Pro-Choice Versus Pro-Life

[mathetes123]

eggs and sperm are life?

Yes. That's where babies come from.

 

[JustMeSee]

When does life begin?

eggs and sperm are life?

Yes. That's where babies come from.

When does life begin?

When sperm and eggs are developed.

Is sperm alive? | sciencefocus.com

 

[trientje]

I can't speak for the people in the video, but to me those arguments are not convincing.

The experience of a fetus (not a "baby" or a "child", a fetus) is qualitatively different from that of an adult, a child, or even that of a neonate. Depending on the stage of development, they cannot breathe on their own. They cannot see, cannot hear, cannot even think. Qualitatively in terms of function and existence, it isn't really any more a human being than a teratoma.

In addition, the question "when does it become a human being" is misguided, because it implies the answer is a dichotomy - one day it isn't, the next day it is. Just like how the definitions of adulthood, or adolescence, or maturity are continuously defined and depend on context and the measures employed, so too is the definition of humanity.

Furthermore, the developing organism is completely dependent on the mother to survive. This is really a unique situation in a 'normal' human lifetime, where even the function of carrying oxygen to the body's tissues is dependent on another apparatus. However, a fetus shares several parallels with people in persistent vegetative states. The major difference is that the natural history of the fetus tends toward greater function, whereas the natural history of a person in a persistent vegetative state is generally neutral. Even so, the fact that a decision can be made to end the life of an adult in this state means that such a decision can also be made for a fetus. Assuming the concern is on the individual's experience rather than their future potential, I do not see any qualitative difference between the experience of "coma guy" (so to speak) and the fetus. The assumption is that the individual in a vegetative state will not consciously perceive the act of killing them, and I see no reason why this assumption should not be extended to the fetus. Both have reflexes to stimuli, but in neither case is that taken for a sign of consciousness or self-awareness.

thank you for watching the film and thanks for your opinion. It does seem like you have it all figured out.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

thank you for watching the film and thanks for your opinion. It does seem like you have it all figured out.

No problem.

When sperm and eggs are developed.

Is sperm alive? | sciencefocus.com

If we wanted an arbitrary point, we could define that as the point at which the individual starts producing their own sperm/eggs?

 

[JustMeSee]

If we wanted an arbitrary point, we could define that as the point at which the individual starts producing their own sperm/eggs?

Not until puberty for males?

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Not until puberty for males?

 

[JustMeSee]

You made me have to think. Don't do that.

 

[Belk]

The whole war argument is flawed in two ways. One, it is a straw man argument because war is in no way analogous to abortion

That would not be a straw man, it could be a bad analogy. A Straw man is a very specific type of logical fallacy not just a badly constructed argument.

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And since it is not intended as an analogy but to demonstrate a single point it is in no way a bad analogy.

and two you assume war is never justified which is not true. Surely you would not make the argument that we should not have gone to war with hitler?

I in no way hinted that I believe war is unjustified. The sole reason that war is brought up, in point of fact, is to counter the claim of unjustified killing. It points out the very real fact that most people believe killing is justified under some circumstances. Even when that killing results in dead women and children.

 

[Belk]

You obviously feel differently about abortion. I like what this guy wrote.

I do. Could you please answer whether that is a fair summation of your position?

 

[IzzyPop]

It seems to me the burden to demonstrate rationality falls on the one trying to justify killing an unborn baby for the convenience of the mother.

Yeah. See 'unborn baby' and 'convenience of the mother'? Those are phrases designed to stir an emotional appeal and not place the discussion into a realm of facts.

Thanks for watching the movie and expressing your opinion. Could you explain rational in regards to this movie?

Comfort is deliberately using words and phrases to elicit an emotional reaction. When the respondents pause for a moment so they can choose their words he jumps in aggressively with an even harsher question, virtually guaranteeing that the responder will be placed on the defensive. Notice the white supremacist and how much time is spent talking to him? Why even include this yahoo unless it is to make a pro-choice person uncomfortable? And the comparison to the Holocaust is wrong on multiple levels and is included merely as a tool to make the pro-choice person squirm on an emotional level.

 

[chilipepper]

when a woman is in a crisis they aren't thinking clearly and are unable to make good choices without guidance. that is true with anyone in a crisis situation. And what we try to do is present to them logical alternatives. It has nothing to do with a person's intelligence. when you say you do not want to be forced to continue a pregnancy, who are you thinking of? Just yourself. You are not thinking of the life that is within you. Actions have consequences. Your chose to have sex, but by not wanting to give the life inside of you a chance to also live you are committing a very selfish act.

So it all comes down to poor hysterical women not being able to think clearly. Of course. I am not denying that actions have consequences. But in no other situation do we force people to just deal with the consequences, without any options.
Indeed it is selfish. When it comes to my body I will absolutely be selfish.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

So it all comes down to poor hysterical women not being able to think clearly. Of course. I am not denying that actions have consequences. But in no other situation do we force people to just deal with the consequences, without any options.
Indeed it is selfish. When it comes to my body I will absolutely be selfish.

At what point does it become murder, in your view?

 

[chilipepper]

At what point does it become murder, in your view?

Past the point when the fetus/baby/whatever you want to call it can exist outside of the mother's body.

Edit to add: And at that point I wouldn't even call it murder. Murder implies malicious intent. I would call it ethically wrong, but murder...no.

 

[dollarsbill]

The more I read about abortion the more sickening it gets.

 

[trientje]

So it all comes down to poor hysterical women not being able to think clearly. Of course. I am not denying that actions have consequences. But in no other situation do we force people to just deal with the consequences, without any options.
Indeed it is selfish. When it comes to my body I will absolutely be selfish.

No, in a crisis situation we all have trouble making good decisions because emotion takes over. To have someone by their side to help them is a good thing. When a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy she certainly does have options. You have options. You have decided to be selfish.

 

[chilipepper]

No, in a crisis situation we all have trouble making good decisions because emotion takes over. To have someone by their side to help them is a good thing. When a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy she certainly does have options. You have options. You have decided to be selfish.

Yes, and people like yourself would like to limit what options I have. I've never had an abortion but if I got pregnant right now I would. And yes it would be selfish. Sometimes people need to be selfish.

 

[mathetes123]

Past the point when the fetus/baby/whatever you want to call it can exist outside of the mother's body.

Edit to add: And at that point I wouldn't even call it murder. Murder implies malicious intent. I would call it ethically wrong, but murder...no.

If dependence on the mother is the criterion a baby cannot survive on its own after birth. Would you support infanticide?

 

[Skaloop]

If dependence on the mother is the criterion a baby cannot survive on its own after birth. Would you support infanticide?

A baby is not dependent on the mother; it's dependent on someone, but that need not be the mother.

The difference is that a baby can survive under the care of someone other than its mother. A fetus cannot.

 

[JustMeSee]

If dependence on the mother is the criterion a baby cannot survive on its own after birth. Would you support infanticide?

I would not support infanticide.

 

[mathetes123]

A baby is not dependent on the mother; it's dependent on someone, but that need not be the mother.

The difference is that a baby can survive under the care of someone other than its mother. A fetus cannot.

Premature babies less than 2 lbs have survived outside the womb.