"Pro-Choice" or "Pro-Life"

[EnemyPartyII]

Phineas2

Then God help America. However it is murder according to God’s word, and I fear God more than man.

Please show me where "God says" abortion is murder? Chapter and verse?

I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that the OT and Talmudic tradition say an unborn child, baby, foetus, whatever you want to call it, isn't considered a person.

Or do you just intend to ignore this question?

 

[sk8Joyful]

So,
when God kills a foetus, its OK,
but when a human does it, it isn't?

God being PRO-life too, His Divine will takes a miniscule few.

Humanity, calling murder or suicide "spontaneous, & natural, & abortions", SELFISHly often indiscriminately kill the vast majority of God's children.

I am pro-life, with no exceptions.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Pro-life - no exceptions .......... it saddens me that Christians are even debating this.

ditto

 

[EnemyPartyII]

God being PRO-life too, His Divine will takes a miniscule few.

Humanity, calling murder or suicide "spontaneous, & natural, & abortions", SELFISHly often indiscriminately kill the vast majority of God's children.

I am pro-life, with no exceptions.

Actually, 1 in 4 of ALL pregnancies ends in natural miscarriage. And before pregnancy even happens, perhaps as many as HALF of all fertilised ova will fail to implant, and will simply be discarded with regular cyclic bleeding. Thats a lot more than artificial abortions will ever end. Maybe you should check on your "miniscule few" facts before making such claims.

Pro-life with no exceptions? So, if a woman has an ectopic pregnancy, rather than letting her get an abortion, you'd prefer to see both the woman AND the foetus die?

 

[sk8Joyful]

I voted pro-Life, no exceptions. Bottom line, abortion is murder. It is the deliberate taking of a human life.
The idea that a fetus isn't human, when it was conceived by two humans, and receives its sustenance from the human mother, does not leave room for any rational argument that it is not a human life, and not protected under the laws of our government, or any other, and under the Law of God.

Arguing for abortion on the grounds of "convenience" or "potential productivity to society" (read birth defects or Down's Syndrome), is really an argument from selfishness. As someone else pointed out, it is a manifestation of the original rebellion.

ditto

 

[max1120]

Pro-Choice and proud to say that I do not feel any confict with my faith on this issue. Keeping something legal is quite different from endorsing it and saying it is always the right decision. Abortion should be "Safe, legal, and rare". We can achive this by better funding family planning organizations and the services they provide sucha s birth control and sex education. If you really care about abortions, lets reduce the need for abortions by reducing unwanted pregnacy by promoting sex education in the schools and making contraceptives more available and effective.

 

[sk8Joyful]

I don't think education must come before outlawing it. Murder is already a punishable offense. So is theft. We don't say "well he hadn't been taught that yet, so the law doesn't apply to him". It simply is what it is. And it is also vital to remember that these laws are in place not just for the purpose of punishment, but for the purpose of the protection of human beings and to deter crime from happening. Don't want to go to jail? Don't kill. Even if you don't know why murder is wrong, at least you know you don't want to go to jail.

However, education is important. And I agree it needs to be done better in our society. Too many so-called women's libbers are out there denying the human life that the unborn baby is and claiming that is is a woman's rights issue. Additionally, we as a society need to be providing other viable options, financial support, education, safe adoptions, etc. etc. so that women have other choices and don't feel so trapped and alone. Unwed mothers need to be cared for, not pushed out of society and shunned. Abortion hurts both the baby and the mother. Both need to be cared for and protected.

ditto

 

[sk8Joyful]

Parallels between Abortion & Slavery

Slavery in centuries past and abortions in this century were defended and promoted by the same arguments. Consider the case in the USA: In 1857, in the Dred Scott case, the US Supreme Court decided, by a 7 to 2 majority, that according to the US Constitution, black people were not legal persons. They were the property of the owner. He could buy, or sell, or even kill them. Abolitionists had objected. The ruling was outrageous, they said. It was immoral and discriminated against an entire class of living persons solely on the basis of skin colour. But those who supported slavery argued that if those who had a moral objection to slavery, didn't have to own slaves. No one was forcing them to own slaves. But they also said: "Don't force your morality on the slave owner. He has the right to choose to own slaves if he wishes."

