Pride in Reverse

[Danayah]

I am a very proud person. It manifests as independence, self-reliance and personal power. I don't accept things from people, I try not to, because to me these things create debt which is a loss of personal power. I have an underlying belief that people do things for others so that they will be owed something for future. This is what I have observed around me, essentially this is how my mother is so this has tainted my views. There have been few exemption to this but in general I don't trust ppl like this.

Abandonment and childhood pains back up this pride, and so it is deeply rooted and shows up in subtle ways:

I am humble... Not a horn tooter (My horn tooting is my humility and lack of bright feathers). This is pride as well.

I scorn the arrogant and ppl who seek social validation... The proud. Ppl who follow the crowds. They are weak minded to me. This is pride, a sort of reverse but my own version of pride. There is a great superiority complex as well.

With that background:
What have you done in your walk to destroy the spirit of pride and ego?
Testimonies are welcomed.

Because it is in reverse what would you recommend to deal with this?

This pride has even made me reluctant to ask for forgiveness, because I don't think I deserve it (having already asked before, with repeated offense).

I will be fasting against this and other spirits within me, but any other exercises or prayers etc you suggest will be received with gratitude.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[WESTOZZIE]

You are attempting to fix the old person, which is what we all do until we come to see that the old person cannot be fixed-ever. Romans 7 tells us that Paul, as a Spirit filled believer in Jesus could not stop coveting all manner of things. The more he tried to change his behaviour the worse it got. Until he cried out in desperation- "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?!" Then the answer came-he saw it..."I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord!"
He saw that that old man, which he called "I" died on the cross....and that a new I now lives. That old I will never become better, and God will not help us to improve it. You can fast, pray, dance, worship till the cows come home, the old man(Rom 6:6)is dead and buried and an imagined I/you. You are not that one anymore. That one with all it's falling short of God, is not you. Instead you and Jesus are ONE and everything of Jesus is living AS you...Gal 2:20. You are righteous and holy and blameless, you are humble and meek and generous, you are lowly and gentle and kind, you are all that He is and He is all that you are. THis is the truth that sets us free....Christ in you-the hope of glory.

 

[Tempura]

Excellent post. I would never have guessed how far pride and ego can reach. But those slimy bastards have their tentacles everywhere. Always dragging me down, always creating obstacles from nothing, always refusing to let go of grudge and always comparing myself to others and them to me. My proud self refuses to let God be God, sometimes even when I think I'm being the most pious and giving God the glory. It's so sneaky and wants to rule as God in God's place.

It's a ridiculous situation when someone is dumb as a brick and spiritually blind as a bat, but has the ego of the smartest man along with pride and self-deceiving capabilities that go off the charts. I'm like that.

Someone once said (paraphrasing) that real humility is something that cannot even stand the sight of itself. When one sees and thinks that they're humble, humility goes out the window.

I don't think I have done anything to destroy my ego. I don't even think I can. I believe it's Christ Himself who does it. I have been desperate, and in dark places where I had to understand my own helplessness. I broke down and faced immovable obstacles in life and myself. I don't necessarily believe God put me there, but in hindsight it was definitely something He could easily work with. And He continues to do it. Whatever struggles I have that push my worry and anxiety really high (be it about earthly worries, spiritual problems or questions with doctrine, whatever) and whenever I can see the situation truthfully without deceiving myself or someone else, I've had to admit that I can't solve them. And if I can, it's not going to last. So I try my best to give everything to Christ, sometimes fully realizing that I don't even want to, but I WANT to want.

Nowadays some really old things come to my mind out of nowhere. Situations with baggage, no matter how small, often some memories involving shame, hurt and grudge. Sometimes about people I still loathe, even if I don't want to. So I give these things to God, ask Him to forgive these people, and forgive me as well, so I could let go of these burdens. Forgiveness, even against my rebellious feelings, always seems to set us free. I will not wait for the day when I can fully forgive all these people in my heart, because without God that day will never come. I cannot get there by myself. I trust God to do it and grant me a forgiving heart in time. I have noticed that the more I do this, put God first and trust with all my belief (or even unbelief as it often is) that His will is the absolute best, His love and power can and should be trusted at all times over ours, the tendency to even think the word "forgive" is more frequent now. To think of God as the source and authority of all good things, all sweetest and most relieving things is important. I'm horrible at it, but He knows how to teach us to walk in spirit and to depend on Him instead of ourselves.

