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Featured Pro-Life means sex creates souls?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Fascinated With God, Oct 6, 2018.

  1. Fascinated With God

    Fascinated With God Traditional Apostolic Methodist

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    Christ is uncreated, he was infinitely old before he was conceived. The notion that he bonded his spirit with a microbial worm at conception is masochistic. Christ is no masochist, he would not want to be a worm.

    Since we are all made in the image of God it would be inconsistent if our spirits were not made until conception and we had no pre-existence. The fact that we are not carbon copies of God doesn't mean we should be opposites with Christ infinitely old at conception and us 0.

    The most significant verse to support this is about the lesser penalty for causing a miscarriage. The charge is a fine. But if he causes injury to the mother while causing the miscarriage it's an eye for an eye in Exodus 21:22-25:

    And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.[1]
    I believe that soul & spirit are conscious, the real source of consciousness in fact, and that no conscious being would want to be trapped in a microbial worm or a fetus that is visually indistinguishable from a chick fetus (at 7 weeks).

    He is the 2nd best verse confirming my assertion:

    My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body.
    Psalm 139:15-16
    The word frame is also translated as "bones" and "substance". Here are the other 2 verses where the same Hebrew word is used:

    Deu 8:17
    And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might H6108 of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.

    Job 30:21
    Thou art become cruel to me: with thy strong H6108 hand thou opposest thyself against me.
    Strong's definition of H6108 is: power, bones, might.

    In Ephesians 1:21 Powers and Mights are two categories of angels. My implication here is that it refers to an angel-like spirit that is less formed. A baby angel if you will.



    When I was 12 my grandfather who raised me brought up the subject of how my mother's side of the family had wanted my mother to get an abortion, but he fought ferociously against it. He went on at some length about it.

    I remember thinking, I appreciate the sentiment, I was thankful to be raised by him, but I wasn't really that moved because my immediate thought was I would have simply been born somewhere else. Less ideal circumstances and genetics maybe, but I'd still be here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
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  2. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    Why do you think sex could result in conception outside the will of God? If a woman conceived, obviously this was God's Will that weaves together in the womb, as the Psalmist says.
     
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  3. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why should two people having sex not think that the responsibility of a baby could be an outcome of their self-centered desire to have sex?
     
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  4. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    I think you would find science always confirms that the male's sperm and female's egg do not grow to a person independently of each other, so therefore it is the successful uniting of them that produces life as the consequence.

    Contrary to Reports, There is No Flash of Light at Conception

    A living person is a soul (the awareness and expression, of the self). The spirit is what breathes through the person to have an influence upon reality, intending to "spread" from one to another (eg: John 10:10, John 15:3, Romans 5:12, Romans 5:17).

    I don't know where you have picked up the idea of a soul existing before conception. I know that some doctrines have been created (specifically as I am thinking of a specific cult), to solve problems of questions raised in the course of their teaching. I wonder if your words reflect having picked up on ideas that have been formed that way.

    Spirits may be holy or angelic (as in the absence of sin, is love - God is love, therefore the spirit in the absence of sin is holy: The Holy Spirit. "Remain in me and you will bear much fruit"). Conversely, if we do not remain in the state of love such that God abides in us, we fall as a slave of sin, having been taken captive by the spirit that we have subjected ourselves to through yielding our mind to follow it instead of the truth that would empower God instead (Romans 6:16, John 8:31-36).
     
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  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Traducian view as presented in scripture is: In Christian theology, traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul (or synonymously, "spirit"), holding that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings.

    That is, the soul forms in the womb just as our fingers and arms do.
     
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  6. Fascinated With God

    Fascinated With God Traditional Apostolic Methodist

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    Because we have free will. and you can't blame everything on God. Once you start down that road you've got to blame God for ALL evil actions. Do you want to put the responsibility of all that on God as well? You can't have it both ways, if he is responsible for our free will actions he has to take all responsibility for all human actions. Do you think Charles Manson was God's will?

    No, it says "in the secret place in the depths of the earth". That is not the womb.
     
  7. Fascinated With God

    Fascinated With God Traditional Apostolic Methodist

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    That does not address the question of how souls and spirits are supposedly being created automatically at conception by HUMANS and not God. That reduces God to nothing but an automation and puts US in control of creating souls and spirits. Nowhere in the Bible does it even remotely suggest we have that power.
     
