Pretribulational rapture or Post tribulation rapture?

[Douggg]

I brothers and sisters in Christ,Being a new Beliver,I always have this doubt?? Will there be a pretribulational or post tribulational or Mid tribulational Rapture,or no Rapture at all??Some people say there will be no rapture,Which is correct?? And plaease quote me from scriptures regarding this assertion,Which amongst is likely Going To occur,Some people say there will be no rapture,But Heavy Persecution happen and all christians will die and the wrath Of God will come on this unbelieving world,Which is more true,Please answer

The rapture is the translation of the living Christians at the time the resurrection of Christians who have died, their bodies to reunite with their souls, takes place.

1thessalonians 4:15-18, the rapture will definitely happen. The arguments begin over when.

Pre-trib, Post-trib, Mid-trib - those terms are actually misleading (misnomers) because what is implied is pre-70th week, ,mid-70th week, post-70th week.

The 70th week is a reference to the last week (of years) of the 70 weeks determined upon Israel and Jerusalem, in Daniel 9:27.

The 70th week is 7 years long. So pre-trib, for example, means before the 70th week, the 7 years begin. Which the term pre-trib(ulation) in actuality, by implying 7 years of tribulation, is flawed - because for nearly all of the first half of the 7 years - the world will be saying peace and safety - 1thessalonians5:1-3 - right before the Day of the Lord begins, which is when the time of troubles, big time, begin.

So for the first half of the 7 years would not be considered "tribulation".

Can the rapture happen before the 7 years begin? Yes. But the pre-trib view says it has to. Which, maybe not.

The other two views, similarly, have the same must happen - within the limits of those views - rigid positions.

I personally am "anytime" rapture view. I coined that phrase - based upon Luke 21:34-38, because of the word "anytime" in verses, and that the rapture is implied as the escape from all of the troubles that will come up on the world like a snare.

In the anytime rapture view, as it implies, the rapture can happen "anytime" between now and when it actually takes place.

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[BABerean2]

The 70th week is a reference to the last week (of years) of the 70 weeks determined upon Israel and Jerusalem, in Daniel 9:27.

From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.
Daniel 9:27

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.................................................................

Mat 10:5　 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:　
Mat 10:6　 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.　
Mat 10:7　 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.　


Gal 1:13　 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:　
Gal 1:14　 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.　
Gal 1:15　 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,　
Gal 1:16　 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:　
Gal 1:17　 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.　
Gal 1:18　 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

　

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

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[Bible2+]

kirthika said in post #1:

Pretribulational rapture or Post tribulation rapture?

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. Instead, the Bible shows Jesus Christ won't come and gather together (rapture) the Church until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the Church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' Second Coming and the physical resurrection of the Church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same Second Coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the Church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same Second Coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the Church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus Christ won't return and gather together (rapture) the Church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the Church, and the future Antichrist sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the Church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the Church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the Church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the Church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus Christ will judge everyone in the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the Church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the Church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as He defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the physically-resurrected and married obedient part of the Church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Douggg]

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

But the destruction of the temple and city happened 40 years, not less than 7 years, after the messiah was cutoff.

You have Jesus, as the prince who shall come from the people who destroys the temple and city in 70AD, as confirming the covenant with many for 7 years.

The huge flaw in your theory is that the temple and city are destroyed - then the prince who shall come from those people, arrives. Jesus was 40 years before the people destroyed the temple and city.

 

[BABerean2]

You have Jesus, as the prince who shall come from the people who destroys the temple and city in 70AD, as confirming the covenant with many for 7 years.

The huge flaw in your theory is that the temple and city are destroyed - then the prince who shall come from those people, arrives. Jesus was 40 years before the people destroyed the temple and city.

It is not "my theory".

It comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.
It was written hundreds of years before I was born.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:13-18, nobody can honestly deny that there was a period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

This was the 70th week of Daniel.

The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.
The same covenant "with many" is found in both verses.

This is confirmed by the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 in Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18.


.

 

[Douggg]

It is not "my theory".

It comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.
It was written hundreds of years before I was born.

The Geneva Bible is not from you. But the interpretation of the verses is a theory that you hold to.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:13-18, nobody can honestly deny that there was a period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

It is 7 years in Daniel 9:27, not about, almost, 7 years. Secondly, Galatians is Paul speaking about his own experience. The gospel was taken to the gentiles at the same time as it was taken to the Jews, as the disciples were told by Jesus after the resurrection to preach the gospel to nations. They started in Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean the gospel did not spread like wildfire immediately.

Luke 24:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

To them in Galatians, Paul spoke to, they were already Christians.

 

[BABerean2]

To them in Galatians, Paul spoke to, they were already Christians.

