Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

[Biblewriter]

Such as Christ?

Luke 13
31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

This was not said in the third year before Jesus went to the cross, but on the thIrd day before He went to the cross.

 

[jgr]

This was not said in the third year before Jesus went to the cross, but on the thIrd day before He went to the cross.

Jesus declared this in the first year (day), and in the third year (day) He went to the cross; consistent with His approximately three years of ministry.

 

[Northwest Savant]

Can you post a link where a Pretribber predicted that before it happened?

My church had a guest speaker that was born in Eygpt, and immigrated to America and became a Christian. I remember the speaker was fluent in arabic, and translated the Qur'an. The one thing that interested me the most was that Allah in Qur'an 1:2 is called the lord of the worlds. Likewise, in the Bible, satan is called god of this world (John 12:35, 2 Cor 4:4) and of the under world (Rev 9:11).

I also remember reading some where about the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 - And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. I read that the most abominable thing that could happen to Israel would be if the holiest site in Judaism, the Temple Mount, would have a temple erected for the worship of satan.

Following the Siege of Jerusalem in 637 A.D. by the Muslim conquest, construction began in 689 for the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount.

Then in Dan 12:7 - And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
And in
Rev 12:14 - And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

After the Dome of the Rock was built, the Muslims that conquered Jerusalem made the Jewish people flee to all parts of the world.

I copied this from the internet (you can copy and paste in Google to see the webpage for yourself):
Returning to the 3 1/2 times, which we now know represents 3 1/2 lunar years of 360 days each, using the same methodology as is used for the 70 weeks of Daniel we calculate it to actually represent 1260 literal years. So, Time, Times and half a Time in prophecy is really 1260 years! To confirm this formula we need only to look to the 12th chapter of the book of Revelation-Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

So if you start at 689 A.D. and add 1260 years, you get 1949 A.D. The nation of Israel completed their fight for independence in 1949 (not 1948) and 1949 was the year the United States Congress gave 'official recognition' & 1949 was the year of the armistice agreement for Israel ending the war. The woman that fled into the wilderness was Israel, and after fleeing from the serpent for time, and times, and half a time, Israel is back exactly in the same year.

Don't know how accurate it is, but it is a prediction that happened.

 

[Biblewriter]

Jesus declared this in the first year (day), and in the third year (day) He went to the cross; consistent with His approximately three years of ministry.

Where did you get that idea?

 

[iamlamad]

Israel became a nation.

Ha ha! Excellent answer!

 

[iamlamad]

I am talking about where a pretribber takes a symbolic prophecy and creates the "details" before it occurs.

There is enough written in the Word of God about the pretrib rapture so that there is no need to make up things. And people that set dates have missed the point that not even Jesus knows the exact moment in time when the Father will say it is time.

 

[JacksBratt]

Noah was protected through the flood.. He did not leave earth.. Just as in the end times some Christians will be protected through the tribulation on earth so as to witness the judgement upon those who persecuted them.. And yes escapist doctrines are bad when they give false hope and are a decption..

Psalms 91: KJV
2 "I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. {3} Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. {4} He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. {5} Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; {6} Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. {7} A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. {8} Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. {9} Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; {10} There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. {11} For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. {12} They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

You say "some Christians" will be protected. What about the rest of the 2.2 billion people who are children of Christ... His sheep?


I understand, Christ could, somehow, protect us from the carnage. However, the action of the coming one world government will be directly against anyone claiming Christs rightful glory, honor, worship and kingship. How do you hide or protect 30% of the population?

 

[JacksBratt]

I believe the Anti-christ will be a great deceiver and that most of the supposed Christians you talk of will consider the anti-christ to be the promised returned Lord Jesus.. Don't you know that He will claim to be God and his image will be worshiped... Who believes that Jesus is God and who believes Jesus should be worshiped.... That's right Christians... And how many Christians are well read in the Bible?? How many know the book of Revelations and the Book of Daniel by heart?? One percent of one percent.. Maybe... Most Christians are not Bible believing Christians and most Christians do not even understand the Atonement Of Jesus anyway.. Most supposed Christians are works salvation religionists that do not believe that they are saved by the gift of the atonement of Jesus... So the great deception i believe will be the anti-christ fooling millions into believing He is the Messiah.. And what Jesus said will come true again::

John 16: KJV
1 "These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. {2} They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

So, let me get this right, people, who have accepted Christ and repented of their sins, putting their faith in Him, for salvation..... will be deceived and fall to the whiles of the anti Christ?

