LDS Priesthoods Not Found In The Writings Of The Early Church Fathers

garee

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You are probably correct. Catholics accept as authoritative both the Bible and something they refer to as "Sacred Tradition", which would include oral teachings of the Apostles passed on, but not necessarily written down.

Thanks for the reply.

I would offer in that way "Sacred Traditions" the oral traditions of men they would not be included as another true authority of God. They do not make up the word of God. No man could serve two teaching masters, of men and the other of eternal God not seen.

The commandment is to rightly divide the word of God seeking His approval . (not that of the fathers kings or princes. To divide another written authority the oral traditions written down (CCC) it takes a different approval source.

It is impossible to serve two teaching masters .(1) Sola scriptura all things written in the law and prophets (God not seen) and (2)the laws of a hierarchy of men . Fathers, kings and princes .

They like in the example below that do serve a law of men, oral tradition (we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, ) in doing so see no evil in attempting to make men a divine source of power. through those oral tradition they introduce a whole different order (Queen in heaven)

Jeremiah 44:16-19 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
 
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natitude

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I mean, really, you need only look how 'Apostle' was never established as an office in any historical Church (Catholic, Orthodox, high-church Protestants like Anglicans, etc.) to see that your view is not supported by what actually goes on in reality.

This statement is ludicrous on it's and directly contradicts the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).

CCC 860 In the office of the apostles there is one aspect that cannot be transmitted: to be the chosen witnesses of the Lord's Resurrection and so the foundation stones of the Church. But their office also has a permanent aspect. Christ promised to remain with them always. The divine mission entrusted by Jesus to them "will continue to the end of time, since the Gospel they handed on is the lasting source of all life for the Church. Therefore, . . . the apostles took care to appoint successors.

What we have here is game, set, and match!
 
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dzheremi

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This statement is ludicrous on it's and directly contradicts the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).

CCC 860 In the office of the apostles there is one aspect that cannot be transmitted: to be the chosen witnesses of the Lord's Resurrection and so the foundation stones of the Church. But their office also has a permanent aspect. Christ promised to remain with them always. The divine mission entrusted by Jesus to them "will continue to the end of time, since the Gospel they handed on is the lasting source of all life for the Church. Therefore, . . . the apostles took care to appoint successors.

What we have here is game, set, and match!

Hahahaha. You wish. :rolleyes:

Everyone responding to this thread who was actually Roman Catholic for years and has read and previously owned a copy of the Catechism, raise your hand!

*raises hand*

Anyone else? Any Mormon posters, maybe?

Also, way to cite something that totally contradicts the point you're trying to make when you actually read it in context, where the very next paragraph explains what it is talking about. Let's read it together, shall we? Here, I'll put them in sequence as they are in the Catechism, with the headings as they appear at the Vatican's website:

860 In the office of the apostles there is one aspect that cannot be transmitted: to be the chosen witnesses of the Lord's Resurrection and so the foundation stones of the Church. But their office also has a permanent aspect. Christ promised to remain with them always. The divine mission entrusted by Jesus to them "will continue to the end of time, since the Gospel they handed on is the lasting source of all life for the Church. Therefore, . . . the apostles took care to appoint successors."

The bishops - successors of the apostles

861 "In order that the mission entrusted to them might be continued after their death, [the apostles] consigned, by will and testament, as it were, to their immediate collaborators the duty of completing and consolidating the work they had begun, urging them to tend to the whole flock, in which the Holy Spirit had appointed them to shepherd the Church of God. They accordingly designated such men and then made the ruling that likewise on their death other proven men should take over their ministry."

862 "Just as the office which the Lord confided to Peter alone, as first of the apostles, destined to be transmitted to his successors, is a permanent one, so also endures the office, which the apostles received, of shepherding the Church, a charge destined to be exercised without interruption by the sacred order of bishops." Hence the Church teaches that "the bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ."

The apostolate

863 The whole Church is apostolic, in that she remains, through the successors of St. Peter and the other apostles, in communion of faith and life with her origin: and in that she is "sent out" into the whole world. All members of the Church share in this mission, though in various ways. "The Christian vocation is, of its nature, a vocation to the apostolate as well." Indeed, we call an apostolate "every activity of the Mystical Body" that aims "to spread the Kingdom of Christ over all the earth."

