Pro-Life means sex creates souls?

[SPF]

A true definition of what defines human existence vs an intellectually contrived one.

Ok, so can you provide a working definition of human existence?

Being unconscious is not the same as never having been conscious at all.

No, but a person in a coma is not conscious. You cited consciousness as a prerequisite for being a true human being. That would lead to the conclusion that those in a coma are no longer true humans because they are not conscious.

As I said, the nature of antichrists is not specified in the OT. You need to give an alternative definition to make a meaningful counter-argument. You appear to have none.

You said, "There are clearly demonic souls like Hitler and Manson." What I'm asking is for you to explain what you mean by "demonic souls", and then show in Scripture where it teaches that there are different types of souls that people are born with, because if there are "demonic souls", then that must necessarily mean there are other types of souls that are not demonic, right? Surely you don't think you were born with a "demonic soul".

I've never read any commentary or theologian that has taught that people are born with different types of souls. I'm asking for you to support this assertion you've made, and responding with a singular word, "antichrists" is not sufficient.

I also wonder where these demonic souls currently reside since you seem to think that we exist in soul form prior to having a body. Must be a bummer for the demonic souls to be created that way.

 

[eleos1954]

Christ is uncreated, he was infinitely old before he was conceived. The notion that he bonded his spirit with a microbial worm at conception is masochistic. Christ is no [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], he would not want to be a worm.

Since we are all made in the image of God it would be inconsistent if our spirits were not made until conception and we had no pre-existence. The fact that we are not carbon copies of God doesn't mean we should be opposites with Christ infinitely old at conception and us 0.

The most significant verse to support this is about the lesser penalty for causing a miscarriage. The charge is a fine. But if he causes injury to the mother while causing the miscarriage it's an eye for an eye in Exodus 21:22-25:

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.[1]
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I believe that soul & spirit are conscious, the real source of consciousness in fact, and that no conscious being would want to be trapped in a microbial worm or a fetus that is visually indistinguishable from a chick fetus (at 7 weeks).

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He is the 2nd best verse confirming my assertion:

My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body.
Psalm 139:15-16
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The word frame is also translated as "bones" and "substance". Here are the other 2 verses where the same Hebrew word is used:

Deu 8:17
And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might H6108 of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.

Job 30:21
Thou art become cruel to me: with thy strong H6108 hand thou opposest thyself against me.
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Strong's definition of H6108 is: power, bones, might.

In Ephesians 1:21 Powers and Mights are two categories of angels. My implication here is that it refers to an angel-like spirit that is less formed. A baby angel if you will.



When I was 12 my grandfather who raised me brought up the subject of how my mother's side of the family had wanted my mother to get an abortion, but he fought ferociously against it. He went on at some length about it.

I remember thinking, I appreciate the sentiment, I was thankful to be raised by him, but I wasn't really that moved because my immediate thought was I would have simply been born somewhere else. Less ideal circumstances and genetics maybe, but I'd still be here.

Are you immortal?

1 Timothy 6:16

16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light.

 

[Fascinated With God]

Ok, so can you provide a working definition of human existence?

Sentient consciousness with an individuated soul, unlike animals who just have "soul", not "a soul". In the OT the word for soul is also translated as fish. Fish have soul too, but not a soul.

No, but a person in a coma is not conscious. You cited consciousness as a prerequisite for being a true human being. That would lead to the conclusion that those in a coma are no longer true humans because they are not conscious.

No, loss of consciousness is not the same as a rock that never had consciousness.

You said, "There are clearly demonic souls like Hitler and Manson." What I'm asking is for you to explain what you mean by "demonic souls", and then show in Scripture where it teaches that there are different types of souls that people are born with, because if there are "demonic souls", then that must

I said nothing about being born that way. This is all based on weird false presumptions about my opinion. What do you not understand about 'demonic' being evil?

 

[Fascinated With God]

Are you immortal?

Not yet!

1 Timothy 6:16

16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light.

That will change after the Resurrections. The same Greek word for immortal here is used in Corinthians with regards to the Resurrection.

1Co 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. G110

1Co 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, G110

 

[redleghunter]

We do not occupy a skin suit. Eternal life is physical. "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven". If you incorrectly define the nature of humanity in general then how can you define Christ's humanity?

Dude you really need to read my posts as you are accusing me of the very questions I am asking you.

 

[Fascinated With God]

Dude you really need to read my posts as you are accusing me of the very questions I am asking you.

I'm listening to you quite intently and not disrespecting your intelligence while you have lectured me on basic catechism as if you were informing me of something and repeatedly mischaracterized my assertions. Both are clear indications of who is not honestly listening to whom.

 

[Eloy Craft]

So animals have a spirit? Do they also choose their body?

The soul/spirit of animals is not material but it's source is material.
Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The soul/spirits of animals are made by earthly processes so they goeth downward. The soul of humans is spiritual in nature not made by earthly processes so it goeth upwards. All the powers of animal souls/spirits are found in their flesh. Vision found in the eyeballs for example. The power to digest food and use the nutrients ,found in the internal organs. Human souls have powers that are not found in our flesh. Will, reason and such. Our soul is spiritual in nature.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Then why are they separate terms in both Greek and Hebrew?

Seperate terms used because they are different. Paul describes the war between them in Romans 8. Sin causes rebellion, an internal struggle. The law of sin in the flesh. Isn't it like the sensitive powers of the soul have a will of their own? They do and they obey the law of death. The need to survive.

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12
This verse makes it clear that even though soul and spirit are very interrelated and difficult to differentiate, they are still definitely distinct.

