pretty much no hope

[Anonymous User_]

Raven,

It's hard to say what it would look like, because making a decision like that is not a constant repetitive thing. When you breathe, you don't think to yourself on each breath, "breathe. Breathe. Breathe." You just do it and live. When you make a decision to go on a vacation next week, you might have all kinds of worries about what might happen on your vacation or that something might fall through. But you do not fix this problem by frantically trying to prove that nothing bad could statistically happen or repeat to yourself, "I'm still going on vacation. I'm still going on vacation," nor to you try to convince yourself that you will still go on vacation. You just keep your plans to go on the trip and don't change them! Then you buy your plane tickets, pack your luggage, and get on the plane. All you have to do is confess Jesus' Truth and hold it as truth. And when the doubts come, refuse to submit to them and deny Jesus. Just do not change your decision.

I do not know for certain that there is a God because it's been 100% clearly proven to me. But I'm not an agnostic. Based on the evidence I do have of God and Christ, I chose to believe that it's true. If you don't want to be an agnostic, then don't! This sentence,

"If God chooses people to born knowing they wouldn't believe he choose for the person not to be saved."

is an OCD sentence if I ever saw one. And I mean you no disrespect, because I know how real and logical it proves to be to you, and I have thought many things just like this and often still think things like it. The thing is, this sentence is chasing itself in a circle. You are mixing God's power to transcend time and control everything and the slack in the leash He allows us to make our own decisions. It's a mystery how God has everything in existence laid out yet He simultaneously allows us to make our own decisions. It is as inexplainable a quandary as the existence of the Trinity. But you have got to believe that if your desire is to be saved, it is not being held from you! Those who go to Hell are those who CHOOSE to go to Hell, because ultimately Hell is choosing a life without God.

As for 2012, the Bible clearly states that no one will know the date of the apocalypse but God Himself. I read this one girl's explanation on Yahoo of why so many people predicted 2012:

"...because many of the societies that predicted it were advanced in astronomy.Simple as that. Plenty of peoples over the years have been able to predict where the planets would move and when they would align.The apocalypse issue comes in because,while certainly advanced in astronomy,they were still highly superstitious cultures.They were the same ones that sacrificed people to the gods and thought virgins killed diseases.
They saw this rare event occurring years from when they lived and thought it meant the end of the world..." - Aeca

There are many seeming proofs of other beliefs and religions, but ultimately their evidence falls flat against that of Christianity. This is only feeding your compulsions, but let me go ahead and recommend that you read all three of Lee Strobel's books:
The Case for Faith
The Case for Christ
The Case for a Creator
Lee Strobel, the author, was a dedicated, hard-set atheist who didn't like Christianity at all. He set out to interview scholars about evidence of Jesus and God's reality, expecting to baffle those he interviewed with tough questions and thus prove Christianity false once and for all. He ultimately came to confess Christ as his savior because the evidence overwhelmed him and he felt that he could not deny Jesus' existence. He took this feeling and chose to submit to it, and believed in Christ. (See what I told you? If you were on the other side of the fence in doubt, you would see all the evidence he saw and have trouble believing in atheism/agnosticism!)

You do not have only a year to be saved. You have all the time you need to make your decision. God knows your heart, and it is not His wish for you to go to Hell. As the Bible says, he has prolonged these days so that all who will may enter Heaven.

There's a Snow Patrol song that I really like, 'Just Say Yes'. This is a few lines of it:
Just say yes
Just say there's nothing holding you back*
It's not a test
Nor a trick of the mind
Only love
~~
It's simple and you know it is
You know it is

*(Though in OCD we do know it feels like doubts are holding us back.)

 

[raven1]

So basically live as if. I was told by someone else but does that mean I push the doubts away. I have read mere Christianity , the case for faith and a creator and evidence of an afterlife some of it is hard to understand and I doubted the rest. You cannot really doubt and still have faith that doesn't make sense. It makes more sense OCD makes you think God doesn't exist but you know in your heart he is otherwise you wouldn't be able to trust like you do you have to really have faith. There are so many others like u in here and none that are true doubters like me. If I act as if I am basically saying God is a fool and doesn't know I am pretending. He knows I think atheists are smarter but freak out because he might be real and send me to hell. I can't hide that. THe being chosen is a fundametalist thing.You doubt God exists so what do you do to choose him?

