Prewrath?

[iamlamad]

I am just quoting verses and looking how everyone here is interpreting them
Oh, I forgot, a "great earthquake" is mentioned.
Now this fascinates me as the phrase "great earthquake" occurs in only 6 verses of the entire Bible!
3 of those in Revelation.....

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

4578. seismos sice-mos' from 4579; a commotion, i.e. (of the air) a gale, (of the ground) an earthquake:--earthquake, tempest.

NKJV)
Revelation 6:12
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[fn] there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[fn] became like blood.

Ezekiel 38:19
“For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken:
‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake<7494> in the land of Israel,

Matthew 8:24 didn't show up as "earthquake" in a concordance, but rather "tempest/storm" is used.
Luke uses the phrase "sea and waves roaring".
That phrase is used a few times in the OT, but it appears Jeremiah 31:35 includes all of it that is in Luke 21:25.
First time I have ever noticed that.Matthew 8:24
And, behold! there arose a great tempest<4578> in the sea,
insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

Luke uses the plural here:

Luke 21:11
There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places,
and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

Matthew 28:2
And behold, there was a great earthquake;
for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door,[fn] and sat on it.

Act 16:26
Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken;
and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone's chains were loosed.

Revelation 11:13
In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell.
In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed,
and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Revelation 16:18
And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake,
such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men/mankind became on the earth.
.

There will be very real earthquakes happen when the events of Revelation happen. We are waiting on the 6th seal. The rapture will take place first - then the earthquake. I am convinced this 6th seal earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. See matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened."

 

[iamlamad]

Why can't you simply add the word "event" or "events" ?

such as seal 1 events, or seal 5 events. So that you are talking about the events and not the seals.

The seals are nothing but a lock on the book . The events are what are in the book.

The scroll is written so that as each seal is opened, there will be writing visible and then the EVENTS that are written under that seal will take place. It very well could be that the scroll is rolled up, then seal 7 is rolled up around it and sealed. Then seal 6 is rolled up around seal 7 and sealed. When the first seal was opened - circa 32 AD - there was writing visible and then the events written began to take place. But John saw these things in a vision which used much symbolism. I don't think the White horse and rider are REAL. They are to represent the church sent out with the gospel. (Just my opinion.)

Make no mistake, the seal EVENTS are associated with the opening of each seal - just as if words became visible when a seal was opened. John does not TELL us there are words, but after all, books have words.
Who knows? Perhaps when we are there, we can SEE this book. By the way, all of the readers understand each seal has events to take place associated with that seal, and each trumpet and each vial. We know this. When someone mentions the first seal, we all get a picture in our mind of a white horse - not some wax or some other substance they used to seal documents.

Another HUGE reason to say "seals"....many people here have an urge to rearrange, and in their imagination think they can move events around to fit a theory. For example, "the 7th trumpet happens at the 6th seal" or some other nonsense.

When we keep in mind that from chapter 8 on is what is written INSIDE THE BOOK, and that the book cannot be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments until all seven seals have been opened - perhaps there will come a greater understanding of this book.

The truth is, seals CANNOT be moved out of their location. Their purpose is to keep the book sealed until the proper time. Once a seal is opened and those events take place, then it becomes HISTORY. That time has passed. That is why it is so silly to imagine something from chapters 9, 10, 11, 12 etc, happening "at the 6th seal."

 

[Douggg]

Dream on. You are living in an end time fantasy world.

For example, the events of the trumpet judgments WILL NOT HAPPEN until the trumpets are sounded in the real world. I agree they were sounded in a vision so we could have the book. Most of the book of Revelation was given to John is vision form. Visions are NOT reality. I can assure you, 7 angels are not at this moment holding 7 trumpets.
7 Angels are not at this moment holding 7 vials of God's wrath.

These events John saw in the vision will happen sequentially in the very order that John saw them in the vision. My point is, they have not happened yet in the real world.
No vial with an associated plague has happened. in fact, no vial CAN happen in the real world until all 7 trumpets have sounded.

In the real world, no trumpet has sounded! No angel has of yet received their trumpets.In fact, no can will receive their trumpets until the 7th seal has been opened in the real world.

The 7th seal will not be opened until the 6th seal is opened.

This is the REAL world explained.

The trumpets and the vials - were not locks on the book. The seals locked the book. The trumpets and vials did not function like the seals.

The seals have been opened already, so John and them present could see what was in the book. John saw the trumpets blown and the vials poured out. The trumpets and vials are a different issue from the seals.

If you want to maintain that in fulfillment the trumpets have not sounded yet and the vials poured out - I don't have a disagreement over that.

But to say the seals are waiting to be opened is not correct.
___________________________________________________________

When John saw what was in the book, he saw the seven years, in segments.
Each segment covered events to take place in either the full seven years or the second half of the seven years.