In a very similar decision just over one hundred years later, in 1973, in the Roe vs Wade Decision, the US Supreme Court decided that according to the US Constitution, by the same 7 to 2 majority, that unborn people were not legal persons. They had no civil rights, no human rights and were therefore, legally the property of the owner (the mother). She had the absolute legal right to keep or destroy her unborn baby. Pro-life people objected. The ruling was outrageous, they said. It was immoral and discriminated against an entire class of living people solely on the basis of age (too young) and place of residence (the womb). But those who support abortion argue that those who have a moral objection to abortion, don't have to have abortions. The pro-abortionists say: "No one is fordcing you to have an abortion. But don't force your morality on the mother. She has a right to choose to kill her developing baby if she wishes."

Abraham Lincoln in the 19th century said: "No one has the right to do what is wrong." 6

This country has just ended discrimination based on race. Are we now going to start discrimination on the basis of age? Saying: "I'm older than you, I'm bigger than you, I have a voice - therefore I can kill you."
PROLIFE: 10 Arguments Against Abortion

its not so much a matter of "equal rights", it's a matter of the right to life, the most fundamental right, a right by which all rights exist.
For if a mother can kill her own baby, where does that leave the rest of us?

ditto

 

[max1120]

ditto

I think the pricipal problem would be fairly drafting such legislation and enforcement. For me to support any legislation aimed at "outlawing" abortion several things would have the done first:

1. Passage of legislation to require all insurace companies to cover contraceptive devices including birth control pills. This would have to include all employers plans.

2. Elimination of any "conscieious" clause for physicans or pharmacist and require that they provide women with safe effective contraceptives without harrasment. This would trump the laws in some states which have been used by some physicans and pharmacist to avoid dispensing birth control pills and other contraceptives.

3. Require that the all emercency rooms in this country offer the morning affer pill to rape victims. To require such treatment be considered "emergency" treatment and not subject to the vicitims ability to pay the same as if they had been shot or in a traffic accident.

4. Require that states and local school authorities provide comprahinsive sex education to students in there schools which meets federal guidlines drawn up by the United States Department of Education. At a minimum this would include an open and frank discussion on an age appropriate level of sex and sexuality in a non-judgemental and informative atmosphere where students are encouraged to ask questions and state their opinions openly. The insturctor would present FACTS regarding various birth control methods such as the birth control pill and condoms. Correct use of latex condom would be presented to students and facts regarding STD's and discussion of disease prevention treatment would be required. This would have to be a part of the required curriculum offered in all schools across the country.

5. Increased funding for research and development of even more effective means of contraception.

6. Increased funding for child care for pregnant mothers who are poor. Also incresed funding for adoption services.

7. More open and available condom distrabution.

IF all of the above were adoped and passed into law. I would consider legislation outlawing the termination of a pregnancy after the 30th day.

But only with the following EXCEPTIONS:

1. Life of the mother (as defined by the attending physican)

2. Health of the mother, including her mental health (as defined by the attending physican)

3. Rape

4. Incest

5. Deformity of the fetus (such as mongoloid or Down Syndrome)

Without those exceptions I feel any legislation to severe and would not be fair to women and society at large.

Further I would only support such legislation if provided a penalty for the physican who performed it and did not impose one upon the woman who had the abortion.

 

[max1120]

ditto

Actually there were a number of "Christian" ministers who supported slavery. In fact even in the north there was not exactly an huge out cry from the pulpit to stop slavery. Slavery was sanctioned by the Roman Catholic church until Pope Greggory XVI in a Papal Bull in the year 1839. Before that the Roman Catholic Church did not condem slavery.

 

[Trashionista]

It amazes me that some pro-lifers on here will accuse pro-choice Christians of being hypocritical baby killers, but in the next breath, will compare abortion to the Holocaust or the struggle for Black civil rights and slavery.

We may be heartless, eugenics-enthusiast murderers (which is completely untrue, but for the sake of the argument), but some of you are misappropriating an experience that is not yours and is unrelated to abortion. Insensitive much?

 

[max1120]

It amazes me that some pro-lifers on here will accuse pro-choice Christians of being hypocritical baby killers, but in the next breath, will compare abortion to the Holocaust or the struggle for Black civil rights and slavery.

We may be heartless, eugenics-enthusiast murderers (which is completely untrue, but for the sake of the argument), but some of you are misappropriating an experience that is not yours and is unrelated to abortion. Insensitive much?

Very true, I could not agree more!!! You have said it perfectly

 

[sk8Joyful]

I think

Curiously, was your thinking based on -
1. personal horrendous experiences, imposed upon by 'aborting physicans' ?? - if not, it's only empty talk, sorry to say.
&
2. helping other women, Birth... quickly & easily Mind & body healthy children? - if not, it's only empty talk, sorry to say.