Oh, and I didn't even mention the times where I have hurt others. How convenient for me that it almost slipped my mind. I've been getting those memories too, and I want to bless these people in my prayers. At first I only thought I had to ask forgiveness. But I've been led to ask blessings for them too. Too often I forget this. But I will be reminded.

Sometimes perspective helps. When I see a beautiful graceful display of love, or someone truly suffering and weeping in their helplessness, my ego hides and I'm reminded of the most important things. Pride cannot stand pure love no more than it can stand suffering.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am a very proud person. It manifests as independence, self-reliance and personal power. I don't accept things from people, I try not to, because to me these things create debt which is a loss of personal power. I have an underlying belief that people do things for others so that they will be owed something for future. This is what I have observed around me, essentially this is how my mother is so this has tainted my views. There have been few exemption to this but in general I don't trust ppl like this.

Abandonment and childhood pains back up this pride, and so it is deeply rooted and shows up in subtle ways:

I am humble... Not a horn tooter (My horn tooting is my humility and lack of bright feathers). This is pride as well.

I scorn the arrogant and ppl who seek social validation... The proud. Ppl who follow the crowds. They are weak minded to me. This is pride, a sort of reverse but my own version of pride. There is a great superiority complex as well.

With that background:
What have you done in your walk to destroy the spirit of pride and ego?
Testimonies are welcomed.

Because it is in reverse what would you recommend to deal with this?

This pride has even made me reluctant to ask for forgiveness, because I don't think I deserve it (having already asked before, with repeated offense).

I will be fasting against this and other spirits within me, but any other exercises or prayers etc you suggest will be received with gratitude.

Not that what I suggest is really possible, but I suggest you stop looking at yourself and pursue Christ. "With all your getting, get wisdom.", and Christ is where you get wisdom.

Not to criticize you any more than anyone else (including myself), but modern Christianity has taken a wrong turn somewhere, and I know it is related to the inherent rebellion of man vs God. We have a whole wrong worldview; we have a mindset problem:

There are many underlying causes, some of which you alluded to, that cause your sort of pride. One of the most easily gone unnoticed, yet consistently there in all of just about anyone's thinking is the mindset of US vs GOD. Even those of us who wish to be obedient, and even who wish to be with Him the sooner the better, still think there is some sort of division between us and him that is inherent in "the way of things", where we are, by default, in the position of dealing with God.

We assume there is something noble in thinking that we are in charge of our lives so that we can present ourselves to him as worthy, or something. Even those of us who know there is nothing inherently good in us, think in terms of some sort of hand-off, like God gives us instructions and the rest is up to us as if we could do or become of ourselves anything to commend ourselves to God. Whole doctrines are built around it, under the name of obedience or self-discipline or other things. We know the Bible says that without him we can do nothing, yet we think it Godly to do this, not realizing we are backing away from Him instead of depending on him. We even know we need him to obey, and then turn around and think it is all up to US to incorporate that into our obedience.

We only want a little of him, and that at our request, according to our decision as to when we need his help. The whole mindset is off. Yes, we have a will and we do choose, but we think we know what is going on, as if we understand what we are choosing. We are not that learned, and we don't have to intelligence to plumb those depths. WE NEED HIM.

Yes, God is a separate being from us, and yes, there is a huge difference between us and him, and yes, we must obey. But we can't do it separate from him. Merely doing what we think is right, is not of itself obedience. In the Creator - creature relationship, the creature is nothing compared to infinity.

This mindset is as hard to root out as sin is. I don't mean we need to feel guilty about it so much as we need to admit it is there, and in all of our doing to depend desperately on Christ.

There is a doctrine that the command does not of itself imply the ability to obey. DO NOT FOR A MOMENT THINK THAT ACQUIESCENCE EQUALS OBEDIENCE. Obedience inherently implies the killing of self-pride, and is only done through Christ.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Excellent post. I would never have guessed how far pride and ego can reach. But those slimy bastards have their tentacles everywhere. Always dragging me down, always creating obstacles from nothing, always refusing to let go of grudge and always comparing myself to others and them to me. My proud self refuses to let God be God, sometimes even when I think I'm being the most pious and giving God the glory. It's so sneaky and wants to rule as God in God's place.