So what of this:

John 10:28-30King James Version (KJV)

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


30 I and my Father are one.

Was Christ lying? Should we now worry that loved ones who are Christians will be tricked and lose their salvation? After all their acceptance of who Christ is, by faith, they will end up without eternal life?

 

[JacksBratt]

Actually, I am also a pretribber. So let's get that point cleared up first. I said that I was saddened by the irresponsible wah may pretribbers had treated the scriptures, because that detracts from the truth of what I teach. But if you go back and look, you will see that I also stated that my real complaint with them was that they had t=reated the scriptures as irresponsibly as others do.

I have devoted well over fifty years to the study of the scriptures, and the bulk of that has been in regard to the prophetic scriptures. I have also devoted literally decades to the study of ancient history, including about ten yeas specifically devoted to the study of the histories of the development of various doctrines. So I speak assuredly when I speak of these things, for I am not stating ideas I picked up from some modern writer, but conclusions I have personally reached fro an actual study of original sources. That is, I have not studied ABOUT the histories of peoples and ideas, but have rather actually studied what these people wrote.

Well, that is admirable, that you have studied as diligently.

I just find it abrasive when someone groups all the people of a certain belief together and then claims that the entire group believes other errors of unrelated issues.

You cannot say "all pretribbers believe" X or Y or Z.

The only thing you can say that ALL pretribbers believe IS that the rapture comes PRE TRIBULATION....... period.

The rest is assumption and putting words in peoples mouths when they have not stated them.

Maybe it would be better to say "I dislike it when people say X or Y or Z when speaking of the end times... and leave the whole "pretribber" handle off of the people you are targeting.

 

[JacksBratt]

And you don't think the Anti-christ is well able to use scriptures which is symbolized by the modern church to get people to take the Mark of the beast while thinking they are actually receiving the seal of God in their foreheads ???

Revelation 7: KJV
2 "And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, {3} Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

You can be assured the anti- christ will tell Christians that the mark of the beast is the Seal of God that they are receiving in their foreheads..

Again...........Christians being deceived and falling for the antics of the anti Christ would contradict the fact that Christ will not let any man take us from His hand.
Also:
1 John:5:13
“These things have I written unto you that believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW, [that’s present knowledge] that you HAVE [present possession] eternal life.

 

[JacksBratt]

Think of the tens of thousands of Christians who died in the first centuries in the cruel entertainment in Colosseum's of the roman empire .. How they where slaughtered in the most cruel ways for the entertainment of the roman unbelievers.. Some being eaten by lions and other wild beasts for sport.. Was Jesus their Savior? Yes you can be assured He is.. And the Christians who where burned to death at the steak by the inquisitors in the dark ages, was Jesus their Savior also? Yes indeed He was and is.. And the Christians in the present time in Syria and Iraq who where machined gunned into ditches or slowly had their heads hacked of by devout muslim jihadists,is Jesus their Savior??? Yes indeed He is...

Your argument comes from human thinking.. But history time and time again reveals that your human thinking is faulty.. Jesus said::

John 16:KJV
33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Yes in this world we shall have tribulation...

I don't think you are realizing the vast difference between the persecution that man's inhumanity to man has created in the different times of history......

with...

The coming time of Satan's literal reign on this earth.

Yes, there has been times where people were killed for their belief in God or Christ.

Never has there been a time where your possible chance of salvation is totally and utterly relinquished if you take a mark.

People of those days could denounce their faith.... later repent and still be forgiven. Like Peter.

Chose the mark of the beast, however, and there is no turning back, no chance for future redemption or future change of heart.

The time of the Tribulation will not parallel any other time in history. To compare them is to show that you do not grasp the magnitude or permanency of this time frame of 7 years of history.

This is world wide, high tech, routing out every Christian by tactics that will make it impossible to work, eat, buy, sell, live, travel, move, hide or run away from the choice between Christ or Satan. Not the simple persecution of small pockets as in the past.

 

[iamlamad]

You say "some Christians" will be protected. What about the rest of the 2.2 billion people who are children of Christ... His sheep?


I understand, Christ could, somehow, protect us from the carnage. However, the action of the coming one world government will be directly against anyone claiming Christs rightful glory, honor, worship and kingship. How do you hide or protect 30% of the population?

Good point: especially when God's word for this particular time is that the saints will be OVERCOME.