Chapter 6 the entire 7 years
Chapter 7 second half of the seven years
Chapter 8, 9 the trumpets, second half of the seven years
Chapter 10 the little book, the mystery of God no further delay, the second half
Chapter 11 the entire 7 years
Chapter 12 the entire 7 years, relevant to Israel
Chapter 13 the second half , relevant to the evil of the beast
Chapter 14 the second half, reward of the 144,000 and judgment on the wicked
Chapter 15 the second half, the vials
Chapter 16 the second half, the vials, conclusion of the great tribulation
Chapter 17 the second half, judgment
Chapter 18 the second half, judgment
Chapter 19 the second half, Jesus's return

 

[Douggg]

The scroll is written so that as each seal is opened, there will be writing visible and then the EVENTS that are written under that seal will take place. It very well could be that the scroll is rolled up, then seal 7 is rolled up around it and sealed. Then seal 6 is rolled up around seal 7 and sealed. When the first seal was opened - circa 32 AD - there was writing visible and then the events written began to take place. But John saw these things in a vision which used much symbolism. I don't think the White horse and rider are REAL. They are to represent the church sent out with the gospel. (Just my opinion.)

Make no mistake, the seal EVENTS are associated with the opening of each seal - just as if words became visible when a seal was opened. John does not TELL us there are words, but after all, books have words.
Who knows? Perhaps when we are there, we can SEE this book. By the way, all of the readers understand each seal has events to take place associated with that seal, and each trumpet and each vial. We know this. When someone mentions the first seal, we all get a picture in our mind of a white horse - not some wax or some other substance they used to seal documents.

Another HUGE reason to say "seals"....many people here have an urge to rearrange, and in their imagination think they can move events around to fit a theory. For example, "the 7th trumpet happens at the 6th seal" or some other nonsense.

When we keep in mind that from chapter 8 on is what is written INSIDE THE BOOK, and that the book cannot be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments until all seven seals have been opened - perhaps there will come a greater understanding of this book.

The truth is, seals CANNOT be moved out of their location. Their purpose is to keep the book sealed until the proper time. Once a seal is opened and those events take place, then it becomes HISTORY. That time has passed. That is why it is so silly to imagine something from chapters 9, 10, 11, 12 etc, happening "at the 6th seal."

The book has not been resealed. The time was at hand to know what was in the book - back in John's day.

Revelation 1:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
_________________________________________________________________

The seals were moved out of their place by Jesus, when He opened the seals. Their place was to keep the book locked.

You are confusing the seals with the contents of the book - revealed when each seal was opened.

 

[iamlamad]

The trumpets and the vials - were not locks on the book. The seals locked the book. The trumpets and vials did not function like the seals.

The seals have been opened already, so John and them present could see what was in the book. John saw the trumpets blown and the vials poured out. The trumpets and vials are a different issue from the seals.

If you want to maintain that in fulfillment the trumpets have not sounded yet and the vials poured out - I don't have a disagreement over that.

But to say the seals are waiting to be opened is not correct.
___________________________________________________________

When John saw what was in the book, he saw the seven years, in segments.
Each segment covered events to take place in either the full seven years or the second half of the seven years.

Chapter 6 the entire 7 years
Chapter 7 second half of the seven years
Chapter 8, 9 the trumpets, second half of the seven years
Chapter 10 the little book, the mystery of God no further delay, the second half
Chapter 11 the entire 7 years
Chapter 12 the entire 7 years, relevant to Israel
Chapter 13 the second half , relevant to the evil of the beast
Chapter 14 the second half, reward of the 144,000 and judgment on the wicked
Chapter 15 the second half, the vials
Chapter 16 the second half, the vials, conclusion of the great tribulation
Chapter 17 the second half, judgment
Chapter 18 the second half, judgment
Chapter 19 the second half, Jesus's return

As usual, I disagree with most of what you write.

 

[iamlamad]

The book has not been resealed. The time was at hand to know what was in the book - back in John's day.

Revelation 1:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
_________________________________________________________________

The seals were moved out of their place by Jesus, when He opened the seals. Their place was to keep the book locked.

You are confusing the seals with the contents of the book - revealed when each seal was opened.

No I am not confused. what is INSIDE the book will not come to pass until the 6th and 7th seals are opened and those events take place. Therefore in chapter 8, after the 7th seal has been opened, the book is opened, and from that point on - what we read is coming from inside the blood. What is the "event" of the 7th seal? It is the official opening of the 70th week.

I know you will not budge: you are sure you are right, and are here to teach, not to learn. It is a dangerous place to be if you really do not have the truth. Good luck! I hope your theories work out for you!

 

[Douggg]

No I am not confused. what is INSIDE the book will not come to pass until the 6th and 7th seals are opened and those events take place. Therefore in chapter 8, after the 7th seal has been opened, the book is opened, and from that point on - what we read is coming from inside the blood. What is the "event" of the 7th seal? It is the official opening of the 70th week.

