Pro-Life means sex creates souls?

AnticipateHisComing

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Because a soul without the body is unnatural and naked
"Unnatural and naked", got any scripture to back that up? Do you think Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration were ashamed to be without their bodies? Scripture says they were in such glory that the apostles wanted to put up monuments to them.

Luke 9:28 About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure,[a] which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. 32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33 As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)​
 
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AlexDTX

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No, it is JEWISH. Like Jesus.
That is an absurd comment. Just because Jesus was Jewish in his incarnation, does not mean he agreed with all their teachings. He rebuked the Pharisees and Sadducees for many things. Neither is the idea of life after death believed by Jews. This was the dispute between the Sadducees who believed we ceased to exist against the Pharisees who believed in life after death. The Sadducees, btw, won out and most Jews do not believe in life after death. The idea of life before birth is from the Kabbalah, not the Old Testament.

That is absolutely true. So how does forcing kids to have children when they are too young to be able to make a committed relationship, much less raise children properly, accomplish this sacred task?
Who forces kids to have have children when they are too young? And who is to say when is too young? We currently live in a world where children are infanticized well into their 30's. But generations ago, especially on the farms, 13 and 14 year olds began raising families because of higher infant mortality and they they matured faster since they were put to work on the farms as children.

It sounds like you're condoning premarital sex. I'm sure that's not the case, but you're getting way off topic and really aren't addressing the central issue of consciousness.
I am not condoning premarital sex, I am stating that when the law of reproduction is applied, children are born, and God wants all children to be born. The topic is soul and spirits existing before birth. My thesis is that they do not. They are created at the same time as the body when sperm and egg unite.

Consciousness comes from your spirit & soul ultimately, the brain is just the last stop. Why would a conscious soul want to bond with a microscopic worm? The notion of a soul with no consciousness is a fundamental theological self-contradiction.
You assume a conscious soul exists before conception, of which you have neither proof nor Scripture to support your assumption. Spirit and souls grow with the first cell.

Souls sleep in Sheol, but that is not consciousness annihilation, they dream and can be awakened. The idea of a soul with no consciousness is fundamentally contrary to the basic theologic principles of Judaism. The brain is just a computer that churns over the same data again and again. All new thought comes from higher consciousness, from your soul and spirit.
Where the heck do you get that idea? Not from the Bible. Sleep is metaphoric for death, in the Bible, not a concept of soul sleep. Frankly, I don't agree with the brain being merely a computer. This is why the doctrine of bodily resurrection is so important. We are triune beings: body, soul and spirit. Our bodies are not merely machines that we inhabit. They are us. We are made in the image of God as triune beings. I am my body, I am my soul, and I am my spirit.

You are relegating the soul to a purely material thing. That is materialism, not spirituality. Your soul is conscious before you were born and chose where to be born, just as it will continue to exist after you die.

Consider how God made Adam.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

First he made the body from the dust of the ground.
Second, he breathed the breath of life, aka gave him a spirit of life.
Lastly, he became a living soul which was the consequence of the spirit joining the body.

Without the body, there is no soul.

Finally, who cares what the Jews think. They rejected Yahweh when he became the man Christ Jesus our Savior. The Jews know nothing but their cultural traditions which are based upon the Talmud. The Talmud is the repository of all those traditions that Jesus rebuked.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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We know more than that. A baby can be filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb.

Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth,15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.​

This is a great example of the baptism or infilling of the Holy Spirit before baptism of water or being born of water.

John 3:5.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Born here in the Greek means to be born of water from a woman and being enticed to change and caused to arise. 1080
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Of course they can, after they have a heart and brain to feel anything at all. Not until the 3d trimester.

Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth,15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.​

Notice the abundance of the word 'will', in future-tense. The word 'is' in present-tense is never used.

Does the verse or chapter detail that she was already prego...later verses detail she was not prego yet? Does it tell you what trimester she was in? How do we know it is the third and not the first or will means the next day?
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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We know more than that. A baby can be filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb.
Of course they can, after they have a heart and brain to feel anything at all. Not until the 3d trimester.

Notice the abundance of the word 'will', in future-tense. The word 'is' in present-tense is never used.

Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth,15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.​


Will all you want. The only thing that matters to my post is that one was filled with the Holy Spirit before birth. To quibble over which trimester is only conjecture.