Yes.

Paul planted that church after the 3 years he spoke about in his testimony, which is found in Galatians chapter 1.

His letter to the Galatians was written well after that church was established.

The interpretation that I hold to was written in the notes of the Geneva Bible, hundreds of years before I was born. Therefore, it cannot be my interpretation.

.

 

[Douggg]

The interpretation that I hold to was written in the notes of the Geneva Bible, hundreds of years before I was born. Therefore, it cannot be my interpretation.

You didn't come up with it. But you hold to it.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[BABerean2]

You didn't come up with it. But you hold to it.

If you think the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible contain some strange doctrine, then you may need to spend a little time trying to understand how important that translation was in the history of the Church and the history of the United States.

.

 

[Bible2+]

kirthika said in post #1:

Some people say there will be no rapture . . .

Some people say that because the word "rapture" isn't in the Bible.

But note that just as it's okay to use the English word "Bible" even though it's not in the Bible, so it should be okay to use the English word "rapture" even though it's not in the Bible. Also, the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the Church's being "caught up" together to Jesus Christ at His future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the Church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at His Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea no rapture will occur at Jesus' Second Coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking Jesus' Second Coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the Church to hold a meeting in the sky with Him at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

kirthika said in post #1:

Some people say there will be no rapture,But Heavy Persecution happen and all christians will die . . .

Heavy persecution will happen (Matthew 24:9-13), but not all Christians will die.

For some in the Church will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming and the Church's rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Also, even all those in the Church who will die before or during the Tribulation will be in the rapture. For it will include all dead Christians of all times, right after they've been physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Bible2+]

vinsight4u said in post #32:

2 Thessalonians 2 shows that our gathering - which is the day of Christ is not today, nor tomorrow, but waits for the man of sin to be revealed.

That's right. For:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 ¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Here, "and that man of sin be revealed" refers to when an individual man will be revealed (that is, without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the Second Coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

vinsight4u said in post #32:

2 Thessalonians 2 shows that our gathering - which is the day of Christ is not today, nor tomorrow, but waits for the man of sin to be revealed.

Regarding "our gathering - which is the day of Christ", that's right in that the future Day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the Church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[jgr]

Here, "and that man of sin be revealed" refers to when an individual man will be revealed

The historic Church identified him.

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646)
"There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalts himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God." (1646 Westminster Confession of Faith)

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)
"The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ." (1689 Baptist Confession of Faith)

John Wesley (1703 - 1791)
"... In many respects, the Pope has an indisputable claim to those titles. He is, in an emphatical sense, the man of sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure.

Martin Luther (1483 - 1546)
"nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny." (Martin Luther, First Principles, pp. 196-197)

John Knox (1505 - 1572)
Yea, to speak it in plain words; lest that we submit ourselves to Satan, thinking that we submit ourselves to Jesus Christ, for, as for your Roman kirk, as it is now corrupted, and the authority thereof, whereon stands the hope of your victory, I no more doubt but that it is the synagogue of Satan, and the head thereof, called the pope, to be that man of sin, of whom the apostle speaks." (John Knox, The History of the Reformation of Religion in Scotland, p.65)

Charles Spurgeon (1834 - 1892)
"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. If there were to be issued a hue and cry for Antichrist, we should certainly take up this church on suspicion, and it would certainly not be let loose again, for it so exactly answers the description."

"Popery is contrary to Christ’s Gospel, and is the Antichrist, and we ought to pray against it. It should be the daily prayer of every believer that Antichrist might be hurled like a millstone into the flood and for Christ, because it wounds Christ, because it robs Christ of His glory, because it puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread into the place of the Saviour, and a few drops of water into the place of the Holy Ghost, and puts a mere fallible man like ourselves up as the vicar of Christ on earth; if we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors: we shall love their souls though we loath and detest their dogmas, and so the breath of our prayers will be sweetened, because we turn our faces towards Christ when we pray." (Michael de Semlyen, All Roads Lead to Rome)

John Calvin (1509 - 1564)
"Though it be admitted that Rome was once the mother of all Churches, yet from the time when it began to be the seat of Antichrist it has ceased to be what it was before. Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman Pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt .. I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol.3, p.149)

 

[Bible2+]

jgr said in post #35:

The historic Church identified him.

Note that it didn't, because if it had, then the rapture, which will be immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), would have occurred long ago. But it didn't, just as the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 hasn't even started yet.