I know you will not budge: you are sure you are right, and are here to teach, not to learn. It is a dangerous place to be if you really do not have the truth. Good luck! I hope your theories work out for you!

The trumpets and vials - are judgments. The seals were locks that kept the book sealed from knowing what was inside.

That's what I am teaching you. To acknowledge the difference.

And adjust your presentation, accordingly, by simply adding the word(s) "event(s)" to seal 6, for example, when you want to talk about the seal 6 event or 6th seal event being "fulfilled". Using "opened" to describe when the seal event is about to take place - is totally incorrect.

As incorrect as people referring to the person universally as the Antichrist for times when he is not in that role.
______________________________________________________________

What is the "event" of the 7th seal? It is the official opening of the 70th week.

No, it is not. The beginning of the 70th week is the day the Antichrist confirms the covenant for 7 years.

The seventh seal was opened (in Revelation 8) to reveal the trumpet judgments - and the rest of the book.
_______________________________________________________________

Revelation 7 is not part of the 6th seal event.... if that is what you are thinking. Nor a chronological continuation of the 6th seal event. The Revelation 7 events precede the 6th seal event, chronologically on the 7 year timeline.

 

[iamlamad]

The trumpets and vials - are judgments. The seals were locks that kept the book sealed from knowing what was inside.

That's what I am teaching you. To acknowledge the difference.

And adjust your presentation, accordingly, by simply adding the word(s) "event(s)" to seal 6, for example, when you want to talk about the seal 6 event or 6th seal event being "fulfilled". Using "opened" to describe when the seal event is about to take place - is totally incorrect.

As incorrect as people referring to the person universally as the Antichrist for times when he is not in that role.
______________________________________________________________

No, it is not. The beginning of the 70th week is the day the Antichrist confirms the covenant for 7 years.

The seventh seal was opened (in Revelation 8) to reveal the trumpet judgments - and the rest of the book.
_______________________________________________________________

Revelation 7 is not part of the 6th seal event.... if that is what you are thinking. Nor a chronological continuation of the 6th seal event. The Revelation 7 events precede the 6th seal event, chronologically on the 7 year timeline.

Which is more important: to open or break a seal, or the event involved in opening that seal?

Why was John weeping much? For the events themselves? NO! For one worthy to OPEN the seals, so that the book could be opened. And why was it so important? Because it involves taking the kingdoms of the world away from Satan and giving them back to Jesus Christ - the rightful owner and ruler. In other words, ENDING the reign of Satan as the god of this world.

It seems obvious to me, that Satan had something to do with what would happen when some of the seals were unlocked. It was an agreement between God and Satan. He knew the first seal would be the gospel sent out - and he wanted to stop it. He would be allowed to use wars, famines, pestilences, etc, to stop the advance of the gospel. So three of the 7 seals were to allow Satan to stop the gospel - IF He could. But God set his theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. He was not able to contain the gospel, for now it is in most of the world.

Using "opened" to describe when the seal event is about to take place - is totally incorrect.

That is because you imagine all are already opened because the books showed it - not understanding it was in a VISION they were opened, and not in reality. The truth is, the events did and will happen the moment the seal is opened - and seals 6 & 7 are not yet opened in reality.

What word does scripture use? "when the Lamb opened one of the seals"
And you are here to teach?

What you don't know - yet - is that the 7th seal will be opened at the moment the covenant will be confirmed. OF COURSE Jesus will know that moment in time, and will open that 7th seal at that moment to MARK the time in heaven. the 7's are MARKERS - 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial.

The Revelation 7 events precede the 6th seal event, chronologically on the 7 year timeline.
I disagree. God set the chronology. He knew exactly the proper order of things. I will agree that the RAPTURE will happen before the 6th seal, but in chapter 7 time had passed and John saw the raptured church in heaven - after the 6th seal.

There is no way of knowing when the sealing of the 144,000 began. My guess is, it began after the 6th seal right where God showed it to John. The important thing: these two events MUST be accomplished before the 7th seal that opens the 70th week.

 

[iamlamad]

The book has not been resealed. The time was at hand to know what was in the book - back in John's day.

...

The truth is, the book has never been opened in reality: it was only opened in the VISION.
There remains two more seals yet to be opened. When they are, in our future, THEN the book will be opened and then the 70th week will begin.

I hope you know the difference between a vision and reality!

Revelation 9:17
And thus I saw the horses in the vision...

John was not seeing reality take place: it was all a vision. Even at the start - Chapter 4 - John was not seeing the real 95 AD throne room - He was seeing a pre-32 AD throne room in a vision - a throne room before Jesus rose from the dead. It was NOT reality, for in reality Christ had risen over 60 years in John's past. In reality Jesus had sent the Holy Spirit down 63 years before - Yet in the vision John saw that very moment in time.

