Prewrath?

[Choose Wisely]

It doesn't even make sense that the daily sacrifice is taken away - then a period over three later the AoD is setup.

Like I said, it doesn't make sense to you so your cast aside rock solid information. The issue is you probably don't understand the difference between tribulation and Gods wrath.

No, it is not the same problem. I can put the sixth seal event on the timeline where it fits... on day 2475.

Actually the end of the 6th seal likely happens on day 2520. But since you don't understand that the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering.........as proven by the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7........your timeline is wrong as you think day 2520 is when Jesus sets up His kingdom on earth.

CW, I am not the person who has the problem. Everything on the timeline I show fits within the seven years - which ends the day Jesus returns.

I just read your other post where you have the 7th trumpet happening before the sixth seal. This would be impossible as the seventh trumpet requires the 7th seal to be opened before it can be blown. And the 7th seal is after the sixth seal............not before.

Your timeline is so screwed up, you are better off forgetting everything you think you know about Revelation and starting over. Don't see much hope.

 

[Douggg]

How can that be when you have the sixth seal event on day 2475 and think Jesus returns to set up his kingdom on day 2520. What are you going to do with the 5 months in Rev 9? Well.........you got problems.

Rev 9
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

The five months will be before day 2475, while the great tribulation is at its worst. The tormenting locust judgment, in the text is before the large army that kills a third of mankind. That army is the kings of the east - heading west, on their way for the battles in Daniel 11:40-44.


from my thread - "the 7 year timeline"


time times half time left in the 7

years.....Satan has been cast down..........incarnates the AoD, worshiped...... the

great tribulation is now at its worst (the tormenting locust here, CW) ..........near the

end, the Daniel 11:40-44 battles take place............suddenly, day 2475 sixth seal event

(Matthew 24:29-30 sign of Son of Man in heaven).........the armies assemble at

Armageddon to make war against Jesus..........day 2520 last day of the 7

years, Jesus descends to earth and executes judgment on them.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

But since you don't understand that the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering.........as proven by the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7

I have been trying to get people on this forum to see this for years. You are the first to agree that Lord is coming at the sixth seal to gather the church. Thanks.

 

[iamlamad]

All the seals, locks, on the book were removed back when John received Revelation.

The contents - the events - that were revealed, however, have not taken place yet.

But the book itself was opened back in John's day, and he reported what he was shown to the church.

It appears to me that you seem to be thinking that each seal is some sort of trigger. That things don't happen literally - until each seal is opened, at a certain time in history.

I wrote sixth seal event

You left out what I wrote - sixth seal event - not just 6th seal.

And I did not write after the entire week is finished. The sixth seal event will take place 1290 days from when the AoD is setup on day 1185. Which puts the sixth seal event on day 2475 of the 2520 day 7 year timeline.

The book has already been opened, and the seals removed, otherwise, we would not know what it contains.
________________________________________________________________

lamad, when people discuss Revelation with each other, they will often say - when the sixth seal (or whatever seal) is "opened" - it is just bad application of language - what is really being meant is when the events of the sixth seal (or whatever seal) take place or are fulfilled.

I don't say when the sixth seal is opened - for that very reason. Because it is misleading, and not factual. Instead, I will write when the sixth seal event takes place.

I would like to see you start using - sixth seal event - instead of just sixth seal. And leave out the "opened" as something that takes place in the future. The entire book has already been "opened" when John was shown the contents.

As usual, you and I disagree on almost every point. I don't think it is misleading: these are real seals keeping the book closed until the proper time.

All the seals, locks, on the book were removed back when John received Revelation.
You are free to believe that if you choose. Some people actually believe most of Revelation is history. You have good company in error. We know what it contains because God showed it to John in a VISION just so we would know! Vision is not reality - no matter what you think.

what is really being meant is when the events of the sixth seal (or whatever seal) take place or are fulfilled. Let's just stick with what is written: "And when he had opened the second seal..." John writes of the seals being opened....THEN He writes of the events that take place.

We have to determine if a seal has been opened in reality from what is written. We can determine, for example, that the first five seals are opened and the events have and are taking place. We determine that from chapters 4 and 5 that show us Jesus got the book and began opening the seals around 32 AD. But then we have to see where He STOPPED. I know, you don't think He did. Well, the 6th seal is not open, for when it will be opened THEN those things written will take place - and they have not as yet.

We KNOW the first seal is opened and those events started, for the first seal is the church taking the Gospel to the world. We also know seals 2-4 have been opened for they are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel - and he would have started the moment someone tried to take the gospel to a new place.

We know seal 5 has been opened for that is the martyrs of the church age.

It appears to me that you seem to be thinking that each seal is some sort of trigger. That things don't happen literally - until each seal is opened, at a certain time in history.
Yes, but I don't use the word trigger here. When a seal is opened for real (not in the vision) then those events will happen...right then. I am convinced that is the intent of the Author.