It's a ridiculous situation when someone is dumb as a brick and spiritually blind as a bat, but has the ego of the smartest man along with pride and self-deceiving capabilities that go off the charts. I'm like that.

Someone once said (paraphrasing) that real humility is something that cannot even stand the sight of itself. When one sees and thinks that they're humble, humility goes out the window.

I don't think I have done anything to destroy my ego. I don't even think I can. I believe it's Christ Himself who does it. I have been desperate, and in dark places where I had to understand my own helplessness. I broke down and faced immovable obstacles in life and myself. I don't necessarily believe God put me there, but in hindsight it was definitely something He could easily work with. And He continues to do it. Whatever struggles I have that push my worry and anxiety really high (be it about earthly worries, spiritual problems or questions with doctrine, whatever) and whenever I can see the situation truthfully without deceiving myself or someone else, I've had to admit that I can't solve them. And if I can, it's not going to last. So I try my best to give everything to Christ, sometimes fully realizing that I don't even want to, but I WANT to want.

Nowadays some really old things come to my mind out of nowhere. Situations with baggage, no matter how small, often some memories involving shame, hurt and grudge. Sometimes about people I still loathe, even if I don't want to. So I give these things to God, ask Him to forgive these people, and forgive me as well, so I could let go of these burdens. Forgiveness, even against my rebellious feelings, always seems to set us free. I will not wait for the day when I can fully forgive all these people in my heart, because without God that day will never come. I cannot get there by myself. I trust God to do it and grant me a forgiving heart in time. I have noticed that the more I do this, put God first and trust with all my belief (or even unbelief as it often is) that His will is the absolute best, His love and power can and should be trusted at all times over ours, the tendency to even think the word "forgive" is more frequent now. To think of God as the source and authority of all good things, all sweetest and most relieving things is important. I'm horrible at it, but He knows how to teach us to walk in spirit and to depend on Him instead of ourselves.

Oh, and I didn't even mention the times where I have hurt others. How convenient for me that it almost slipped my mind. I've been getting those memories too, and I want to bless these people in my prayers. At first I only thought I had to ask forgiveness. But I've been led to ask blessings for them too. Too often I forget this. But I will be reminded.

Sometimes perspective helps. When I see a beautiful graceful display of love, or someone truly suffering and weeping in their helplessness, my ego hides and I'm reminded of the most important things. Pride cannot stand pure love no more than it can stand suffering.

Amen there, brother!

Particularly, what you say in your first paragraph rings true, the older I get and the longer I study:

"I would never have guessed how far pride and ego can reach. But those slimy bastards have their tentacles everywhere. Always dragging me down, always creating obstacles from nothing, always refusing to let go of grudge and always comparing myself to others and them to me. My proud self refuses to let God be God, sometimes even when I think I'm being the most pious and giving God the glory. It's so sneaky and wants to rule as God in God's place."

It is there that we live, assuming we can somehow deal with God, and that he owes us for what we think is obedience.

 

[~Zao~]

There’s been so much good advise already given, so much that rings true of the Christian experience that we can all relate to. Because there’s a very human tendency to dwell on the hurt and pain that God has already replaced with the joy set before us we tend to look the other way. Gaze on the idols people have set up rather than turning to God if you will. You probably have experienced that yourself because your able to differentiate between the good and bad fruit since childhood. There’s no need to feed on dead fruit that doesn’t edify you in the way that you know God does. Keep your eyes on Christ and He will build faith on faith.

 

[bèlla]

What have you done in your walk to destroy the spirit of pride and ego?

There are a few things I do to keep this at bay. I avoid group think and conformity. The us vs them mentality is destructive and rarely fruitful. Even when it's established with good intentions. It always leads to pride and aggrandizement.

I don't apologize for where I am, what God has done, or where God is taking me. If it's difficult for someone to accept I leave them to God. But I won't deny the truth or reduce my light to make anyone comfortable. That's not what He expects of me.

I'm not invested in outside opinions. I can never please everyone. Someone will disagree, misunderstand, or think ill of me. That's a part of life. If I pander to others for approval I'm a slave to them not God.

I'm not afraid to be different, stand alone, or go against the grain.

