Pro-Fetal Life

[Edyos]

My mother would give her life to save my life, a mothers love for her child is very strong. I'm sure most mothers would give their life for their children.
Society considers an unborn child to be sub human and not to be worth as much as a baby who has been born.

Human life begins at the point of conception, scientists have discovered that there is a flash of light at the point of conception. This is the light of life, when the spirit of the person unites with their body so it's not a potential human as many claim, it's actually a whole person in the womb.

The Bible places the same value on a fetus, as it does on a fully formed person.

Dear friend, I do agree with you. Another person told me the same. I think I did not explain myself right.

Here is what I answered him:

"Ok, maybe I generalized it. I give you an example so i can explain myself.
Let's say a mother is pregnant in the third month, she then finds out that she has cancer and the only way to save herself is to use chemotherapy, but if she does it will kill the baby.

What do you do in this case?
I would personally choose the mother, not because it is more moral, it just makes more sense.

But it can be anything really, there is a building on fire and there is a room full of fetuses boxes and there is a little girl, you can save only one? who would you save? the girl of course, because it is more logical, she is alive and been born already. It doesn't mean that the fetus or baby is not alive."

 

[Dan1988]

Dear friend, I do agree with you. Another person told me the same. I think I did not explain myself right.

Here is what I answered him:

"Ok, maybe I generalized it. I give you an example so i can explain myself.
Let's say a mother is pregnant in the third month, she then finds out that she has cancer and the only way to save herself is to use chemotherapy, but if she does it will kill the baby.

What do you do in this case?
I would personally choose the mother, not because it is more moral, it just makes more sense.

But it can be anything really, there is a building on fire and there is a room full of fetuses boxes and there is a little girl, you can save only one? who would you save? the girl of course, because it is more logical, she is alive and been born already. It doesn't mean that the fetus or baby is not alive."

Your right, I wouldn't argue with a person who likes Charles Spurgeon. He just happens to be my favorite preacher. I am very much against abortion in general, I think the only exception would be the situation you mentioned above.

There's a portion of scripture which speaks about those women who aborted their babies as having blood soaked gowns in Gods sight. They are an abomination in Gods sight and they will be cast into hell for murdering their unborn child.

There's really no other acceptable reason to abort a child apart from the certain death of the mother, if she doesn't abort it.

 

[Edyos]

Your right, I wouldn't argue with a person who likes Charles Spurgeon. He just happens to be my favorite preacher. I am very much against abortion in general, I think the only exception would be the situation you mentioned above.

There's a portion of scripture which speaks about those women who aborted their babies as having blood soaked gowns in Gods sight. They are an abomination in Gods sight and they will be cast into hell for murdering their unborn child.

There's really no other acceptable reason to abort a child apart from the certain death of the mother if she doesn't abort it.

Haha he is my favorite too!! Yes, there are exceptions. I am totally against abortion. In fact this week we are going to protest in front of the hospital.

Good to see another brother who likes Charles. Cheers

 

[Dan1988]

Haha he is my favorite too!! Yes, there are exceptions. I am totally against abortion. In fact this week we are going to protest in front of the hospital.

Good to see another brother who likes Charles. Cheers

Most "Christians" don't like preachers who believe in predestination and election. They like to hear that salvation is in their own hands and they can choose to save themselves by believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

All of my family and most of my friends and relatives are Roman Catholic, they find the idea of election ludicrous. They accuse the God I believe in with all kinds of evil, and you can't convince them that election is Biblical.

90% of other Christian denominations are against the Reformed Church. Most believe in free choice, they don't believe that God is sovereign over everything including salvation.

 

[Edyos]

Most "Christians" don't like preachers who believe in predestination and election. They like to hear that salvation is in their own hands and they can choose to save themselves by believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

All of my family and most of my friends and relatives are Roman Catholic, they find the idea of election ludicrous. They accuse the God I believe in with all kinds of evil, and you can't convince them that election is Biblical.

90% of other Christian denominations are against the Reformed Church. Most believe in free choice, they don't believe that God is sovereign over everything including salvation.

Well, If you believe that you can save yourself believing in the gospel, or you believe that God chooses who will be saved or not (Calvinist) It doesn't really matter as long it doesn't make you run away from faith.

 

[Dan1988]

Well, If you believe that you can save yourself believing in the gospel, or you believe that God chooses who will be saved or not (Calvinist) It doesn't really matter as long it doesn't make you run away from faith.