  8. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    This is a silly fallacy of equivalence. If people have sex, they won't necessarily conceive. Whether they do or not, has no bearing on their free will - even in vitro often fails. You can choose to have sex, but not to conceive or not.

    Likewise if someone stabs or shoots someone else, whether they live or die from that wound, is out of the control of the assailant.
    Psalms 139:13
     
  9. Fascinated With God

    Fascinated With God Traditional Apostolic Methodist

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    Atheists believe that existence begins at conception too. Why do you bring up science when I ask about souls and spirits? What does science know about that?

    Then why does one's nephesh (soul) go to Sheol after death in the Old Testament?

    None of your verses even address the subject of spirit, and you clearly don't understand the original languages. In Hebrew, the spirit (ruach) is the breath of life, while in Greek the soul (psyche) is the breath of life. As soon as someone starts using the word "breath" to describe the soul or spirit without being aware of this distinction, automatically reduces their credibility in my mind.

    Simplistic theological deduction, and then I discovered it is what Jews believed. Jesus was a Jew after all.

    Judaism is not a cult. Jesus was never a member of a cult! LOL Blind faith in something you can't accurately describe even the most orthodox aspects of, is significantly more cultish.

    Thanks for the sermon. None of that address my question at all.
     
  10. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, you are correct on the "didn't answer the question." No, you are incorrect on your assertions of what my comment means with regard to God.

    As far as souls and spirits. I don't believe that soul and spirit are the same. I believe we mirror God. I believe our souls come into existence at conception and from God. I don't believe we are born with a spirit until we are born again. We are a living soul from conception through the First Adam, we become a living spirit through the Second Adam.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  11. Fascinated With God

    Fascinated With God Traditional Apostolic Methodist

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    Only in cases of medical issues or monthly timing. For the vast majority, sex during ovulation automatically leads to pregnancy.

    So then it was God's fault and not Charles Manson's? You would make a terrible defense lawyer for God.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  12. Fascinated With God

    Fascinated With God Traditional Apostolic Methodist

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    Yes, God has 3 parts and so do we.

    Can you provide Biblical references to support this belief that we do not have a spirit at birth?
     
  13. Fascinated With God

    Fascinated With God Traditional Apostolic Methodist

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    Wow! You taught me something. That is mournfully rare these days on spiritual topics. I'll read about traducianism, there seems to be quite a lot on the topic, and then reply.
     
  14. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    You are wrong. On day of ovulation, with partner having a good sperm count and patent fallopian tubes, studies have shown a chance to conceive of between 20% to 35%. That is beside the point though.
    Fallacious, as I said. Humans are responsible for our actions, but we have no control over ancilliary events.


    This is a tad silly, so I am done. Good day, sir.
     
  15. Sorn

    Sorn Active Member

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    The scriptures in the OP talk about God knowing about an individual being conceived, not about him 'wanting' that to happen or of Him making that individual. God also knows when someone is murdered but that does not mean it is His will that they be murdered.
     
  16. Sorn

    Sorn Active Member

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    "Why would two people having sex, force God's hand to automatically pop out a soul & spirit?"
    Probably because he was ok with this, knew it would be this way and was prepared to follow through with creating a soul with every conception. Maybe there is some automatic spiritual mechanism that does it.

    Another possibility is that we do not have souls but at the moment of our death God creates a soul for us in order to preserve us and our uniqueness so we can be resurrected.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  17. Sorn

    Sorn Active Member

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    In the psalm the bible is recording what the psalmist said when he was praising and worshiping God.
    It should not be read that the Psalmist had some secret knowledge that we do not posses, rather the other way around and from the point of view of someone with the scientific knowledge that was known back then (ie zero), then from their point of view God did just about everything that was in any way mysterious. The psalm passage is recording what was said, not what actually happens.
     
  18. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is a fascinating topic with ample scriptural support.
     
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  19. Fascinated With God

    Fascinated With God Traditional Apostolic Methodist

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    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  20. Fascinated With God

    Fascinated With God Traditional Apostolic Methodist

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    There is nothing secret about omnipotence.
     
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