It's none of my business. Judgment is God's domain and every situation has a backstory that few are privy to. I don't believe I have a right to insert my opinion into anyone's private life. I know my place and believe boundaries should be respected.

I admit my mistakes, failures, what I lack, don't know, etc. It creates a colorful kaleidoscope that adds dimension to a person. God's grace and blessings brings Him glory and reveals how far I've come. Curated stories always feel flat and empty.

I validate what's true and right. Not what the other person wants or expects of me. If I distort the truth for someone else I'll inevitably desire the same.

I pursue God's mark, not man's. His holiness and excellence are my barometers.

I'm discriminating about the company I keep, things I read, and what I let into my head. Pride doesn't arise overnight and it requires feeding. Unwholesome alignments and venues that support errant ideals are best avoided.

Recognition and celebration are key things I employ. I like seeing other people succeed and enjoy sharing encouraging words or offering assistance. This alleviates comparison and jealousy. I lean on the Parable of the Talents and I'm content with what I've received.

Happiness and joy are important. Not the fake it until you make it sort. But happiness, joy and peace that come from above. When that's evident and flowing within and without you see life through different lenses.

Stewardship. Everything under the heavens belongs to God. To become angry about someone's possessions or anything they have is futile. I'm not entitled to it. Because in truth, I'm not angry with them. I'm angry with God because He withheld it. And that's pride personified.

Surrender. This is the bedrock of my faith. Being bent in His presence keeps my mind and heart in place. When I'm beginning to teeter He nudges me back, comforts, or addresses the issue.

I believe prayer and love are the greatest defense. I pray often and love others. I'm compassionate to those who don't know the Lord and pursue a purposeful life. Having a godly mission that I'm focused on keeps me rooted in Him.

I will be fasting against this and other spirits within me, but any other exercises or prayers etc you suggest will be received with gratitude.

The most effective way to defeat pride is to know its root and your buy-in. You have to do some digging to find the source. It can be layered beneath hurt and disappointment. You're looking for the issue and the behaviors you've undertaken to compensate for the experience. For example, the person who has a breakup and eats a tub of ice cream is dealing with rejection and compensating through gluttony.

You mentioned abandonment. I'd pray against the spirit of rejection, pride, false humility, false guilt, fear and control. Another thing that crops up in situations like yours is a religious spirit. Rejection will be the last to go. It's the strongman. Seek forgiveness and forgive all who've wronged you. That opens the door for deliverance. You're being swayed against it because it allows the situation's continuance. Pride never wants to leave.

Love is your solution. Saturate your environment with the Word of God. Leave a Christian radio station on during the day and when you're home play an audio bible in the background. Especially when you sleep. Worship music is ideal on difficult days and weekends. This may sound strange but it affects the psyche quite a lot.

 

[Danayah]

You are attempting to fix the old person, which is what we all do until we come to see that the old person cannot be fixed-ever. Romans 7 tells us that Paul, as a Spirit filled believer in Jesus could not stop coveting all manner of things. The more he tried to change his behaviour the worse it got. Until he cried out in desperation- "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?!" Then the answer came-he saw it..."I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord!"
He saw that that old man, which he called "I" died on the cross....and that a new I now lives. That old I will never become better, and God will not help us to improve it. You can fast, pray, dance, worship till the cows come home, the old man(Rom 6:6)is dead and buried and an imagined I/you. You are not that one anymore. That one with all it's falling short of God, is not you. Instead you and Jesus are ONE and everything of Jesus is living AS you...Gal 2:20. You are righteous and holy and blameless, you are humble and meek and generous, you are lowly and gentle and kind, you are all that He is and He is all that you are. THis is the truth that sets us free....Christ in you-the hope of glory.

Firstly thank you for the application of scripture. I will reflect on your references.

I have heard this concept before indeed but I am not understanding. You message has done a great job of helpin me think about it though...

My confusion is this concept of salvation without effort. Without changing one's behavior. The old me died? Then why do I still feel this pride? Why is my fruits of the flesh and not of the spirit? Very confusing concept here. Please clarify if you may.

 

[Danayah]

There’s been so much good advise already given, so much that rings true of the Christian experience that we can all relate to. Because there’s a very human tendency to dwell on the hurt and pain that God has already replaced with the joy set before us we tend to look the other way. Gaze on the idols people have set up rather than turning to God if you will. You probably have experienced that yourself because your able to differentiate between the good and bad fruit since childhood. There’s no need to feed on dead fruit that doesn’t edify you in the way that you know God does. Keep your eyes on Christ and He will build faith on faith.