864 "Christ, sent by the Father, is the source of the Church's whole apostolate"; thus the fruitfulness of apostolate for ordained ministers as well as for lay people clearly depends on their vital union with Christ. In keeping with their vocations, the demands of the times and the various gifts of the Holy Spirit, the apostolate assumes the most varied forms. But charity, drawn from the Eucharist above all, is always "as it were, the soul of the whole apostolate."

I included the last two paragraphs about the apostolate because we had talked about that earlier, and that puts it better than I could in paragraph 863.

Anyway, the point is that it literally says that it is the bishops who are the successors to the apostles. That's why the RCC has bishops and not 'apostles' as the ecclesiastical highest rank in their Church. (Outside of the Roman Pope, since he is above the bishops in their conception of the Church, following some of the declarations made in Vatican I.)

So it's still the case that "Apostle" is not an office in the Christian Church, and never has been. The successors to the apostles are the bishops. No one is elected or raised to some nonexistent 'Office of Apostle'. Even Rome, which obviously uses that kind of language, still doesn't have that as an actual office (they've got a pope, bishops, cardinals, priests, deacons, etc., but no 'head apostles' or whatever; again, they already have bishops who are the successors of the apostles, so such a thing would be at best redundant). But nice try with your 'game, set, and match'. Hahahahahaha. Thanks for that. I needed the laugh. :D
 
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garee

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Hahahaha. You wish. :rolleyes:

Everyone responding to this thread who was actually Roman Catholic for years and has read and previously owned a copy of the Catechism, raise your hand!

*raises hand*

Anyone else? Any Mormon posters, maybe?

Also, way to cite something that totally contradicts the point you're trying to make when you actually read it in context, where the very next paragraph explains what it is talking about. Let's read it together, shall we? Here, I'll put them in sequence as they are in the Catechism, with the headings as they appear at the Vatican's website:

860 In the office of the apostles there is one aspect that cannot be transmitted: to be the chosen witnesses of the Lord's Resurrection and so the foundation stones of the Church. But their office also has a permanent aspect. Christ promised to remain with them always. The divine mission entrusted by Jesus to them "will continue to the end of time, since the Gospel they handed on is the lasting source of all life for the Church. Therefore, . . . the apostles took care to appoint successors."

The bishops - successors of the apostles

861 "In order that the mission entrusted to them might be continued after their death, [the apostles] consigned, by will and testament, as it were, to their immediate collaborators the duty of completing and consolidating the work they had begun, urging them to tend to the whole flock, in which the Holy Spirit had appointed them to shepherd the Church of God. They accordingly designated such men and then made the ruling that likewise on their death other proven men should take over their ministry."

862 "Just as the office which the Lord confided to Peter alone, as first of the apostles, destined to be transmitted to his successors, is a permanent one, so also endures the office, which the apostles received, of shepherding the Church, a charge destined to be exercised without interruption by the sacred order of bishops." Hence the Church teaches that "the bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ."

The apostolate

863 The whole Church is apostolic, in that she remains, through the successors of St. Peter and the other apostles, in communion of faith and life with her origin: and in that she is "sent out" into the whole world. All members of the Church share in this mission, though in various ways. "The Christian vocation is, of its nature, a vocation to the apostolate as well." Indeed, we call an apostolate "every activity of the Mystical Body" that aims "to spread the Kingdom of Christ over all the earth."

864 "Christ, sent by the Father, is the source of the Church's whole apostolate"; thus the fruitfulness of apostolate for ordained ministers as well as for lay people clearly depends on their vital union with Christ. In keeping with their vocations, the demands of the times and the various gifts of the Holy Spirit, the apostolate assumes the most varied forms. But charity, drawn from the Eucharist above all, is always "as it were, the soul of the whole apostolate."

I included the last two paragraphs about the apostolate because we had talked about that earlier, and that puts it better than I could in paragraph 863.

Anyway, the point is that it literally says that it is the bishops who are the successors to the apostles. That's why the RCC has bishops and not 'apostles' as the ecclesiastical highest rank in their Church. (Outside of the Roman Pope, since he is above the bishops in their conception of the Church, following some of the declarations made in Vatican I.)