That's right, I'm not saying that having the wrong view of this doctrine is a deal breaker. A person will not lose their salvation if they have the wrong view of how they are saved. The only thing that really matters is they trust and obey the Lord Jesus Christ.

I worry when I hear Christians saying, you need to do good works and resist sin as much as possible, don't drink or smoke, don't do this and that. Jesus simply said, "as many as believe in me shall be saved". So the key is to believe in Him and trust Him to do the work of salvation in our lives.

Every time I relied on myself to do the right thing, I messed up but every time I trusted in Christ to do it through me He succeeded. So He is the author and finisher of our salvation, our part is to trust and obey.

 

[SPF]

And that's how you derail a topic....

 

[Edyos]

That's right, I'm not saying that having the wrong view of this doctrine is a deal breaker. A person will not lose their salvation if they have the wrong view of how they are saved. The only thing that really matters is they trust and obey the Lord Jesus Christ.

I worry when I hear Christians saying, you need to do good works and resist sin as much as possible, don't drink or smoke, don't do this and that. Jesus simply said, "as many as believe in me shall be saved". So the key is to believe in Him and trust Him to do the work of salvation in our lives.

Every time I relied on myself to do the right thing, I messed up but every time I trusted in Christ to do it through me He succeeded. So He is the author and finisher of our salvation, our part is to trust and obey.

It is true that we receive salvation through faith alone, but also a real Christian will have fruits agree with me?

"Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." Matthew 7:17-20

A true Christian does not do works that upset the holy spirit or against God.

In verse 21 it says 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

also, you can find it in verse 24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

It is not enough only to confess and say that you believe that Christ died on the cross but then live in the world like the rest of the world. Because the ones that live like the rest of the world are enemies to God.


"You adulterers! Don't you realize that friendship with the world makes you an enemy of God? I say it again: If you want to be a friend of the world, you make yourself an enemy of God." James 4:4

We cannot do it by ourselves as you said, we need the strength of the holy spirit. but we also must live a life that will bring fruit to God.

 

[Hank77]

There's a portion of scripture which speaks about those women who aborted their babies as having blood soaked gowns in Gods sight. They are an abomination in Gods sight and they will be cast into hell for murdering their unborn child.

Which scripture is this?

 

[RaymondG]

Which scripture is this?

If one looks hard enough, they can back any belief with words in the bible...

 

[Dan1988]

Which scripture is this?

I forgot thye actual verse and chapter but the Bible is very clear that abortion is sacrificing children to Demons and all those who do it will burn in hell forever.

 

[Dan1988]

It is true that we receive salvation through faith alone, but also a real Christian will have fruits agree with me?

"Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." Matthew 7:17-20

A true Christian does not do works that upset the holy spirit or against God.

In verse 21 it says 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

also, you can find it in verse 24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

It is not enough only to confess and say that you believe that Christ died on the cross but then live in the world like the rest of the world. Because the ones that live like the rest of the world are enemies to God.


"You adulterers! Don't you realize that friendship with the world makes you an enemy of God? I say it again: If you want to be a friend of the world, you make yourself an enemy of God." James 4:4

We cannot do it by ourselves as you said, we need the strength of the holy spirit. but we also must live a life that will bring fruit to God.

Yes we judge every tree by it's fruits but we can't know who Gods elect are, some live like reprobates all their lives and convert on their death bed. we are commanded to love our enemies, because it's not for us to know who the elect are.

 

[SPF]

I forgot thye actual verse and chapter but the Bible is very clear that abortion is sacrificing children to Demons and all those who do it will burn in hell forever.

No offense, but if you’re going to claim something like that you’re going to need to support it.

I’m also pretty sure that abortion is not the unforgivable sin. I don’t think abortion is greater than Christ’s sacrifice, do you?

 

[Hank77]

I forgot thye actual verse and chapter but the Bible is very clear that abortion is sacrificing children to Demons and all those who do it will burn in hell forever.

I don't know of any such verse. If there were such a verse pro-life people would quote it all the time.

 

[stevevw]

There are some on CF who say that abortion should not be permitted even to save the life of the pregnant woman. These people call themselves "pro-life," yet that support a position that would likely result in the death of one of the parties involved, namely the pregnant woman.

How can they claim to be pro-life if they support such a position? They are, at best, pro-fetal life.

Please don't argue that this only affects a small number of abortions. That isn't the point of this thread.