Please note that when the message was delivered to Zechariah, the baby was not even conceived yet, so all your wills prove absolutely NOTHING.

Luke 1:23 When his time of service was completed, he returned home. 24 After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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I see that theme repeated in other replies I haven't gotten to yet.

God telling humans to have lots of kids has nothing to do with when existence begins. Existence doesn't begin at conception. That is just a microbial worm, no conscious soul would want to be trapped in that. The soul decides beforehand where to be born, and I suspect we actually have to go thru a lot of 'red-tape' to earn the privilege to incarnate here, at the front lines of a cosmic war of angels.

Wait ...what? Is this biblical?
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth,15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.​


Will all you want. The only thing that matters to my post is that one was filled with the Holy Spirit before birth. To quibble over which trimester is only conjecture.

Please note that when the message was delivered to Zechariah, the baby was not even conceived yet, so all your wills prove absolutely NOTHING.

Luke 1:23 When his time of service was completed, he returned home. 24 After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion.

True dat true dat
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Consciousness comes from your spirit & soul ultimately, the brain is just the last stop. Why would a conscious soul want to bond with a microscopic worm? The notion of a soul with no consciousness is a fundamental theological self-contradiction.

Souls sleep in Sheol, but that is not consciousness annihilation, they dream and can be awakened. The idea of a soul with no consciousness is fundamentally contrary to the basic theologic principles of Judaism. The brain is just a computer that churns over the same data again and again. All new thought comes from higher consciousness, from your soul and spirit.

You are relegating the soul to a purely material thing. That is materialism, not spirituality. Your soul is conscious before you were born and chose where to be born, just as it will continue to exist after you die.

Please provide a bible verse about Sheol functioning in this way.

Please provide a bible verse where the soul chooses when and where it will go?

Is any of this backed by the Word of God?
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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I have never met a Christian who understood the OT spiritual cosmology vs. the more elaborate NT cosmology that borrows heavily from the much richer literary and philosophical traditions of Greece.

The world nephesh/soul is an elusive word, used 753 times, mostly translated as soul, but with 40+ other translations that are COMPLETELY different words. It is translated once as a dead body, perfume, and most interestingly of all, fish.

So even fish have nephesh, which is something more than just the English word soul. Clearly, they don't have individuated souls as we do. They have a collective soul, sort of like Jung's collective unconscious. Also, like the way some dogs have distinctive personalities across the entire breed. Lower animals have cookie cutter souls, all basically the same, and connected in a soupy network instead of individuated. The human comparison is like impoverish Muslims who still have tribal souls instead of individuated souls.

There's a lot more to say about the comparison between nephesh vs. pneuma, and ruach vs. psyche (soul). But I'm starting to ramble... lol

"Thy kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven." Eternal life after the Resurrection(s) will be here in the physical world. The "rapture" actually refers to evil people disappearing. Matthew compares those that disappear to those that were taken in the Flood.

Indeed, well spoken.
What i was referring to specifically is Genesis. God made flesh and blood bodies both man and animal and breathed the breath (spirit) of life into and the became living souls. How anybody uses the term soul isn't really something I was concerned with as I was comparing that to giving birth to a flesh and blood baby who's spirit has to come from somewhere.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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I have never met a Christian who understood the OT spiritual cosmology vs. the more elaborate NT cosmology that borrows heavily from the much richer literary and philosophical traditions of Greece.

The world nephesh/soul is an elusive word, used 753 times, mostly translated as soul, but with 40+ other translations that are COMPLETELY different words. It is translated once as a dead body, perfume, and most interestingly of all, fish.

So even fish have nephesh, which is something more than just the English word soul. Clearly, they don't have individuated souls as we do. They have a collective soul, sort of like Jung's collective unconscious. Also, like the way some dogs have distinctive personalities across the entire breed. Lower animals have cookie cutter souls, all basically the same, and connected in a soupy network instead of individuated. The human comparison is like impoverish Muslims who still have tribal souls instead of individuated souls.

There's a lot more to say about the comparison between nephesh vs. pneuma, and ruach vs. psyche (soul). But I'm starting to ramble... lol

"Thy kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven." Eternal life after the Resurrection(s) will be here in the physical world. The "rapture" actually refers to evil people disappearing. Matthew compares those that disappear to those that were taken in the Flood.