The sixth seal event will take place 1290 days from when the AoD is setup on day 1185.
I don't buy into your numbers. Daniel did NOT write a From / To sentence. Many read it that way, but he wrote "from this AND from that with no "to." Daniel did not at that time know when to start, so the angel gave Him a "From..."

But the book itself was opened back in John's day, and he reported what he was shown to the church.
Do you think God knew what was in the book? The book was not and IS NOT opened, for there remains the 6th and 7th seal to be opened before the book will be opened. I wonder, do you ever read commentators to find out what the church believe in the centuries before us? So we could have the book of Revelation, God showed the opened book in a VISION. So we will know what is coming before it comes.

 

[iamlamad]

I have been trying to get people on this forum to see this for years. You are the first to agree that Lord is coming at the sixth seal to gather the church. Thanks.

I have been saying that for years, but I think the rapture will be a second or two before the 6th seal.

 

[iamlamad]

The five months will be before day 2475, while the great tribulation is at its worst. The tormenting locust judgment, in the text is before the large army that kills a third of mankind. That army is the kings of the east - heading west, on their way for the battles in Daniel 11:40-44.


from my thread - "the 7 year timeline"


time times half time left in the 7

years.....Satan has been cast down..........incarnates the AoD, worshiped...... the

great tribulation is now at its worst (the tormenting locust here, CW) ..........near the

end, the Daniel 11:40-44 battles take place............suddenly, day 2475 sixth seal event

(Matthew 24:29-30 sign of Son of Man in heaven).........the armies assemble at

Armageddon to make war against Jesus..........day 2520 last day of the 7

years, Jesus descends to earth and executes judgment on them.

This is just wild imagination. Sorry, Douggg but you are showing us you have ZERO correct understanding of these things. No one buys into your numbers. They are imagination.

Read this very carefully: the 70th week is INSIDE the book. The book will not be opened so those events (the 70th week) can begin UNTIL ALL SEVEN SEALS are opened. We are now waiting on the 6th seal to be opened so that EVENT can and will take place. It will start THE DAY of the LORD. The 70th week will start after the DAY (it starts with the trumpet judgments).

Therefore, what you suggest above is simply IMPOSSIBLE. NOTHING from inside the book is related to ANY seal. By the time the first trumpet is sounded, all the seals are FINISHED - done - completed and gone into history

 

[iamlamad]

What's the difference between distress, tribulation and wrath?

Zephaniah 1:15
15 That day is a day of wrath<5678>, A day of tribulation/distress<6869> and constraint<4691>,
A day of devastation and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,

Daniel 12:1
“At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of tribulation/distress<6869, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.
And at that time your people shall escape, every one who is found written in the book.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 harmonized

Matthew 24:21
for then shall be great tribulation<2347> , such as was not from the beginning of world till now, no, nor may be becoming
Mark 13:19
For in those days shall be tribulation<2347> such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Luke 21 mentions both "great distress" and "wrath" but not "great tribulation".
Both distress and tribulation appear to be similar in meaning?

Wrath #3709 is only used in 5 verses of the Gospels, the verse in Matthew is used against the corrupt murderous Judean rulers.

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress<318> in the land and wrath <3709>upon this people.

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath<3709>?

Revelation 11:18 uses the same exact form of the word #3709 as in Luke 21:23.

Revelation 11:18
[Matthew 3:7 Luke 21:23]
The nations were angry, and Your wrath<3709> has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

I believe the word "tribulation" comes from an ancient farm took called a THIBBLE. It was used to thresh out grain. It applied PRESSURE on the grain to thresh it out.

Tribulation then is PRESSURE: pressure to take the mark when very thirsty. Pressure to save your head versus bow down to the image.

This pressure comes from God because it is judgment. It is not His will, for His will is that all would come to repentance. But when people rebel against Him, they leave Him no other choice. He must bring judgment. When judgment comes - to bring repentance - and people rebel instead of repent, then God gets angry.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Choose Wisely said: ↑
But since you don't understand that the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering.........as proven by the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7

I have been trying to get people on this forum to see this for years. You are the first to agree that Lord is coming at the sixth seal to gather the church. Thanks.

The 6th seal is also mentioned in the Olivet/Temple Discourse

NKJV)
Revelation 6:12
12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and behold! a great earthquake came,
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood,
13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth —
as a fig-tree doth cast her winter figs, by a great wind being shaken

Matthew 24:
29 ‘And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken<4531>
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree

Mark 13:
24 ‘But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, 25 and the stars of the heaven shall be falling,
and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken<4531>
28 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree:

Luke 21:
25 ‘And there shall be signs in sun, and moon, and stars,
and on the land [is] distress of nations with perplexity, sea and billow roaring;
26 men fainting at heart from fear, and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited-land<3625>,
for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken<4531>.
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.

