But what else can living in a rural area cause? Well, living in a rural area means that a new disease spread by community contact is slower to spread in such a place. Remember that the NPR scatter plots show deaths starting in May 2021. What happened before May 2021? Well, a lot happened. The pandemic spread the fastest in places of high population density. People in high population densities tend to vote Democrat. So the Democrats were made personally aware of the dangers of the pandemic by seeing their neighbors die from April 2020 to May 2021. It is no surprise that people that are closer to a disaster feel the immediate danger of that disaster more keenly than people who observe that disaster from a distance, like the rural Trump voters. So it is no surprise that they felt less motivation to get vaccinated. It is also true that hospital services in rural areas have fewer capabilities and are often inadequate for certain unusual situations, such as a once in 100 year pandemic. Therefore when rural people did start getting infected with covid they has fewer options for testing and treatment was further away. So their death rates would be higher than people who has more immediate access to medical care.

So far I have analyzed just one factor that could account for the correlations, but there could be more. While I personally believe being a Trump voter probably does make surviving covid less likely, I don't think the NPR story proves it
Let's get specific, and compare our perception in a friendly way.

Here's a useful calibration example.

How neutral is this Pbs report from today in your view?
Scale: Let 0.0 be far Left, 5.0 be perfectly neutral, and 10.0 be far Right.
What number would you give this:

To me I'd give that a 5.0. And I support education vouchers, and parents free to pick religious schools....

How about you? What number would you rate that calibration example?
 
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VladTheEmailer

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no, but it will change how they interpret them, what they report and what they leave out. let me give you an example

Reported Fact"

vaccine compliance is highest amount the college educated Bachlors & Master degrees.

This is true. what is implied here is that those how are smart get the vaccine and high school, uneducated and stupid don't. it is due to ignorance. What they don't tell you is that the highest educated class, PHD, reject the vaccine in higher numbers then the, High school level. so how are we to interpret that?

Well another way to look at is is those who are not forced to take the vaccine don't and those who are more afraid of loosing their jobs do.

Same facts different interpretation.

They never bothered to ask the PHD's for credentials, nor did the study involve medical professionals. They even admitted that many anti-vaxxers pretended to have a PHD when they replied. The whole thing was a survey done on facebook.
 
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