So it's still the case that "Apostle" is not an office in the Christian Church, and never has been. The successors to the apostles are the bishops. No one is elected or raised to some nonexistent 'Office of Apostle'. Even Rome, which obviously uses that kind of language, still doesn't have that as an actual office (they've got a pope, bishops, cardinals, priests, deacons, etc., but no 'head apostles' or whatever; again, they already have bishops who are the successors of the apostles, so such a thing would be at best redundant). But nice try with your 'game, set, and match'. Hahahahahaha. Thanks for that. I needed the laugh. :D

In the office of the apostles (sent ones with no other meaning added) they are given the understanding that they are nothing, revealing to us God who is not a man is not served by the corrupted hands of a dying creation. Apostles those sent with the gospel the word of God. they are not sent with the oral traditions of men. Those sent by the desire of the word. They having the privilege's can plant the incorruptible seed of the gospel by which all men are born again from above and water it with the doctrines of God But Christ the one teaching master must apply it to their hearts making them soft . Salvation is a complete work of God. If he began the good work he will finish it as our living confidence.

1 Corinthians 3:5-7 King James Version (KJV) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

The reward of the apostles eternal life. . forgiveness of sin .

To affirm that men do not venerate them called apostles above all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura0 They use them selves as a example of what not to do. . puff up men seen above it the faith of Christ that works in his children as it is written . After all why would an apostle say he has not received the work of Christ working with him in order to do the good pleasure of God. Making the abomination of desolation desolate (mankind kings, fathers, queens princes a hierarchy ) standing in the place of unseen God.

1 Corinthians 4:6-7 King James Version (KJV) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure (parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Can we change the meaning of any word?
 
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natitude

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I appreciate you sharing your opinion.

Seeing as God has no shape or form, and such is abundantly clear in how Scripture speaks of God as invisible, unseeable, etc;...

I believe that a better interpretation of "invisible" would be "unseen". When the Bible refers to "the invisible God", a better rendering would be "the God not seen". For a concise reason as to why this translation is preferred see this blog post.


...then the only meaningful interpretation is one which understands that Christ being "in the form of God" does not mean that Jesus has a divine physical appearance (since that is a nonsense concept) but that Jesus is God. Jesus, being God, has always existed as God; in the Incarnation He becomes human, and takes on the "form" of a slave.

This paragraph is to me a problem with Trinitarian belief. The text says one thing, but since the text doesn't fit the Trinitarian notion, the face value meaning needs to be explained away as you've done by noting "the only meaningful interpretation".

Final question, since Christ has a resurrected body (Philippians 3:21), would we conclude from that verse that Jesus has a divine physical appearance? Thanks in advance.
 
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natitude

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I don't know who Francis Sullivan is or why I should take him as the authority on this subject; especially when we have the primary ancient historical sources of Christian antiquity which clearly say otherwise.

-CryptoLutheran

Please share those sources. Thanks.
 
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dzheremi

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This paragraph is to me a problem with Trinitarian belief. The text says one thing, but since the text doesn't fit the Trinitarian notion, the face value meaning needs to be explained away as you've done by noting "the only meaningful interpretation".

Final question, since Christ has a resurrected body (Philippians 3:21), would we conclude from that verse that Jesus has a divine physical appearance? Thanks in advance.

Divinity is not a matter of physical appearance either way, so that's a nonsense question.

And it's no wonder that Mormons have such problems with orthodox Trinitarian belief (that is to say, with Christianity itself) -- your religion is too carnal to give you the possibility of thinking of anything in terms beyond or other than the carnal. It is materialist and (seemingly) only materialist. I don't even mean that as an insult, but rather as a conclusion arrived at following the hundreds (probably thousands) of hours I've wasted over the last 4 years or so sincerely trying to get Mormons to understand the historical usage of basic Christian vocabulary like ousia/substantia. It never stuck with them (Peter1000, He Is The Way, Jane_Doe who doesn't even post here anymore, etc.), as they always returned with such nonsense questions as how a nature can be nailed to the cross (it can't), or if my explanations are contradicted by the fact that Jesus had a body (nope), or any number of other frankly insane things that may make sense relative to Mormonism's theology and cosmology, but really just highlight how thoroughly anti-Christian this religion is.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I appreciate you sharing your opinion.