.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The 6th seal is also mentioned in the Olivet/Temple Discourse

NKJV)
Revelation 6:12
12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and behold! a great earthquake came,
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood,
13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth —
as a fig-tree doth cast her winter figs, by a great wind being shaken

Matthew 24:
29 ‘And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken<4531>
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree

Mark 13:
24 ‘But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, 25 and the stars of the heaven shall be falling,
and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken<4531>
28 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree:

Luke 21:
25 ‘And there shall be signs in sun, and moon, and stars,
and on the land [is] distress of nations with perplexity, sea and billow roaring;
26 men fainting at heart from fear, and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited-land<3625>,
for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken<4531>.
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.

.

I myself do not think that Jesus is coming for the church at the 6th seal. I believe the gathering will be the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth and the church that is already in heaven via the pre tribulation rapture.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

The 6th seal is also mentioned in the Olivet/Temple Discourse

NKJV)
Revelation 6:12
12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and behold! a great earthquake came,
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood,
13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth —
as a fig-tree doth cast her winter figs, by a great wind being shaken

Matthew 24:
29 ‘And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken<4531>
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree

Mark 13:
24 ‘But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, 25 and the stars of the heaven shall be falling,
and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken<4531>
28 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree:

Luke 21:
25 ‘And there shall be signs in sun, and moon, and stars,
and on the land [is] distress of nations with perplexity, sea and billow roaring;
26 men fainting at heart from fear, and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited-land<3625>,
for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken<4531>.
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.

.

NO! Not you too? Has everyone on this forum fallen into this error?
Please visit my new thread on the signs. We will discuss it in depth there.
In short, the signs in the sun and moon in the Olivet discourse will come as the sign for HIS COMING (Rev. 19) and will be after the days of GT.

On the other hand the signs at the 6th seal will come before the 70th week has even started, and will be the sign for the DAY of the Lord. These two signs are different and they will be seen over 7 years apart.

 

[Douggg]

Do you think God knew what was in the book? The book was not and IS NOT opened, for there remains the 6th and 7th seal to be opened before the book will be opened. I wonder, do you ever read commentators to find out what the church believe in the centuries before us? So we could have the book of Revelation, God showed the opened book in a VISION. So we will know what is coming before it comes.

You are confusing "revealed" and "fulfilled".

The seals have all being broken open. And the contents of the book "revealed" to John and him reporting it to the church. But contents not yet "fulfilled".

When you say the sixth seal has not been opened - it doesn't make any sense because we know what the contents are in that part of the book because the sixth seal was opened by Jesus already.

 

[Douggg]

Read this very carefully: the 70th week is INSIDE the book. The book will not be opened so those events (the 70th week) can begin UNTIL ALL SEVEN SEALS are opened. We are now waiting on the 6th seal to be opened so that EVENT can and will take place. It will start THE DAY of the LORD. The 70th week will start after the DAY (it starts with the trumpet judgments).

The book was already opened by Jesus back in John's day. That's the only reason we know what is in it. The 70th week has not began yet. Not fulfilled. Any part of it.

 

[iamlamad]

You are confusing "revealed" and "fulfilled".

The seals have all being broken open. And the contents of the book "revealed" to John and him reporting it to the church. But contents not yet "fulfilled".

When you say the sixth seal has not been opened - it doesn't make any sense because we know what the contents are in that part of the book because the sixth seal was opened by Jesus already.

Sorry, but you are the one that does not understand.
They were revealed via a VISION. They will happen in reality as time progresses.

Here is the point: these things happen in REALITY when the seal is opened in reality. When a seal is opened in the vision, that is NOT reality and those events will NOT happen. The 6th seal events have not yet been fulfilled.

You are having trouble with what is vision and what is reality.

I guess these are minor points: a more major point is that seals 1-5 have been fulfilled - and are ongoing. For example, people are STILL being martyred and the count is adding up.

Seal one is the church taking the gospel to the world. That event STARTED in 32 AD and is continuing today.
Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. Of course we know he has failed - but his effort are still ongoing. Missionaries sometimes are martyred.

 

[iamlamad]

The book was already opened by Jesus back in John's day. That's the only reason we know what is in it. The 70th week has not began yet. Not fulfilled. Any part of it.

I agree that the 70th week is future. But the 70th week is outlined and marked by the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial. NONE of these events have happened yet.
However, seals 1 through 5 have happened and are ongoing.

 

[iamlamad]

I myself do not think that Jesus is coming for the church at the 6th seal. I believe the gathering will be the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth and the church that is already in heaven via the pre tribulation rapture.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Just one of MANY points we disagree on. The point you miss is, the "trib" begins at the 7th seal. So a 6th seal rapture will be pretrib.