Very well said. Thank you very much

 

[Danayah]

There are a few things I do to keep this at bay. I avoid group think and conformity. The us vs them mentality is destructive and rarely fruitful. Even when it's established with good intentions. It always leads to pride and aggrandizement.

I don't apologize for where I am, what God has done, or where God is taking me. If it's difficult for someone to accept I leave them to God. But I won't deny the truth or reduce my light to make anyone comfortable. That's not what He expects of me.

I'm not invested in outside opinions. I can never please everyone. Someone will disagree, misunderstand, or think ill of me. That's a part of life. If I pander to others for approval I'm a slave to them not God.

I'm not afraid to be different, stand alone, or go against the grain.

It's none of my business. Judgment is God's domain and every situation has a backstory that few are privy to. I don't believe I have a right to insert my opinion into anyone's private life. I know my place and believe boundaries should be respected.

I admit my mistakes, failures, what I lack, don't know, etc. It creates a colorful kaleidoscope that adds dimension to a person. God's grace and blessings brings Him glory and reveals how far I've come. Curated stories always feel flat and empty.

I validate what's true and right. Not what the other person wants or expects of me. If I distort the truth for someone else I'll inevitably desire the same.

I pursue God's mark, not man's. His holiness and excellence are my barometers.

I'm discriminating about the company I keep, things I read, and what I let into my head. Pride doesn't arise overnight and it requires feeding. Unwholesome alignments and venues that support errant ideals are best avoided.

Recognition and celebration are key things I employ. I like seeing other people succeed and enjoy sharing encouraging words or offering assistance. This alleviates comparison and jealousy. I lean on the Parable of the Talents and I'm content with what I've received.

Happiness and joy are important. Not the fake it until you make it sort. But happiness, joy and peace that come from above. When that's evident and flowing within and without you see life through different lenses.

Stewardship. Everything under the heavens belongs to God. To become angry about someone's possessions or anything they have is futile. I'm not entitled to it. Because in truth, I'm not angry with them. I'm angry with God because He withheld it. And that's pride personified.

Surrender. This is the bedrock of my faith. Being bent in His presence keeps my mind and heart in place. When I'm beginning to teeter He nudges me back, comforts, or addresses the issue.

I believe prayer and love are the greatest defense. I pray often and love others. I'm compassionate to those who don't know the Lord and pursue a purposeful life. Having a godly mission that I'm focused on keeps me rooted in Him.



The most effective way to defeat pride is to know its root and your buy-in. You have to do some digging to find the source. It can be layered beneath hurt and disappointment. You're looking for the issue and the behaviors you've undertaken to compensate for the experience. For example, the person who has a breakup and eats a tub of ice cream is dealing with rejection and compensating through gluttony.

You mentioned abandonment. I'd pray against the spirit of rejection, pride, false humility, false guilt, fear and control. Another thing that crops up in situations like yours is a religious spirit. Rejection will be the last to go. It's the strongman. Seek forgiveness and forgive all who've wronged you. That opens the door for deliverance. You're being swayed against it because it allows the situation's continuance. Pride never wants to leave.

Love is your solution. Saturate your environment with the Word of God. Leave a Christian radio station on during the day and when you're home play an audio bible in the background. Especially when you sleep. Worship music is ideal on difficult days and weekends. This may sound strange but it affects the psyche quite a lot.

Thank you! I am reflecting on it, but maybe to the point of self absorption... Trying to be better to be considered worthy of the holy spirit... Very sad but true.

Thank you all for all the useful advice.

 

[bèlla]

Thank you! I am reflecting on it, but maybe to the point of self absorption... Trying to be better to be considered worthy of the holy spirit... Very sad but true.

Thank you all for all the useful advice.

You're welcome.

We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We were never told we needed to earn His love. Lean in and be still. Pray against the spirits I mentioned. They are the rulers and they'll put up a fight. But your freedom draws nigh. Hold on to His unchanging hand.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am a very proud person. It manifests as independence, self-reliance and personal power. I don't accept things from people, I try not to, because to me these things create debt which is a loss of personal power. I have an underlying belief that people do things for others so that they will be owed something for future. This is what I have observed around me, essentially this is how my mother is so this has tainted my views. There have been few exemption to this but in general I don't trust ppl like this.