I believe that a better interpretation of "invisible" would be "unseen". When the Bible refers to "the invisible God", a better rendering would be "the God not seen". For a concise reason as to why this translation is preferred see this blog post.

Which means the same thing.

This paragraph is to me a problem with Trinitarian belief. The text says one thing, but since the text doesn't fit the Trinitarian notion, the face value meaning needs to be explained away as you've done by noting "the only meaningful interpretation".

Quite the opposite in fact. It's one of the most important and strongest Christological texts for Trinitarians.

Final question, since Christ has a resurrected body (Philippians 3:21), would we conclude from that verse that Jesus has a divine physical appearance? Thanks in advance.

No. Because the Lord's resurrected body is a resurrected human body. There's no such thing as a "divine physical appearance".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Please share those sources. Thanks.

St. Clement of Rome, to the Corinthians (c. 95 AD):

"The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'" - 1 Clement ch. 42

"Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour." - ibid. ch. 44

St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies (c. 180 AD):

"It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about." - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III, 3:1

"But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" ibid. Book III, 3:4

I can keep going if you like, there's no shortage of evidence here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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He is the way

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Divinity is not a matter of physical appearance either way, so that's a nonsense question.

And it's no wonder that Mormons have such problems with orthodox Trinitarian belief (that is to say, with Christianity itself) -- your religion is too carnal to give you the possibility of thinking of anything in terms beyond or other than the carnal. It is materialist and (seemingly) only materialist. I don't even mean that as an insult, but rather as a conclusion arrived at following the hundreds (probably thousands) of hours I've wasted over the last 4 years or so sincerely trying to get Mormons to understand the historical usage of basic Christian vocabulary like ousia/substantia. It never stuck with them (Peter1000, He Is The Way, Jane_Doe who doesn't even post here anymore, etc.), as they always returned with such nonsense questions as how a nature can be nailed to the cross (it can't), or if my explanations are contradicted by the fact that Jesus had a body (nope), or any number of other frankly insane things that may make sense relative to Mormonism's theology and cosmology, but really just highlight how thoroughly anti-Christian this religion is.
You said: " or if my explanations are contradicted by the fact that Jesus had a body"

Jesus still has a body. He has a tangible resurrected spiritual body of flesh and bone as are all resurrected bodies.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You said: " or if my explanations are contradicted by the fact that Jesus had a body"

Jesus still has a body. He has a tangible resurrected spiritual body of flesh and bone as are all resurrected bodies.

That Christ has been risen bodily from the grave, and is still human with a human body of flesh and bone isn't something that is being questioned. Of course that's true, that's basic Christian orthodoxy.

You should re-read dzheremi's post, his point is that Christ's physical human body of flesh and bone doesn't contradict the non-physicality of the Divine Essence. The invisible, incorporeal, fully Divine Logos became human, and thus in becoming human had a human body. A body he received from His virgin mother, Mary, as flesh of her flesh, bone of her bone, by His conception in her womb. That body was nailed to the cross, where Christ suffered, bled, and died; and it was laid in a tomb, and which He then was raised from, alive in His now glorious flesh by the resurrection. It was this same body which He invited St. Thomas to touch and feel the wounds, the same body He had as He ascended into glorious glories, and with which He reigns at the right hand of the Father filling all things.

We confess He who is God, become human; and in the unity of Deity and humanity together in the one Person. So that all that is properly human is His, because He is really human. We do not confess a divine man, but the God-Man.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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He is the way

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That Christ has been risen bodily from the grave, and is still human with a human body of flesh and bone isn't something that is being questioned. Of course that's true, that's basic Christian orthodoxy.

You should re-read dzheremi's post, his point is that Christ's physical human body of flesh and bone doesn't contradict the non-physicality of the Divine Essence. The invisible, incorporeal, fully Divine Logos became human, and thus in becoming human had a human body. A body he received from His virgin mother, Mary, as flesh of her flesh, bone of her bone, by His conception in her womb. That body was nailed to the cross, where Christ suffered, bled, and died; and it was laid in a tomb, and which He then was raised from, alive in His now glorious flesh by the resurrection. It was this same body which He invited St. Thomas to touch and feel the wounds, the same body He had as He ascended into glorious glories, and with which He reigns at the right hand of the Father filling all things.