3.
Require that the all emercency rooms in this country offer the morning affer pill to rape victims.
To require such treatment be considered "emergency" treatment, and not subject to the vicitims ability to pay the same as if they had been shot or in a traffic accident.

So, you would favor handing a selfish & convenient "death-sentence" to an Innocent baby?? -

4.
Require that states and local school authorities provide comprahinsive sex education to students in there schools.
Correct use of latex condom would be presented to students and facts regarding STD's and discussion of disease prevention treatment would be required. This would have to be a part of the required curriculum offered in all schools across the country.

That 'sex-education' responsability belongs (not to liberals, with their socialist & Marxist/communist agendas), but to
EVERY PARENT of said child, & students.

5. Increased funding for
6. Increased funding for
7. Also incresed funding for

You're welcome to move to Russia, China, Cuba, or any other such FORCED-communist regimes,
where people pay like 70-90+% of their income in taxes. - But here in the USA, keep your hands outa our pockets, you democratic thieves!!!

1.
Life of the mother (as defined by the attending physican)
2.
Health of the mother, including her mental health (as defined by the attending physican)

oh really? - The real truth is that in the USA, the #1 Cause of death, obvious in this thread, is Medical-incompetence, least of all as 'Fortune-tellers'. The fact of the matter is, more often than not, doctors know SQUAT!

Those "attending physicans" claimed that only I could live...; bombarding me for 10-days "IT is gonna spontaneously-abort, it's gonna be born dead, it's gonna be born so horribly-deformed, and be forced to exist on permanent-life support equipment, at the expense of society, ALL because of your selfishness, in not aborting this bag of cells now. Think about that!"

You know what I said: "This child WANTS to live, as much as me; and by GOD's grace, she will be born well-formed, and functionally Healthy; and she will continue developing & growing, and she will become a successfully-contributing societal-member. - Think about this, you shameful criminals!"

And here the resulting Outcome: True to GOD's word, plus my own, this precious Beloved child was birthed (danced into this world by me at 37-weeks), well-formed, and functionally Healthy. - AND homeschooled, this child continued developing & growing, and she graduated college with honors, while she was 17 and now as a mom herself, she is doing a good job with the next generation...

5.
Deformity of the fetus (such as mongoloid or Down Syndrome)

oh really? - I personally know over a dozen such precious 'Down Syndrome' Individuals, and have taught more; and others even won Figureskating-medals. - (How well can you personally iceskate today???) - As well, these people hold productive jobs, where they pay their own way, bills, & pleasures. - What do you know?

Without those exceptions - I feel any legislation to severe and would not be fair to women and society at large.

Again, your "feel & think" has nothing positive nor Constructive to contribute.
Especially to the reality, of such of us Teaching people daily what is their individual-Potentials,
Possibilities, nor Empower them to make their finest dreams come true... PRAISE God!

 

[lux et lex]

Okay "Pro Life" folks, what do you think about the Clergy Consultation Service, a pre-Roe network of ministers and rabbis that helped women across the nation get safe low-cost abortions? What started out as 21 ministers and rabbis grew to over 1,400 clergy persons all over the nation helping women. RCRC - Clergy for Choice

 

[General Mung Beans]

Pro-life with the only exception being the life of the mother (not for rape or health).

 

[General Mung Beans]

Okay "Pro Life" folks, what do you think about the Clergy Consultation Service, a pre-Roe network of ministers and rabbis that helped women across the nation get safe low-cost abortions? What started out as 21 ministers and rabbis grew to over 1,400 clergy persons all over the nation helping women. RCRC - Clergy for Choice

Clergymen are not God and they can be in error. Plus most of these clergymen are from relatively liberal or mainline denominations whose official policies are already pro-abortion.

 

[lux et lex]

Curiously, was your thinking based on -
1. personal horrendous experiences, imposed upon by 'aborting physicans' ?? - if not, it's only empty talk, sorry to say.
&
2. helping other women, Birth... quickly & easily Mind & body healthy children? - if not, it's only empty talk, sorry to say.



So, you would favor handing a selfish & convenient "death-sentence" to an Innocent baby?? -



That 'sex-education' responsability belongs (not to liberals, with their socialist & Marxist/communist agendas), but to
EVERY PARENT of said child, & students.