Abandonment and childhood pains back up this pride, and so it is deeply rooted and shows up in subtle ways:

I am humble... Not a horn tooter (My horn tooting is my humility and lack of bright feathers). This is pride as well.

I scorn the arrogant and ppl who seek social validation... The proud. Ppl who follow the crowds. They are weak minded to me. This is pride, a sort of reverse but my own version of pride. There is a great superiority complex as well.

With that background:
What have you done in your walk to destroy the spirit of pride and ego?
Testimonies are welcomed.

Because it is in reverse what would you recommend to deal with this?

This pride has even made me reluctant to ask for forgiveness, because I don't think I deserve it (having already asked before, with repeated offense).

I will be fasting against this and other spirits within me, but any other exercises or prayers etc you suggest will be received with gratitude.

I really like the philosophically inclined reflection you apply to your experience with people who exude acerbic, worldly pride. Unfortunately, I'll probably have to refrain from participating in this thread and just read what you and others express here, mainly because---ironically---I tend to be more concerned about living in a culture which seems to me to equivocate humility with passivity, agreement, and a self-deprecation of one's own abilities.

 

[Danayah]

I really like the philosophically inclined reflection you apply to your experience with people who exude acerbic, worldly pride. Unfortunately, I'll probably have to refrain from participating in this thread and just read what you and others express here, mainly because---ironically---I tend to be more concerned about living in a culture which seems to me to equivocate humility with passivity, agreement, and a self-deprecation of one's own abilities.

I do not follow. Please clarify if you will.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Firstly thank you for the application of scripture. I will reflect on your references.

I have heard this concept before indeed but I am not understanding. You message has done a great job of helpin me think about it though...

My confusion is this concept of salvation without effort. Without changing one's behavior. The old me died? Then why do I still feel this pride? Why is my fruits of the flesh and not of the spirit? Very confusing concept here. Please clarify if you may.

My dad once said something that contrasted very much with what I had been taught by Christians, including my mom, when I was growing up, but it made a lot of sense: "Some people just come to know the Lord." Our minds are simple. They want to see a flowchart for salvation that they can understand. But while God likes us to understand as much as possible, he doesn't need us to understand, but to trust him instead of ourselves.

There are things that Reformed and Arminian agree on and this is one --that the Gospel is the work of God alone. The gift of Faith is of God alone and not by the effort of man. Yet both also say that the work of man, the effort of man, the involvement by man is more than just a requirement --rather it is the work of God in a person that they become fruitful and totally involved in the work of God. We take his righteousness upon ourselves, when he takes our sin. Neither view claims there is no need for changed behavior.

Your own experience may drive you to seek God --to see yourself as IN HIM, instead of doing what you believe you should, apart from him. In a sense, you are not the same you, but are living like you are. It will take some time and pain to break that old way of thinking. I have found out that although it hurts God eternally, he is patient, drinking our foolishness and sin up like water, while tenderly bringing us through what we complain and even doubt him about.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I do not follow. Please clarify if you will.

An instance would be that due to a misconstrual of Paul's admonition to the Corinthian church to exhibit love and not pride of knowledge, and for the fact that our Western culture seems to bristle at the thought that some other person might actually have some knowledge that, if true, could put a damper on one's freedom, there's a tendency to deprecate those who claim they have qualifications to assert a viewpoint. And if she dares to do so, if she dares to be 'assertive' (gasp!...and assertive Christian?), then she must be audacious, arrogant, and full of exaggerated pride.

The truth is, if someone like John the Baptist showed up in today's political climate, he'd be hauled away and, at the very least, taken to court for his prideful disturbance of the peace and for his "obvious" hate speech.

 

[Danayah]

An instance would be that due to a misconstrual of Paul's admonition to the Corinthian church to exhibit love and not pride of knowledge, and for the fact that our Western culture seems to bristle at the thought that some other person might actually have some knowledge that, if true, could put a damper on one's freedom, there's a tendency to deprecate those who claim they have qualifications to assert a viewpoint. And if she dares to do so, if she dares to be 'assertive' (gasp!...and assertive Christian?), then she must be audacious, arrogant, and full of exaggerated pride.