 

[Anonymous User_]

Raven,

Living 'as if' something were real but you don't truly believe deep down that it is a foolish thing to do, and I would not recommend you to do something like that. The very fact that you are paranoid that God and Hell exist is proof that you believe, at least just a little bit, that God is real. The Bible says you only need faith the size of a mustard seed. What if the Wicked Witch's winged monkeys come and take me away because I don't believe they exist? I'm not worried at all that this will happen because I know that this is a fantastical and ridiculous notion and that they doesn't exist, and it could never happen. Therefore, I'm not afraid of not believing in it. The very fact that you FEAR that God IS real means that you have what it takes within you, though it may be the size of a mustard seed, to make that choice of faith. Would I doubt that a rickety, rotting rope bridge is going to hold up if I step onto it? Of COURSE I would! But by FAITH I choose to step on to it regardless of what I think or feel. And would I step onto it if I had no kind of reassurance whatsoever that it would hold? Of course not! But let's say my experienced tour guide assured me that it was inspected regularly and that he traveled it many times. Then I would have a basis of faith which with to take my first steps. Would my doubts go away? Of course not! What if he were lying to me? What if a part of it had been neglected to be inspected? But I trust his word and experience despite these doubts and take that step. That's what people mean by 'a leap of faith.' You must do this with God. There is SO much evidence for God and the Bible's truth through scientific and archaeological facts, testimonies, the witness of others who love Christ, the philosophical wonder and perfection of the Christian message, prophecies come true, and so forth. Of course there will be evidence against it. Of course you have doubt. Especially with OCD, WHICH CAUSES YOU TO FEEL CONVINCED OF WHAT YOU FEAR MOST.

Raven, I am a true doubter. If you would like to argue the point, then ignore the hours I've spent sobbing, holed up in my bedroom reading apologetics, or the time I stayed in my hotel room during my family's vacation to Colorado as they enjoyed the trip because I was frantically surfing the web for answers to my questions, or the nights I've prayed for God to end it and take me in that moment to Heaven because I couldn't bear the burden of uncertainty of God and my salvation. I have been to the blackest pits of doubt and felt the deepest sense of hopelessness that I imagine one could feel. I know your struggle. But I have made a choice; the choice which keeps me alive. I have CHOSEN to trust Christ as my Savior no matter my doubts. And slowly I can see God working with my doubts and my OCD for His glory, even when I take one step forward and three steps back. Just the other day I was terrified about one doubt and felt the urge to research the answer, so I gave in and did. Though this isn't beneficial to my cognitive therapy, God did use it to His glory. The next day an atheist friend asked me the exact same question, and I was able to use the new information I'd gained and witness to her, sharing the Gospel.

God knows you are doubting, and He doesn't blame you for it. You are not blamed for something that's beyond your control. We cannot help what enters our mind and what our mind does with it! God is a God of sense, not nonsense. God is a God of understanding. God doesn't expect you to believe some ridiculous fantasy. Why else would Jesus have performed all those miracles and signs to assure people that there were good grounds on which to believe in Him? God understands when an atheist has more information than you do at the moment. I've been point-walloped by so many atheists in the past because they had better information than I did at the time! Does that mean they had the RIGHT information at the moment? No, it doesn't! They had just done more homework than I did.

Keep this in mind when you doubt: Everything is not as it seems.

 

[raven1]

I guess I don't believe Ocd causes you to doubt God exists I think maybe only God can cause you to believe and not be a doubter that is why I say what if we are choosen.