Also, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Catholicism in its past and current form, insofar as Catholicism affirms Jesus is the Christ, while the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Catholicism affirms Jesus is the Son of God, while the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b). And Catholicism affirms Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Catholicism affirms the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms the only man who is God is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, while the Antichrist will say he (the Antichrist) is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms Lucifer (Satan) is evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his future, 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Catholicism in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), could at first pretend to support Catholicism (as well as Christianity generally, and also Islam), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

--

The beast which comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Aren't we all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but have only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in 2 religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the 2 horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say he is Jesus Himself returned (via reincarnation). But he won't say he's Christ. For the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ, and will deny Christ is in the flesh (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

 

[jgr]

Note that it didn't, because if it had, then the rapture, which will be immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), would have occurred long ago. But it didn't, just as the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 hasn't even started yet.

Also, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Catholicism in its past and current form, insofar as Catholicism affirms Jesus is the Christ, while the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Catholicism affirms Jesus is the Son of God, while the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b). And Catholicism affirms Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Catholicism affirms the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms the only man who is God is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, while the Antichrist will say he (the Antichrist) is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms Lucifer (Satan) is evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his future, 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Catholicism in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), could at first pretend to support Catholicism (as well as Christianity generally, and also Islam), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

--

The beast which comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Aren't we all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but have only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in 2 religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the 2 horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say he is Jesus Himself returned (via reincarnation). But he won't say he's Christ. For the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ, and will deny Christ is in the flesh (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

Note that a speculative futurized antichrist is the product of the apostate papacy's counter-reformation of the 16th century, which sought to distract from the Protestant Reformation's recognition of that papacy as the true antichrist of Scripture. The Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera was responsible for the origination of the counterfeit doctrine, and is recognized as the "father" of futurism. Former Catholic priest Joseph Zacchello, says: “The Jesuits, a militant order of priests... were the first ones to introduce a new theory in order to divert men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the antichrist in the papal church. The Jesuit Ribera brought out the futuristic system, which asserts that the antichrist is yet to appear. Protestants who advocate the futuristic system are pleasing the pope and are playing into the hands of Rome.” The Reformers recognized the fulfillments of antichrist in the prophecies in Daniel, Thessalonians, John's epistles, and Revelation. The Reformers' faith and sacrifice broke the spiritual shackles of apostasy which had bound much of Europe, and enabled the light of the Gospel to shine once again. Absent the Reformation, these very forums would not exist.

 

[Bible2+]

jgr said in post #37:

Note that a speculative futurized antichrist is the product of the apostate papacy's counter-reformation of the 16th century, which sought to distract from the Protestant Reformation's recognition of that papacy as the true antichrist of Scripture.

Note that no speculation is required to know the Biblical truth that the man commonly called the Antichrist will be the fulfillment of the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will fulfill the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

Any mistaken teaching which claims the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.

jgr said in post #37:

The Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera was responsible for the origination of the counterfeit doctrine, and is recognized as the "father" of futurism.

Note that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are still future to us because they're about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' Christ's Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

Also, why does partial preterism believe in a future Second Coming, but not a future Tribulation, when:

1. The Second Coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the Church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

2. The Second Coming and rapture can't occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

3. At Jesus' Second Coming to rapture and marry the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

Partial preterism might answer: "It's obvious the Second Coming hasn't happened yet". And that's right. But full preterism nonetheless still mistakenly claims the Second Coming, resurrection and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it's only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to mistakenly claim all the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting the Second Coming, resurrection of the Church and rapture haven't occurred yet, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 haven't occurred yet either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I brothers and sisters in Christ,Being a new Beliver,I always have this doubt?? Will there be a pretribulational or post tribulational or Mid tribulational Rapture,or no Rapture at all??Some people say there will be no rapture,Which is correct?? And plaease quote me from scriptures regarding this assertion,Which amongst is likely Going To occur,Some people say there will be no rapture,But Heavy Persecution happen and all christians will die and the wrath Of God will come on this unbelieving world,Which is more true,Please answer

I do not know.

This is okay to say and to take as a stance, though in these terms, it is radical.

"I do not know".

If you post a question about a car problem on a car forum, the person who says "I do not know" is the one you can ignore. Why even would they post?

But, for these matters? Personally, I have not found either stance, nor any of the major stances sure. Some elements of them, I believe, however, are correct, regardless.


Many say they know. I have looked deeply into their claims, and come away unconvinced. I believe the angels do not know. I believe even the Son does not know.

As Jesus stated.


There are great things in Revelation to be found. And great observations to be made. For instance, note how the 'one like a son of man' ultimately turns out to be an angel, yet speaks and appears as Jesus in the first person. John would know. John saw Jesus transfigured into 'one like a son of man' on the mount of olives.

...