We confess He who is God, become human; and in the unity of Deity and humanity together in the one Person. So that all that is properly human is His, because He is really human. We do not confess a divine man, but the God-Man.

-CryptoLutheran
Resurrected bodies are not human:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:35 - 47)

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Jesus said He is one with the Father in unity, glory and perfection:

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:13)

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Resurrected bodies are not human:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:35 - 47)

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Jesus said He is one with the Father in unity, glory and perfection:

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:13)

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

As a rule, if you are going to quote Scripture to argue a position, that position should probably be present in the text.

Where in any of the passages you cite here does it suggest that resurrected bodies aren't human bodies? Because none of those passages even come close to hinting at that, let alone say it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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He is the way

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As a rule, if you are going to quote Scripture to argue a position, that position should probably be present in the text.

Where in any of the passages you cite here does it suggest that resurrected bodies aren't human bodies? Because none of those passages even come close to hinting at that, let alone say it.

-CryptoLutheran
Our natural bodies are burred and are raised spiritual bodies in the resurrection:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Our natural bodies are burred and are raised spiritual bodies in the resurrection:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And what do you think that means? Because all I'm seeing here is what Christianity has always believed, that the body dies and is later raised up. The body is sown, and then raised; when it is sown it is "soulish" and when it is raised it is "spiritual". It's the same body.

This flesh and bone which I'm using right now to type this out on my computer with, is the same flesh and bone that will be resurrected and spend eternity with God in the Age to Come. And I will be just as human then as I am right now.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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He is the way

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And what do you think that means? Because all I'm seeing here is what Christianity has always believed, that the body dies and is later raised up. The body is sown, and then raised; when it is sown it is "soulish" and when it is raised it is "spiritual". It's the same body.

This flesh and bone which I'm using right now to type this out on my computer with, is the same flesh and bone that will be resurrected and spend eternity with God in the Age to Come. And I will be just as human then as I am right now.

-CryptoLutheran
Resurrected bodies are not the same as our mortal bodies, they are immortal, perfected, glorified, spiritual bodies. They are far superior to our mortal bodies.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Resurrected bodies are not the same as our mortal bodies, they are immortal, perfected, glorified, spiritual bodies. They are far superior to our mortal bodies.

Correct. But that isn't the point of contention.

If I point to a rundown ramshackle of a house made of wood and say, "This is a wooden house" and then I point to a mansion also made of wood and say "This is a wooden house", the fact that there is a very clear and obvious difference in "glory" between the two doesn't change the fact that they are both wooden houses.

If I plant an acorn and say "This is an oak" that is a true statement. Once the acorn sprouts and grows into a majestic oak tree, I can still say "This is an oak". The fact of that the tree is of a far greater "glory" than the seed doesn't change the fact that it is still an oak.

Such is what the Apostle teaches in 1 Corinthians 15 concerning the resurrection of the body. It is sown soulish, it is raised spiritual; it is sown mortal, it is raised in immortality; it is sown in corruption, it is raised incorruptible; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in honor.

An acorn doesn't grow into an orangutan.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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He is the way

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Correct. But that isn't the point of contention.

If I point to a rundown ramshackle of a house made of wood and say, "This is a wooden house" and then I point to a mansion also made of wood and say "This is a wooden house", the fact that there is a very clear and obvious difference in "glory" between the two doesn't change the fact that they are both wooden houses.

If I plant an acorn and say "This is an oak" that is a true statement. Once the acorn sprouts and grows into a majestic oak tree, I can still say "This is an oak". The fact of that the tree is of a far greater "glory" than the seed doesn't change the fact that it is still an oak.

Such is what the Apostle teaches in 1 Corinthians 15 concerning the resurrection of the body. It is sown soulish, it is raised spiritual; it is sown mortal, it is raised in immortality; it is sown in corruption, it is raised incorruptible; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in honor.

An acorn doesn't grow into an orangutan.

-CryptoLutheran
Resurrected bodies do not have blood in them:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:50)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 
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dzheremi

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Resurrected bodies do not have blood in them:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:50)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Wait a minute here...if that's your 'proof' of Mormonism's conception of the afterlife being Biblical, then why do they have flesh? It says "flesh and blood", not just blood.
 
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