 

[Anonymous User_]

Raven,

People WITHOUT OCD doubt. I hope I haven't been causing you to believe that only OCD sufferers doubt, because that's simply not true! In fact, I'm pretty sure every Christian has doubts to some extent. I'm only saying that since you are OCD, your doubts are more likely to be unrelenting, more irrational, and harder to overcome, and they bombard your mind like any other kind of OCD obsession would. An OCD sufferer who worries about germs is terribly afraid of catching a disease via germs and thus washes and purifies constantly. This doesn't mean that a non-OCD sufferer doesn't worry about germs. Awareness, worry, and avoidance of germs exists outside of OCD, obviously. So does doubt. It's just magnified and distorted to an unbearable extent with OCD. So it doesn't matter whether you are OCD. A non-OCD Christian who doubts still cannot help that the doubts come into their mind. They still have to make the choice to believe irregardless. And like the compulsive hoarder who looks at their self-made Hades and says, "Well, I GUESS it's a little messy..." you've got to be able to step outside of yourself and realize that your doubts are magnified, aggravated, and probably for most of the time conceived from your OCD. A counselor who is trained in dealing with patients who suffer from OCD will be able to objectively help you to point these things out. Even if some of your doubts may seem like simple and logical doubts that non-OCD sufferers hold, your mental processing of them is still highly affected by your OCD. You will not come to conclusions as quickly as non-OCD doubters, and you will nit-pick and run into dead ends, trying to scale large mental blocks. You will second-guess answers and be slow to believe evidence and allow it to soak in, whereas a non-OCD doubter might take a generally good answer to their question and be satisfied. You must understand that your doubts are either a product of or dramatically affected by your OCD!

Raven, all I can say to you is what I have already said. If you want to believe in Christ, He will not withhold the cross from you. He has equipped you with everything you need to make that decision of faith. ANYONE WHO WANTS CHRIST MAY HAVE HIM. You MUST believe this! God would be a cruel God if He dangled that carrot in front of you! But He is a merciful and loving God. He WANTS you in Heaven, Raven. You HAVE a choice. If you are destined for Hell, it is because you yourself choose Hell, not because God created you for it or is keeping you from Heaven. You must try and trust me when I tell you that you have a choice.

Have you found a Christian therapist or psychologist yet? Make sure they are trained in treating anxiety disorders - Christian mentors and Family Bookstore devotionals are typically not trained in the way of OCD and can misunderstand how your disorder affects your way of being, and they may say something that upsets you. You need to seek a Christian who is trained in dealing with anxiety disorders.

Is any of my advice helping? I'm not offended at all if it isn't - I've been on your side of the discussion a lot, and I know it's hard, often near impossible, to get an answer that provides relief and quiets the nagging fears in your mind.

 

[cedward1]

Raven, let's suppose you stopped doubting so much, and got to the point where you really believed the facts of the Gospel. How much do you think you would need to believe in order to be saved? 80%? 90%? 99.9999%?See, anything less than 100% certainty would still be doubt, and nobody (as far as I know) has 100% certainty about anything.

That's the trouble with looking to yourself for salvation. When I doubt my salvation, that is usually at the root of it. If we look at ourselves at all, then anything less than perfection will doom us. And nobody has perfection in anything. Those of us with OCD have an even harder time with this, because doubt is always magnified.

I was reading a sermon yesterday on this subject. As the pastor was saying, we look to Jesus to be saved. We don't look at our look. That would be like a sailor looking at his anchor to keep his ship in place during a storm. He looks at the rock that the anchor grips, not the anchor.

Same thing with faith. Jesus saves us, not our belief! Don't trust anything in yourself to save you. You will never find any justification for salvation in your own heart.

 

[kodadog1024]

Raven, let's suppose you stopped doubting so much, and got to the point where you really believed the facts of the Gospel. How much do you think you would need to believe in order to be saved? 80%? 90%? 99.9999%?See, anything less than 100% certainty would still be doubt, and nobody (as far as I know) has 100% certainty about anything.

That's the trouble with looking to yourself for salvation. When I doubt my salvation, that is usually at the root of it. If we look at ourselves at all, then anything less than perfection will doom us. And nobody has perfection in anything. Those of us with OCD have an even harder time with this, because doubt is always magnified.

I was reading a sermon yesterday on this subject. As the pastor was saying, we look to Jesus to be saved. We don't look at our look. That would be like a sailor looking at his anchor to keep his ship in place during a storm. He looks at the rock that the anchor grips, not the anchor.