I agree they are distinct.

Animals have the breath of life too and in the OT that is spirit. But it is soul in the NT, spirit (pnuema) refers to a fluid rather than a gas (and still does in mechanics). That is a just one example of many reasons why the subject is confusing for expert theologians even, much less laity.

Accurate descriptions of sensitive powers and intellective powers

There are 4 other species that can recognize themselves in a mirror. That is a big distinction in intellect. Elephants and dolphins in particular clearly display higher mental functions.

That isn't intellect. The primary function of intellect is to apprehend Truth because humans are naturally temporal and eternal. Earthly and spiritual. Animals are subject to the environments they inhabit. The4 elephant is responding to it's attachment to the dead animal which it smells in the bones. The ability to see themselves in the mirror is advanced but if it were intellect they would be changing the world too. The environment molds them to fit. Intellect allows man to make the environment fit. The transcendence of earthly life is internalized in man. Jesus showed us it's ultimate goal.

You are kind of rambling, that is not streamlined logic, but where do you get that God is not in the heart of angels? That is speculation, not Biblical.

I don't think I am. Angel hearts? Where do you get that? That is speculation.

That is poetic, not theological.

It is most theological. Which of the Divine Persons is three parts? The
Father or the Son or the Holy
Spirit? God is a community of Persons. The human family is a community of persons. A child reveals the love between a husband and wife. The Holy Spirit reveals the love between the Father and Son. God isn't one person as we are.

I can't follow because I don't know what spirates is a typo for. Inspirates doesn't make sense in the context, so I'm in the dark.

I should have used the word breathed. Spiration is a latin word meaning breathed.

 

[Fascinated With God]

I don't think I am. Angel hearts? Where do you get that?

Are angels heartless? You make very MATERIALISTIC interpretations of statements. That doesn't seem to me like the proper approach to spirituality.

I'll address the rest, but I've had an extremely busy day and it isn't over yet.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ is uncreated, he was infinitely old before he was conceived. The notion that he bonded his spirit with a microbial worm at conception is masochistic. Christ is no [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], he would not want to be a worm.

Since we are all made in the image of God it would be inconsistent if our spirits were not made until conception and we had no pre-existence.

Utter nonsense.

Creative writing.

Fiction.

Like the "story telling" that says "we were all made in the image of God so it would be inconsistent if we were not each one all-powerful and all-knowing"

That sort of creative writing - is not logical.

 

[Fascinated With God]

Utter nonsense.

Creative writing.

Fiction.

Like the "story telling" that says "we were all made in the image of God so it would be inconsistent if we were not each one all-powerful and all-knowing"

That sort of creative writing - is not logical.

That is pure opinion expressed without any supporting argument or verses. Such comments are purely polemic rhetoric, not a point of debate.

 

[Fascinated With God]

It is most theological. Which of the Divine Persons is three parts?

You would get hammered by any pastor or seminary student. The Trinity is not PARTS. I got hammered the 1st time I said that when I 1st got on ChristianForums 12 years ago.

 

[Fascinated With God]

Intellect allows man to make the environment fit.

Man had intellect long before we meaningfully changed the world. Changing the world is not the litmus test of intellect.

 

[Fascinated With God]

God isn't one person as we are.

Our soul and spirit are separate aspects of our consciousness, but not different *parts*. The language is confusing and tricky, the Trinity is separate persons but definitely not separate "parts". Calling the Trinity "parts" is polytheism and violates the Nicene Creed.

 

[Fascinated With God]

I agree they are distinct.

At least we agree on some things. In this case it is you and me vs. redlegunter.

Accurate descriptions of sensitive powers and intellective powers

Thank you. But I'm not sure what that agreement implies? How do we come from this same starting point to such different conclusions?

 

[Fascinated With God]

The law of sin in the flesh. Isn't it like the sensitive powers of the soul have a will of their own?

The Greek for soul is psyche, the Greek for "natural body" transformed into a spirit body is psychikos. Notice the strong etymological connection between psyche and psychikos, combined with the fact that we can suffer the 2nd death. "The soul is in blood" is repeated numerous times in the OT. The soul is closer to the physical nature than the spirit, which can be damaged but not destroyed. Even the damned suffer eternally.

They do and they obey the law of death. The need to survive.

A soul can suffer damage and eventually be destroyed.

 

[Albion]

So Christ's soul was infinitely old at ensoulment during conception, while our souls are 0 years olds at ensoulment.

You could put it that way. We did not exist until conception, but the Son of God, the Second person of the Trinity, always was.

That is not made in the image of God....

That would depend on what is meant by being created in the image and likeness of God. We are not made as little gods, but we are endowed with intelligence and an immoral soul, i.e. spirit -- which is usually understood to be the meaning of "image and likeness."

 

[Fascinated With God]

We are not made as little gods...

Ye are all gods.
‎Psalm 82:5, quoted again in John 10:34​

 

[Albion]

Ye are all gods.
‎Psalm 82:5, quoted again in John 10:34​

I hope you do not interpret that verse to mean that we all are literally demigods as were believed in the Greek and Roman religious systems, divine beings temporarily stuck in human forms, etc.

 

[Fascinated With God]

The soul/spirit of animals is not material but its source is material.
Ecclesiastes 3:21

Agreed.

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Show me a verse where the soul goes up? In the OT the soul always goes down to Sheol, which is not hell, it has a chasm between where good and evil people rest. -Luke 16.

The destination of the soul is never mentioned in the OT, only it's Resurrection or 2nd death.