You're welcome to move to Russia, China, Cuba, or any other such FORCED-communist regimes,
where people pay like 70-90+% of their income in taxes. - But here in the USA, keep your hands outa our pockets, you democratic thieves!!!


oh really? - The real truth is that in the USA, the #1 Cause of death, obvious in this thread, is Medical-incompetence, least of all as 'Fortune-tellers'. The fact of the matter is, more often than not, doctors know SQUAT!

Those "attending physicans" claimed that only I could live...; bombarding me for 10-days "IT is gonna spontaneously-abort, it's gonna be born dead, it's gonna be born so horribly-deformed, and be forced to exist on permanent-life support equipment, at the expense of society, ALL because of your selfishness, in not aborting this bag of cells now. Think about that!"

You know what I said: "This child WANTS to live, as much as me; and by GOD's grace, she will be born well-formed, and functionally Healthy; and she will continue developing & growing, and she will become a successfully-contributing societal-member. - Think about this, you shameful criminals!"

And here the resulting Outcome: True to GOD's word, plus my own, this precious Beloved child was birthed (danced into this world by me at 37-weeks), well-formed, and functionally Healthy. - AND homeschooled, this child continued developing & growing, and she graduated college with honors, while she was 17 and now as a mom herself, she is doing a good job with the next generation...


oh really? - I personally know over a dozen such precious 'Down Syndrome' Individuals, and have taught more; and others even won Figureskating-medals. - (How well can you personally iceskate today???) - As well, these people hold productive jobs, where they pay their own way, bills, & pleasures. - What do you know?



Again, your "feel & think" has nothing positive nor Constructive to contribute.
Especially to the reality, of such of us Teaching people daily what is their individual-Potentials,
Possibilities, nor Empower them to make their finest dreams come true... PRAISE God!

There are so many things wrong with this I barely know where to start. First of all, MAP does not kill anything. It prevents implantation. Merely a safety measure. Second, okay I get that you are not a friend of the medical community, but some of us are. I get that you are also not a friend of the educational system, but a GREAT MAJORITY of us have passed through it. Where I agree that it should be the parents teaching their children about reproduction and preventative measures, that doesn't happen in the real world where often times parents let the public school system babysit their children K-12. By not giving them this information, you perpetuate the cycle of teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases. Something to think about.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Pro-life
with the only exception being the life of the mother (not for rape or health).

Does that mean you also have no experiences, such as I shared here, above:

Originally Posted by max1120

1.
Life of the mother (as defined by the attending physican)
2.
Health of the mother, including her mental health (as defined by the attending physican)
​

oh really? - The real truth is that in the USA, the #1 Cause of death, obvious in this thread, is medical-INcompetence, least of all as 'Fortune-tellers'. The fact of the matter is, more often than not, doctors know SQUAT!

Those "attending physicans" claimed that only I could live...; bombarding me for 10-days "IT is gonna spontaneously-abort, it's gonna be born dead, it's gonna be born so horribly-deformed, and be forced to exist on permanent-life support equipment, at the expense of society, ALL because of your selfishness, in not aborting this bag of cells now. Think about that!"

You know what I said: "This child WANTS to live, as much as me; and by GOD's grace, she

will be born well-formed, and functionally Healthy; and she will continue developing & growing, and she will become a successfully-contributing

societal-member. - Think about this, you shameful

criminals!"

And here the resulting Outcome: True to GOD's word, plus my own, this precious

Beloved child was birthed (danced

into this world by me at 37-weeks), well-formed, and functionally Healthy. - AND homeschooled, this child continued developing & growing, and she graduated college with honors, while she was 17

and now as a mom herself, she is doing a good job with the next generation...

 

[sk8Joyful]

Okay "Pro Life" folks,
what do you think about the Clergy Consultation Service,
a pre-Roe network of ministers and rabbis that helped women across the nation get safe low-cost abortions? What started out as 21 ministers and rabbis grew to over 1,400 clergy persons all over the nation helping women. RCRC - Clergy for Choice

First, GOD as Christ, was 'non denominational' for a reason; which stance has served many well too.

2nd. Clergymen are not God (tho both they & doctors like
to think they are); but their errors prove them wrong, with devastating! consequences.

3rd. When mainstream denominations,
adopt official 'pro-abortion' policies, of course you can't expect anything healthy , let alone viable from them.

 

[Julina]

PROLIFE: 10 Arguments Against Abortion
there are a few things wrong with this, namely:
2. backstreet abortions increase when abortion is illegal
5. abortion does not aggravate child abuse. if anything, it lowers it.