Same thing with faith. Jesus saves us, not our belief! Don't trust anything in yourself to save you. You will never find any justification for salvation in your own heart.

well put! You'll get there Raven. You have to cut yourself some slack. You want to believe so bad and need this total 100% visual reassurance that Christ/God exist that your looking right past Him. He's in you. He's stronger than your doubt, than my fears. You've already confessed toi Him that He is your Christ. Now let that be, as hard as it is. Let HIM work out the details.... He's NOT going to let you down. He's your shepherd and you are part of his prized possession. If you are lost, He will find you, ... (hugs)

 

[raven1]

Thanks guys thanks for the post this is what I don't understand. Au you said I need to choose
I pray to God I read his word and go to church. You defend God telling me all the reasons I have to believe to me that means you do not doubt. It feels like you are telling me I need to believe like you do. I want to so I can be saved too. I am not trying to be mean Iam just confused. It is like a salesman who believes in his product he will tell me y I should think so to because he BELIEVES not doubts.Either you believe doubt or don't believe I can't know for sure the middle will save me.

Also if no one believes 100 percent why is everyone not freaking about no afterlife if people don't believe there just hopeful also before I did believe 100 percent. I am afraid to even go on an hour car trip tonight because I don't know I am saved. If Ocd can't cause you to doubt it is my fault but how can I CHOOSE to believe if I doubt. That is like acting as if. I wan ah ha Ibelieve to pop in built doesn't I just doubt off the bat or analyze then doubt.

 

[Anonymous User_]

Raven,

What do you think about some of the metaphors I've told you? That faith is an action, and doubt is just a feeling/thought? Just last night I had some doubts enter my mind about Jesus saying something that seemingly contradicted the Christian faith. "Is Jesus really the perfect, holy Christ, then?" I worried. I was tempted to go and look up pastor's comments on Jesus' statement and find proof that Jesus was speaking truthfully. But then I told myself, "I know that God is holy. I know that there is an explanation for this that I am not seeing." Did that make the doubt go away? Not at first! My stomach was still squirming with anxiety! It still APPEARED like Jesus wasn't really what He was cracked up to be. But I chose to trust that I simply couldn't see the answer in that moment, and that God is still true. And even if I HAD looked up that answer, as I have many times before, as long as I continue to trust Christ as my savior and confess Him as Lord, I am saved.

Think of the rickety bridge metaphor and the plexiglass observation deck metaphor I mentioned. What thoughts come to mind? Don't you think that taking that 'leap of FAITH' and stepping out onto either of those things exists with doubts still causing the heart to pound and the knees to turn wobbly?

What do you think about what I told you about your fear of Hell proving that you have enough within you to have the faith the size of a mustard seed, which is all that's required?

There is a difference between believing and being mentally convinced. You cannot believe in a percentage. You either do or don't, because believing is a choice. You can be mentally CONVINCED in a percentage. Sometimes I'm 70 percent convinced that Christ is real. Sometimes I'm 20 percent convinced. But I always choose to TRUST that He's real, not matter how I'm feeling or what I'm thinking. And asking you to trust that He's real is not asking you to PRETEND that He's real. God is a God of sense, not nonsense. He would never ask you to put your trust in a fantasy that no one could believe. You just have to hold on to the fact that there is good evidence of God and truth in the Bible, and that no matter how unreal it may seem at times, you have the inability to see the whole picture. As humans on earth, we don't get to see how God's existence proves itself fully. We just have to trust with the proof He HAS allowed us to see and know that He has the rest covered.

You will never have an Ah-ha moment, Raven. Never. You suffer from OCD. If you DO ever have an Ah-ha moment, within the next breath you will be second-guessing it. You can't wait for this, though I know you want it to all fall together into a well-packaged, easy-to-read understanding. It won't. Stop chasing this; you are putting unnecessary expectations and burdens on yourself.

Of course we're hopeful! But FEELINGS of hopefulness and doubt run in the same lane. It still is all about choice.

It isn't your fault! It's no one's fault that they doubt; this is still an uncontrollable act of the mind. You're only faulted with what you choose to DO with your doubts.

I'm so sorry that you're afraid to leave your house! That was how I was on my vacation to Colorado. If you simply choose to trust Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, then there is no fear in death. Easier said than felt, right? But you have got to take that courageous step!