 

[Douggg]

Sorry, but you are the one that does not understand.
They were revealed via a VISION. They will happen in reality as time progresses.

People call that being "fulfilled".

 

[Douggg]

Here is the point: these things happen in REALITY when the seal is opened in reality. When a seal is opened in the vision, that is NOT reality and those events will NOT happen. The 6th seal events have not yet been fulfilled.

You are having trouble with what is vision and what is reality.

John was presented visions of what would take place in the future in the end times. Those visions will be fulfilled during the 7 years forthcoming.

Has nothing to do with seals being opened in the future. The seals have already been opened; their function of keeping the contents of the book secret - is over.

The 6th seal events have not yet been fulfilled.

Agreed.

 

[Douggg]

However, seals 1 through 5 have happened and are ongoing

Why can't you simply add the word "event" or "events" ?

such as seal 1 events, or seal 5 events. So that you are talking about the events and not the seals.

The seals are nothing but a lock on the book . The events are what are in the book.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
The 6th seal is also mentioned in the Olivet/Temple Discourse

NO! Not you too? Has everyone on this forum fallen into this error?
Please visit my new thread on the signs. We will discuss it in depth there.
In short, the signs in the sun and moon in the Olivet discourse will come as the sign for HIS COMING (Rev. 19) and will be after the days of GT.

On the other hand the signs at the 6th seal will come before the 70th week has even started, and will be the sign for the DAY of the Lord. These two signs are different and they will be seen over 7 years apart.

I am just quoting verses and looking how everyone here is interpreting them
Oh, I forgot, a "great earthquake" is mentioned.
Now this fascinates me as the phrase "great earthquake" occurs in only 6 verses of the entire Bible!
3 of those in Revelation.....

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

4578. seismos sice-mos' from 4579; a commotion, i.e. (of the air) a gale, (of the ground) an earthquake:--earthquake, tempest.

NKJV)
Revelation 6:12
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[fn] there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[fn] became like blood.

Ezekiel 38:19
“For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken:
‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake<7494> in the land of Israel,

Matthew 8:24 didn't show up as "earthquake" in a concordance, but rather "tempest/storm" is used.
Luke uses the phrase "sea and waves roaring".
That phrase is used a few times in the OT, but it appears Jeremiah 31:35 includes all of it that is in Luke 21:25.
First time I have ever noticed that.

Luke 21:25 ‘And there shall be signs in sun, and moon, and stars,
and on the land [is] distress of nations with perplexity, roaring of sea and waves.
Jeremiah 31:35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The LORD of hosts is His name)

Matthew 8:24
And, behold! there arose a great tempest<4578> in the sea,
insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

Luke uses the plural here:

Luke 21:11
There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places,
and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

Matthew 28:2
And behold, there was a great earthquake;
for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door,[fn] and sat on it.

Act 16:26
Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken;
and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone's chains were loosed.

Revelation 11:13
In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell.
In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed,
and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Revelation 16:18
And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake,
such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men/mankind became on the earth.

Haggai 2:
6 For thus says Yahweh of Hosts:
Yet once more, a little, and I am quaking<07493> the heavens and the land, and the sea, and the dry,
7 And I quake<07493> all of the nations and they come, desired of all of the nations.
And I fill this House with honor says Yahweh of Hosts.
[Ezekiel 38:19/Revelation 16:18]

Matthew 21:10
And of entering Him into Jerusalem, is moved/shaken<4579> (5681) all the City saying `Who-any is this'?
Hebrews 12:26
Whose voice the land shakes then, now yet He has promised saying 'still once I shall be quaking<4579> (5719) not only the land but also the Heaven.
[Haggai 2:6]

.

 

[iamlamad]

John was presented visions of what would take place in the future in the end times. Those visions will be fulfilled during the 7 years forthcoming.

Has nothing to do with seals being opened in the future. The seals have already been opened; their function of keeping the contents of the book secret - is over.

Agreed.

Dream on. You are living in an end time fantasy world.

For example, the events of the trumpet judgments WILL NOT HAPPEN until the trumpets are sounded in the real world. I agree they were sounded in a vision so we could have the book. Most of the book of Revelation was given to John is vision form. Visions are NOT reality. I can assure you, 7 angels are not at this moment holding 7 trumpets.
7 Angels are not at this moment holding 7 vials of God's wrath.

These events John saw in the vision will happen sequentially in the very order that John saw them in the vision. My point is, they have not happened yet in the real world.
No vial with an associated plague has happened. in fact, no vial CAN happen in the real world until all 7 trumpets have sounded.

In the real world, no trumpet has sounded! No angel has of yet received their trumpets.In fact, no can will receive their trumpets until the 7th seal has been opened in the real world.

The 7th seal will not be opened until the 6th seal is opened.

This is the REAL world explained.