And consider how there is Christ consciousness shown in the church, merely by the voice appearing as "many from many nations". Saying what? Saying "I am the Alpha and Omega..." Those would be regular human beings all being in some state of unity in God and Christ, to say such a thing.

That is truly amazing and so very strange.

I can point out that the often refrain "to the one who has an ear to hear", is interspersed through scripture, and speaks of "to the one who overcomes". Overcomes is synomonous with the very word "Israel". So, this ties into Jacob's struggle with "God and man"...

And so on.

But, where are we? How long do various periods literally last? Are we near the point before the Millennium where Satan comes with the nations against the people of God? Or, as the Catholics officially believe, as do others, at the end of the thousand years, where Satan comes with the nations against the people of God?

I do not know.

I certainly do believe Jesus can appear at anytime. Certainly to catch us by surprise. To catch the whole world by surprise. As Jesus said He would. As we who have the Spirit who testifies to this, knows He will.

We should certainly apply Revelation and related verses to events of today, seeing if anything fits. We are blessed for keeping the word of Revelation. But there is a dire curse for adding or taking away from it. Some argue this means to anything in the Bible. This certainly, even by common sense level, is also true. But it is true specifically with this book.

I do believe God always gives us a chance for repentance and forgiveness, however, so we will have an opportunity to change our minds about our erroneous beliefs on Revelation.

Now, can "wrath" or tribulation happen to earth while Christians are here? Of course. I just survived a hurricane. (I am either in Florida or Houston.) Khmer Rouge? Anyone? The Holocaust? Rwanda? The Middle Ages? And so on, and so on?

Theories are fine, except if we try and make them out to be more then simply theories.

Revelation is true, as is easy to see, for any honest person. So were the visions Daniel recounted, dreams and visions. But, no one knew what those meant specifically until they came to pass. Only in retrospect can we now see how dead straight on Daniel was.

 

[jgr]

Note that no speculation is required to know the Biblical truth that the man commonly called the Antichrist will be the fulfillment of the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will fulfill the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

Any mistaken teaching which claims the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.



Note that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are still future to us because they're about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' Christ's Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

Also, why does partial preterism believe in a future Second Coming, but not a future Tribulation, when:

1. The Second Coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the Church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

2. The Second Coming and rapture can't occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

3. At Jesus' Second Coming to rapture and marry the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

Partial preterism might answer: "It's obvious the Second Coming hasn't happened yet". And that's right. But full preterism nonetheless still mistakenly claims the Second Coming, resurrection and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it's only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to mistakenly claim all the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting the Second Coming, resurrection of the Church and rapture haven't occurred yet, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 haven't occurred yet either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?

Note that with the benefit of 20/20+ hindsight and insight, the Reformers recognized the fulfillments of the associated prophecies in the more than 1000 years of historical papal rule, as well as what they directly observed and experienced in its final more than 200 years. There was no rationale in seeking future fulfillments when the historical fulfillments were self-evident. As there was no rationale then, there is no rationale now. The Reformers recognized the man of sin as the papacy which had implanted itself in the spiritual temple of the Church and usurped spiritual authority therein (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). The papacy's title of VICARIVS FILII DEI contains the sum of 666 in its numerals. Daniel 11:36 refers to Antiochus Epiphanes. There is no relationship with Daniel 7:25. The time period in Daniel 7:25 is 1260 years, corresponding to the papacy's reign from 538 to 1798 AD. Daniel 7's descriptions of the little horn representing the papacy are essentially repeated in Revelation 13. All prophecies as recognized by the Reformers in the associated Scriptures have been fulfilled. The papacy continues to this day; there is no claim that it has come and gone, and every possibility that its role in any associated still unfulfilled prophecy will continue until Christ returns. Satan has been bound by Christ since His first coming, and will continue to be until His second, for an indeterminate period whose symbolic duration is 1000 years (2 Peter 3:8, Psalms 90:4). The tribulation of Matthew 24 and any associated parallel prophecies have been almost completely fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea in the events predicted by Jesus and confirmed historically by Josephus. Matthew 24:29-31 employs an apocalyptic allegorical idiom used to describe fulfillments elsewhere in Scripture (Psalms 18, Isaiah 13, Isaiah 34, Joel 2), and has likewise been fulfilled. Beginning with Scripture's first prophecy in Genesis 3:15, the Bible contains much allegory and allegorical prophecy to accompany its literal passages. The same is true of the book of Revelation, and claims of predominant literality are unsupportable based on the characteristics in the whole of other Scripture. The historicism of the Reformers, with its accuracy in recognizing historical prophetic fulfillment, comes closest to achieving a view of Revelation which is consistent across all Scripture.


Futurism fantasizes. History realizes.