 

[raven1]

OK so OCD doesnt cause doubt God exists that's not logical so when you doubt Gods existance you are in duality mode maybe athiests are right maybe Christians are at any given time you will sit in one or the other camps. If you choose you are jst choosing the safest bet, Pascals wager and how do u come out of the athiest camp if your logic is for that camp at that time you can't erase that by just choosing to alter your logic u can't alter your logic.

 

[hollyda]

Raven,

I'm doing a blind-post. There's every possibility someone has already said this, or that I'm repeating something I told you before. Yet here it goes.

OCD is the doubting disease. We know this. In the mind of an OCD sufferer, there are no gray areas. Either in your case, "yes, I believe in God, and therefore I am confident God exists" or "I doubt God's existence, therefore how can he exist, or if he exists, how can he forgive me for doubting his existence."

As someone with OCD: you will never, ever, ever, ever, ever have certainty your fears aren't true. What you have instead is the choice to live with uncertainty OR continue torturing yourself with doubt. You've been doing the latter for months. OCD's constant stream of feeding you doubt will never give you an answer, so to keep searching for one is just fueling your obsessive thoughts.

Getting into therapy is a must. You've tried it on your own. You've tried it posting here. Whatever you're doing obviously isn't working, and asking these questions over and over again will only provide more doubt and discomfort. The answer is facing that fear and saying, "Yes. God could not exist. However, I choose to believe he does. I can live with the possibility that I am wrong."

This is where religion and OCD diverge. Many Christians may be prone to tell you otherwise. And while I understand their perspective from a theological point of view, dealing with religion in OCD is a completely different beast than dealing with the doubts one might feel as a believer. A believer might have a doubt, question, but ultimately dismiss it. What you (and you're not alone) have done is lock yourself in a state of ruminating, proof-seeking, reassurance-asking, but there is never going to be a solid answer to your question because your OCD will ultimately find a way to counter whatever temporary peace you find.

In order to get better, a person with OCD has to face their fears. This does not mean giving into them: it means allowing for the possibility that the fear is true, but accepting that the possibility of truth is not the same thing as the certainty of truth. It's possible I'm in love with my fiance's brother. But that's not the truth. It's possible that God doesn't exist, but that question is INDEPENDENT of the one you're asking yourself: "Should I believe?" If you feel the answer is yes, then you already have your answer.

The treatment strategies with this form of OCD [...] A gradual acceptance of living with uncertainty, and choosing to be willing to be resilient to the pain of not having a definitive answer, are paramount features of these treatments. A frequently expressed phrase which captures the essence of the therapeutic goal is expressed in the question: "Are you living in the choice or the experience?" Living in the experience implies using one’s feeling to gain insight into the justification of continuing. For persons with this type of OCD, living in the experience perpetuates the endless cycle of seeking emotional justification to derive a conclusion.

Articles by Dr. Steven Phillipson

Bottom-line: get yourself into therapy, preferably with someone who is familiar with OCD. They will help you cultivate the tools you need to battle your doubt. And do it yesterday. Okay?

 

[Christian-Catholic]

Raven , I understand you sometimes not wanting to prove the doubts wrong as these types of doubts which linger all day are exhausting. The fact that you want 100% proof of Gods existence is exactly why I feel these thoughts are ocd related. When OCD attacks at full blast, it will pick at a question that it can find that will keep you in a revolving door or questioning and researching, questioning and researching.
This is exactly what I go through at times and from your responses its something that you also seem to be going through.

IF a christian tells you that he has never had one single doubt he is probably lying to you, almost all have small doubts at somepoints in their life but like I said, the difference between them and ocd sufferers is that we cant just throw off these small doubts the same way because in us they become magnified a million fold, and if not recognized properly they become worse.

God is infinitly more wise then we ever could be, dont you think he understands what your going through. His nature is pure love, pure compassion, pure understanding.
You want Jesus, you love Jesus and no parlor trick ocd thoughts will ever make him let go of you. YOu are his forever. You had him at Yes lord

 

[raven1]

What I mean is say someone is split personality. One side mean one side good. When they are the good one they feel happy nice and think like a nice person
I am in dual mode my doubting side says God is not real. Why true to prove I don't believe
My other side is like oh my gosh I am not a believer and not saved. I can't know the real me there is no test I can take so I may not be saved,
Also how do I not freak about no afterlife my doubting side wants to come to terms with that but my other side says ahhh your doubting and not saved.