Indeed, well spoken.


Please provide biblical proof of ur findings for record keeping.
 
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There is only a *single* reference to going up rather than down in the OT. It is said as pure speculation, and it refers to the destination of the spirit rather than the soul. Ecclesiastes 3:21

If you do a search on BlueLetterBible.org for the Hebrew word Sheol, not some search on English interpretations, there are 63 verses that use the word Sheol, 23 of which also use the word down. Up never appears in conjunction with Sheol.
Can I check that I understand your comment right, I now think that I might have misunderstood you.

Did you mean to say that all human souls go to Sheol (because that is what I have read in it), whereas I know Ecclesiastes 3:21 shows that it is possible to speculate that some souls (including that of the beasts, fwiw) goes upward rather than downward? If we agree that some souls go upward and not all go to Sheol, then I can be satisfied that I don't need to investigate further.
 
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Fascinated With God

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That is an absurd comment. Just because Jesus was Jewish in his incarnation, does not mean he agreed with all their teachings. He rebuked the Pharisees and Sadducees for many things. Neither is the idea of life after death believed by Jews. This was the dispute between the Sadducees who believed we ceased to exist against the Pharisees who believed in life after death. The Sadducees, btw, won out and most Jews do not believe in life after death.
Though I was raised Methodist, I am Jewish by descent. So I can tell you that you are woefully uninformed about the religion Christianity is based on.

You are correct about the Sadducees believing in what would be called soul sleep in Christian theology, but they were wiped out. It was the Pharisees that wrote the Talmud, Midrash, Zohar, Tanya, etc...

Following the Jewish–Roman wars, revolutionaries like the Zealots had been crushed by the Romans, and had little credibility (the last Zealots died at Masada in 73 CE). Similarly, the Sadducees, whose teachings were closely connected to the Temple, disappeared with the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE. The Essenes too disappeared.

Of all the major Second Temple sects, only the Pharisees remained.

That was Wikipedia.

The idea of life before birth is from the Kabbalah, not the Old Testament.
That is not true.

There are many concepts which are alluded to in the Written Law but were only recorded fully in subsequent writings. Reincarnation is one such concept. Allow me to share just a few places where reincarnation is alluded to in the Written Torah. These are not places which shout "reincarnation" in bold letters but they do form part of a greater picture.

Ecclesiastics 1:4: "A generation departs and a generation comes." If this would refer to the normal flow of generations, a generation cannot come after the previous generation has gone. Rather this refers to the same soul(s) returning in consecutive lives.

Job 1:21: "Naked I left my mother's womb and naked I shall return there." Who comes back to their mom's womb? Enter reincarnation.

These are just a few samples. There are a number of such places scattered throughout the Torah. The bulk of what we know about reincarnation is from the Oral Torah and these are just a few places where this dynamic is evident in an almost offhand manner in the written part.
Where is reincarnation found in G‑d's word, as opposed to Man's word?

Behold, all these things does God do -- twice, even three times with a man -- to bring his soul back from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of the living. (Job 33:29)

In other words, God will allow a person to come back to the world "of the living" from "the pit" (which is one of the classic biblical terms for Gehinnom or "Purgatory") a second and even third (or multitude of) time(s). Generally speaking, however, this verse and others are understood by mystics as mere allusions to the concept of reincarnation. The true authority for the concept is rooted in the tradition.

Reincarnation and Jewish Tradition
 
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AACJ

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My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body.
Psalm 139:15

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.
Jeremiah 1:5​

Don't spirits and souls exist before conception? Why would two people having sex, force God's hand to automatically pop out a soul & spirit? That seems to me to go against divine omniPotence.
Procreation does not "force" God to do anything; no more, I believe, than the wheat harvest forces the farmer to harvest said wheat.
 
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AlexDTX

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Though I was raised Methodist, I am Jewish by descent. So I can tell you that you are woefully uninformed about the religion Christianity is based on.
So what. Your being born Jewish means absolutely nothing. I lived on a Kibbutz in Israel. That means nothing , too. Christianity is not based upon Judaism. It is not even based upon the Old Testament. It is based upon grace through faith which began in the garden of Eden. Are you a Karaite Jew? I think not. Karaites are persecuted by Jews since they reject the Talmud and only observe the TANAK.