Though both have the right to life I think if everything is equal I think it is silly to say let the mother die to save the child. But there may be other circumstances that will help make the decision. Such as there may be other children who need their mother, either the mother or baby may be very ill and unlikely to survive even if saved. I am sure doctors will think of everything to try and save both.

This must be a very rare situation and I cannot see how this would happen. If the pregnancy went wrong and it was threatening the women then the baby will have already been affected badly. Usually this is like an epitopic pregnancy. But all other situations that may threaten the mother in giving birth can probably be dealth with through suzerain section. There may be some problem where the mothers health changes and the longer the pregnancy goes on the more it may effect the mothers health. But I cannot see many situations where it would come down to the mother or the baby.

 

[Archivist]

Though both have the right to life I think if everything is equal I think it is silly to say let the mother die to save the child. But there may be other circumstances that will help make the decision. Such as there may be other children who need their mother, either the mother or baby may be very ill and unlikely to survive even if saved. I am sure doctors will think of everything to try and save both.

This must be a very rare situation and I cannot see how this would happen. If the pregnancy went wrong and it was threatening the women then the baby will have already been affected badly. Usually this is like an epitopic pregnancy. But all other situations that may threaten the mother in giving birth can probably be dealth with through suzerain section. There may be some problem where the mothers health changes and the longer the pregnancy goes on the more it may effect the mothers health. But I cannot see many situations where it would come down to the mother or the baby.

"According to the CDC, about 700 U.S. women die every year as a result of high-risk pregnancy or delivery complications, while up to 50,000 women nearly die due to severe complications such as heart attacks or hemorrhages during pregnancy or delivery." The full article can be found here: U.S. Women Are Dying of High-Risk Pregnancy Complication | Women’s Health. The risk is much higher in developing nations.

 

[stevevw]

"According to the CDC, about 700 U.S. women die every year as a result of high-risk pregnancy or delivery complications, while up to 50,000 women nearly die due to severe complications such as heart attacks or hemorrhages during pregnancy or delivery." The full article can be found here: U.S. Women Are Dying of High-Risk Pregnancy Complication | Women’s Health. The risk is much higher in developing nations.

The reason the risk is higher in developing nations is that they do not have access to proper life-saving equipment and doctors. In these situations, the women have had a complication during pregnancy and this will threaten both the mother and baby. I am sure every effort is made to save the mother and it would only be if the mother had died or was about to die that the child would be saved and not the mother.

According to the report, women in the US are dying at increasing rates and the deaths are preventable. It seems not enough prenatal care is being given to identify issues and to take precautions. At the same time, infant mortality rates are improving. Could this be that despite being in a country that is basically pro-abortion babies lives have been given more importance than women?

 

[coffee4u]

Dear friend, I do agree with you. Another person told me the same. I think I did not explain myself right.

Here is what I answered him:

"Ok, maybe I generalized it. I give you an example so i can explain myself.
Let's say a mother is pregnant in the third month, she then finds out that she has cancer and the only way to save herself is to use chemotherapy, but if she does it will kill the baby.

What do you do in this case?
I would personally choose the mother, not because it is more moral, it just makes more sense.

But it can be anything really, there is a building on fire and there is a room full of fetuses boxes and there is a little girl, you can save only one? who would you save? the girl of course, because it is more logical, she is alive and been born already. It doesn't mean that the fetus or baby is not alive."

I am pro life.
What I would do is keep the mother closely monitored in the hospital with all the medical treatment available being used and have her deliver the baby at the very earliest possible time, probably by cesarian section. Cancer During Pregnancy
From that article "During the second and third trimesters, doctors can give several types of chemotherapy without apparent risk to the fetus."

The youngest surviving premature baby was born in San Antonio, Texas, in 2014. She was born at 21 weeks gestation and survived. So my reply is why look to murder if there is the slightest chance of life for both. 20 years ago babies born any younger than 24 weeks didn't survive but with modern technology, this is coming down even further. 13-17 weeks is 3 months, so even waiting 4-8 weeks would give the baby a chance at surviving, meanwhile the mother could be having chemotherapy. Why look towards abortion as a solution instead of premature birth? True the baby might not survive, but at least he or she has been given a chance.

Abortion for the mother's life is exceedingly rare but abortionist like to use this as a tool "mother's lives!" The vast majority of the 652,639 abortions in the US alone just in 2014 had nothing to do with the mother's life being at risk.