 

[Douggg]

Which is more important: to open or break a seal, or the event involved in opening that seal?

The event opening the seal was Jesus doing so back in John's day, as recorded in Revelation.

You have it fixed in your head that opening the seals is the same as the sounding the trumpets and the pouring out of the bowls of wrath.

The seals are different. The trumpets and vials are judgments. The seals were locks on the book to keep the contents secret.

Because it involves taking the kingdoms of the world away from Satan and giving them back to Jesus Christ - the rightful owner and ruler. In other words, ENDING the reign of Satan as the god of this world.

Hasn't been done yet.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

What you don't know - yet - is that the 7th seal will be opened at the moment the covenant will be confirmed. OF COURSE Jesus will know that moment in time, and will open that 7th seal at that moment to MARK the time in heaven. the 7's are MARKERS - 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial.

The events shown when the 7th seal was opened in Revelation 8 - will begin to take place in the middle part of the 7 years.

 

[Douggg]

The truth is, the book has never been opened in reality:

The book was opened in reality.

John was taken to heaven in his spirit. John was in heaven but not in his physical body.

When people die - Christians - do they go to heaven, is it reality that they are there?

When John was there in heaven, in reality, he was shown visions. In a very rough analogy, it would be like us seeing something on TV.

 

[iamlamad]

The event opening the seal was Jesus doing so back in John's day, as recorded in Revelation.

You have it fixed in your head that opening the seals is the same as the sounding the trumpets and the pouring out of the bowls of wrath.

The seals are different. The trumpets and vials are judgments. The seals were locks on the book to keep the contents secret.

Hasn't been done yet.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



The events shown when the 7th seal was opened in Revelation 8 - will begin to take place in the middle part of the 7 years.

AS I have said, I disagree with most of what you write. Your timing on Revelation events is far different that what is written. Why is that? Because you ignore the context.

 

[BABerean2]

The truth is, the book has never been opened in reality: it was only opened in the VISION.
There remains two more seals yet to be opened. When they are, in our future, THEN the book will be opened and then the 70th week will begin.

I hope you know the difference between a vision and reality!

Revelation 9:17
And thus I saw the horses in the vision...

John was not seeing reality take place: it was all a vision. Even at the start - Chapter 4 - John was not seeing the real 95 AD throne room - He was seeing a pre-32 AD throne room in a vision - a throne room before Jesus rose from the dead. It was NOT reality, for in reality Christ had risen over 60 years in John's past. In reality Jesus had sent the Holy Spirit down 63 years before - Yet in the vision John saw that very moment in time.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Do you think Christ failed to open the seals during the first century?

Do you think John failed to "Come and see" during the first century?

Do you think John was exaggerating when he said "And I saw..." during the first century ?

.

 

[JM]

You have all convinced me of the Amil Historicist position.

THANK YOU!

 

[Choose Wisely]

I have been trying to get people on this forum to see this for years. You are the first to agree that Lord is coming at the sixth seal to gather the church. Thanks.

Yes the Lord is coming at the 6th seal to gather the church.....FROM HEAVEN. The church is already in heaven via the pretribulation rapture. The church that is raptured will escape the time of testing. He is coming to gather the 12 tribes FROM THE EARTH as proven by the 1st fruits, 144,000 which are 12,000 from each tribe.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

yep. Most people miss that.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Do you think Christ failed to open the seals during the first century?

Do you think John failed to "Come and see" during the first century?

Do you think John was exaggerating when he said "And I saw..." during the first century ?

.

Do you think that the wrath of God has begun?

No seals are opened.

 

[BABerean2]

Do you think that the wrath of God has begun?

No seals are opened.

No. The wrath of God comes at the future Second Coming of Christ.

Christ opened the seals during the first century, so that He could show John the future.

.

 

[Choose Wisely]

No. The wrath of God comes at the future Second Coming of Christ.

Christ opened the seals during the first century, so that He could show John the future.

.

Don't you think Jesus could just show John a vision of what was going to happen without the seals being opened. Because if he opened the 6th seal then it would be the time of his wrath. No seals are opened and will not be until after the pretribuation rapture of the church.

 

[BABerean2]

Don't you think Jesus could just show John a vision of what was going to happen without the seals being opened. Because if he opened the 6th seal then it would be the time of his wrath. No seals are opened and will not be until after the pretribuation rapture of the church.

What does the text say?

Rev 6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see."
Rev 6:2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Any unbiased reader would say that the seal was opened by Christ, and then John was told... "Come and see.", and then John looked at the vision and tells us what he saw.

How could John see the event if the seal had not been opened?

If someone gives me a book as a Christmas present wrapped as a gift, how can I read it without taking off the wrapping paper?

.