Wikipedia is a godless liberal resource. I take what they write with a grain of salt.

However, it is clear you are convinced of your position, so I will not continue with this discussion. It is erroneous to believe we are spirits and souls before conception. You disagree. Fine. We will know on the other side of the veil.
 
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Fascinated With God

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Can I check that I understand your comment right, I now think that I might have misunderstood you.

Did you mean to say that all human souls go to Sheol (because that is what I have read in it), whereas I know Ecclesiastes 3:21 shows that it is possible to speculate that some souls (including that of the beasts, fwiw) goes upward rather than downward? If we agree that some souls go upward and not all go to Sheol, then I can be satisfied that I don't need to investigate further.
No, the verse in Ecclesiastes speculates about where spirits go after death. That is not mentioned anywhere else in the OT.

I once heard a Jewish girl talking about how confusing it was for her trying to grasp Christian cosmology because in Judaism everyone goes to Sheol.

The concept of going to heaven was a Greek import of Elysium. Peter also refers specifically to Tartarus, the place where Zeus cast the Titans, Chronos and the elder gods, but he has the fallen angels and eventually the damned there instead. Tartarus was said to be as far below Hades as Elysium is above Earth.
 
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Fascinated With God

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So what. Your being born Jewish means absolutely nothing. I lived on a Kibbutz in Israel. That means nothing, too. Christianity is not based upon Judaism. It is not even based upon the Old Testament. It is based upon grace through faith which began in the garden of Eden. Are you a Karaite Jew? I think not. Karaites are persecuted by Jews since they reject the Talmud and only observe the TANAK.
I don't live in SF, I live in NY. If you were as knowledgeable about Judaism as you claim you would know that SF is their only outpost in the US. And I told you I was raised Methodist. I'm a 6th generation Methodist in the same church.

When I do go to Temple I like Chabadh. The last 5 times I've felt the supernatural "peace that passeth understanding" was in the presence of, or reading literature given to me by a Chabadh rabbi.

Wikipedia is a godless liberal resource. I take what they write with a grain of salt.
I take it you hate academia. That does wonders for broadening your knowledge of the world.

We will know on the other side of the veil.
Well, I remember. One of my earliest memories is of dreaming of suddenly being in an old plywood country shack (which I had never seen the likes of at 4) as a dying elderly person.

As the room began to spin and the wind started to roar I screamed for my mother, and then was sucked up into the Light. Seemingly an instant later my mother shook me awake and I fell with a thud out of the Light, VERY upset that she had awakened me until I realized a moment later that I had screamed for her. The feeling of bliss, euphoria, and a profound sense of intense purpose and meaning to life were engulfing.

So I can directly confirm Luther's statements about the lack of sense of the passage of time in parts of Heaven because my mother was in the kitchen and it would have taken at least 5 seconds at a full sprint to get to me. Yet it seemed like I was in the Light for only an instant.
 
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Fascinated With God

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Procreation does not "force" God to do anything; no more, I believe, than the wheat harvest forces the farmer to harvest said wheat.
We're talking abortion here so comparing birth vs. abortion to harvesting seems rather inappropriate even to me, and I'm not Pro-Life.

I prefer facts and logical arguments to opinions and slogans. But thank you for your opinion anyway.
 
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What i was referring to specifically is Genesis. God made flesh and blood bodies both man and animal and breathed the breath (spirit) of life into and the became living souls. How anybody uses the term soul isn't really something I was concerned with as I was comparing that to giving birth to a flesh and blood baby who's spirit has to come from somewhere.
Some technical corrections: God breathed his neshama into Adam, not his ruach or ruach qodesh (Holy Spirit). And while the spirit is the breath of life in Hebrew, it is the psyche/soul that is the breath of life in the NT. Pneuma/spirit is considered fluidic. (That's where the term pneumatic drill, pneumatic brakes, etc.. comes from). I hesitate to say this, this doesn't seem like a group that has many personal divine experiences, but there have been times when I have drained myself so completely that as my spirit flowed back in it distinctly feels like water rushing in thru my back. So I think the swapping of the breath of life from the OT to the NT is a more accurate description of soul & spirit.
 
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