The truth is, if someone like John the Baptist showed up in today's political climate, he'd be hauled away and, at the very least, taken to court for his prideful disturbance of the peace and for his "obvious" hate speech.

I am actually confused as to where we are headed but will comment on the points:

I really love Zealous people, and I am one myself. Overly assertive, I guess this is apart of my perception of personal power. I do not view arrogance and assertiveness as equivalent, two different spirits.

An assertive Christian I might welcome more readily than the opposite. I really like John the immerser, and I love every line where Jesus calls out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees . Prophets with the fire! are my favourite! (I think theres more than a pinch of love for violent justice in there, which I consider wrong... not sure... Calling to mind the murder of that Israelite man who brought in a gentile woman in the camps... God was impressed by the justice. Hmmmm. Idk yet.)

Certain people of the faith believe that Jesus is not the great "Sops" we like to say he was. For a long time I found that quite refreshing and encouraging

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am actually confused as to where we are headed but will comment on the points:

That's ok. I tend to get that reaction off and on around here.

I really love Zealous people, and I am one myself. Overly assertive, I guess this is apart of my perception of personal power. I do not view arrogance and assertiveness as equivalent, two different spirits.

With this in view, it sounds like we're in general agreement here.

An assertive Christian I might welcome more readily than the opposite. I really like John the immerser, and I love every line where Jesus calls out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees . Prophets with the fire! are my favourite! (I think theres more than a pinch of love for violent justice in there, which I consider wrong... not sure... Calling to mind the murder of that Israelite man who brought in a gentile woman in the camps... God was impressed by the justice. Hmmmm. Idk yet.)

Some of the ethical issues we find in the Bible do require a second look......and often more than a second thought, don't they?

Certain people of the faith believe that Jesus is not the great "Sops" we like to say he was. For a long time I found that quite refreshing and encouraging

That's great point. Jesus was definitely no pushover.

 

[Danayah]

That's ok. I tend to get that reaction off and on around here.

With this in view, it sounds like we're in general agreement here.

Some of the ethical issues we find in the Bible do require a second look......and often more than a second thought, don't they?

That's great point. Jesus was definitely no pushover.

For some strange reason I consider finding ethical issue with the bible strange. What do we base our ethics on? Humanitarianism? This was fine by me when I was atheist but currently I don't get it.

I heard someone complaining about the slaughter of the Canaanites by the Israelites... How it was not good of God to instruct such a thing. Thou shall not commit murder!
Now I understand the parable of the talents... The idea of God's character held by the guy with one talent. I think this is why Christians are afraid of the Laws and the Prophets.

Also if you read 2nd Ezra, the debate he had with God about the second death of the unrighteous... Another question of ethics from human perspective.
Now Abraham could have done the same thing when given that test but instead he trusted in God.
Applying ethics to God is kinda strange.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

For some strange reason I consider finding ethical issue with the bible strange. What do we base our ethics on? Humanitarianism? This was fine by me when I was atheist but currently I don't get it.

I heard someone complaining about the slaughter of the Canaanites by the Israelites... How it was not good of God to instruct such a thing. Thou shall not commit murder!
Now I understand the parable of the talents... The idea of God's character held by the guy with one talent. I think this is why Christians are afraid of the Laws and the Prophets.

Also if you read 2nd Ezra, the debate he had with God about the second death of the unrighteous... Another question of ethics from human perspective.
Now Abraham could have done the same thing when given that test but instead he trusted in God.
Applying ethics to God is kinda strange.

Danayah, for someone who has come from an atheist background, you sure present a surprising turn in perspective. I have to say this because most atheists I've spoken to over the years have expressed a great grievance over what they find in the Old Testament. How did you make such a change in your thinking and come to see that "applying ethics to God is kinda strange"? It's wonderful that you've done so and it attests to your willingness to move out of the modern "crowd following" that many people can end up doing.

Going back to the subject of pride: I suppose I could be guilty of having some sense of bloated pride. But just when I try to be humble, some upstart tries to convince me that all of my college education means next to squat ... and I lose my cool, making me want to "puff up" my pride even more and turn into .... oh no!....the Pillsbury Doughboy! Now, that's 'puffed up'!!!