I also don't get irrational thoughts we can't know if God exists so how can we be irrational does that statement mean I am hellbound and the fact I look foward to the fact I get advice from athiest does this stuff mean I am not saved see it is like a split personality.

 

[Anonymous User_]

Raven,

Why don't you believe that you can have faith and doubt at the same time? Can you please elaborate? How else can we help you understand that doubt is the very ESSENCE of faith, not the lack of it? You cannot worry about what your mind is doing! You are so stuck on this! You have to work with us and trust that we are telling you the truth. You have to TRY not to worry about the doubts or feelings of terror of the afterlife. This will not come easily at all. This healing process for you will not only be an act of choosing to trust one thing, but also choosing NOT to THINK ABOUT another.

You can have a split personality for sure, but you cannot have a split soul. No matter how your mind and its processing are working at one moment, nothing can take away Raven's ability to CHOOSE Jesus.

I know it's hard to take our word for it, and that your record player is skipping, stuck on one track. But just saying "I still doubt and am scared" is not specific enough for us to help you any more than we are at the moment. Please elaborate as much as you can. Pictures that run through your head, what thought leads to what, where you are getting stuck, and exactly HOW our advice doesn't make sense or is NOT helping you. This will help us to understand you a little more and try and tailor the way that we're approaching your thoughts. But know that we will not be able to read your every thought, as each person's mind is their own, and each OCD sufferer weaves their own tangled web that others can't see. You are going to have to take a leap of faith and take trust that the advice that we are giving you is correct and attempt to follow it by ignoring your doubts. But of course you need to be able to understand our advice to at least the basic reach of it first, so we'll try to help you there.

By 'we', I mean anyone who has been instructing you to take the leap of faith and trust God despite your doubts. Hollyda is awesome!! It seems to me that she really, really knows what she's talking about. And I think both hers and my advice compliment each other, so I hope you'll trust the both of us.

Keep on keepin' on, Raven! There is a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[raven1]

I just feel like I only have one year to be saved. It acares me so many people predict 2012. I want to choose God and trust him but I am scared there is no afterlife but if I don't stop worrying Iam going to helL.

 

[cedward1]

Well, choosing Jesus is simple. It's a free gift, just accept it. God is not willing that any should perish. And with God nothing is impossible. Putting 2 and 2 together, we can see that God is willing and able to save you if you want to be saved. It's logical.

You have to stop looking at yourself or you will never have peace. That has been my problem (I still think my problem has been similar to yours, only from a different angle). Jesus said "look to me and be saved". That's it. Just look to Him to save you. Not your belief or lack of beleif. If you look at your own abilities, you are just like Peter when he was walking on water. Down you go, sinking in the sea of despair. In us there is nothing good. But in Jesus there is everything good. Just ask Him to save you, and know that He will, not because you earned it in any way but simply because He wants you to be saved.

And by the way, it was a fundamentalist who made me realize that. Beware of people who call themselves "fundamentalists" but are in actuality legalists who ignore the power and love of Christ.

 

[raven1]

What I am wondering is in some of my moments of doubt I freak out but sometimes I just stay in my doubt because I disbelieve does that mean I am not saved and when I do freak it is ONLY because of the fear of hell. This is not OCD.

 

[hollyda]

Have you made an appointment with a therapist yet?

 

[raven1]

No gonna call today. I mean at times I embrace the athiest view and at others Ifreak out I am not a Christian who is the real me since I can't blame it on OCD. If I am freaking about no afterlfe and 2012 it doesn't show trust but I am scared I can't push it away I have to deal.

 

[Anonymous User_]

I just feel like I only have one year to be saved. It acares me so many people predict 2012. I want to choose God and trust him but I am scared there is no afterlife but if I don't stop worrying Iam going to helL.

Of course you FEEL that way! You have OCD! What about the astronomy facts I shared with you?

Being courageous, Raven, is about doing things even when you're scared. While you're in the deepest depths of your OCD, I'm afraid there will be few times when you don't feel afraid for any significant period of time.