 

[jgr]

Where did you get that idea?

I don't understand your idea. Please elaborate.


Ezekiel 4.6b
"...I have appointed thee each day for a year."

Revelation 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

42 months = 3 1/2 years = 1260 days = 1260 years

Roman papacy = 538 AD to 1798 AD

Day/year correspondence recognized by the Reformers et al.

 

[LastSeven]

 

[LastSeven]

Don't know how accurate it is, but it is a prediction that happened.

Only if you're understanding Revelation 12 correctly, which I'm not sure you are.

 

[Douggg]

Again...........Christians being deceived and falling for the antics of the anti Christ would contradict the fact that Christ will not let any man take us from His hand.
Also:
1 John:5:13
“These things have I written unto you that believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW, [that’s present knowledge] that you HAVE [present possession] eternal life.

Hi JacksBratt, I don't think the issue is Jesus's ability to hold us tight. But would you not agree that there have been some who have left Christianity for other belief systems, such as, Islam which itself is Antichrist in nature, and became muslims?

I was listening to Tovia Singer on You Tube. He is a Jewish (Judaism) countermissionary - their word for counter Christian missionary - to keep Jews from becoming Christians, and those who are already Christians to leave and rejoin Judaism.

Anyway, he was saying Christianity will simply dissolve when the "real" messiah (the Antichrist) starts fulfilling their expectations of the messiah, one by one.

So if we take what Tovia says and apply it to the falling away in 2thessalonians2:3-4, it is not unreasonable, imo, to think for the first 3 years or so, as the person plays the role of the messiah, anointed the King of israel (as that is what "the" messiah actual refers to in biblical backdrop) - that there will be many in Christianity to will turn from Jesus, thinking the Jews were right all along, and go the Noahide route as one option, or just claim to believe in God, but not in Jesus.

So I think we might want to look at Hebrews 6:4-6.

 

[JacksBratt]

Hi JacksBratt, I don't think the issue is Jesus's ability to hold us tight. But would you not agree that there have been some who have left Christianity for other belief systems, such as, Islam which itself is Antichrist in nature, and became muslims?

I was listening to Tovia Singer on You Tube. He is a Jewish (Judaism) countermissionary - their word for counter Christian missionary - to keep Jews from becoming Christians, and those who are already Christians to leave and rejoin Judaism.

Anyway, he was saying Christianity will simply dissolve when the "real" messiah (the Antichrist) starts fulfilling their expectations of the messiah, one by one.

So if we take what Tovia says and apply it to the falling away in 2thessalonians2:3-4, it is not unreasonable, imo, to think for the first 3 years or so, as the person plays the role of the messiah, anointed the King of israel (as that is what "the" messiah actual refers to in biblical backdrop) - that there will be many in Christianity to will turn from Jesus, thinking the Jews were right all along, and go the Noahide route as one option, or just claim to believe in God, but not in Jesus.

So I think we might want to look at Hebrews 6:4-6.

I do think that Christ could cloak us or protect us some how. I just don't see any scripture to support such an event other than the Rapture.

 

[Biblewriter]

Well, that is admirable, that you have studied as diligently.

I just find it abrasive when someone groups all the people of a certain belief together and then claims that the entire group believes other errors of unrelated issues.

You cannot say "all pretribbers believe" X or Y or Z.

The only thing you can say that ALL pretribbers believe IS that the rapture comes PRE TRIBULATION....... period.

The rest is assumption and putting words in peoples mouths when they have not stated them.

Maybe it would be better to say "I dislike it when people say X or Y or Z when speaking of the end times... and leave the whole "pretribber" handle off of the people you are targeting.

You still haven't carefully read what I posted. I did not say all people of any group said anything. I said "many" pretribbers have treated the scriptures irresponsibly. And this is unquestionably correct. I am saddened by this because I am a pretribber, and this makes my work more difficult.

 

[JacksBratt]

You still haven't carefully read what I posted. I did not say all people of any group said anything. I said "many" pretribbers have treated the scriptures irresponsibly. And this is unquestionably correct. I am saddened by this because I am a pretribber, and this makes my work more difficult.

Oh, I understood you.

I could say "many... of any theological persuasion......have treated the scriptures irresponsibly" and my statement would still not have any foundation.

My point is that you cannot say many people of any theological view say things, believe things or assume things that do not pertain to the basic foundation of their belief. You are stereotyping.

Like I said.... the only thing you can say about all pretribbers is..........they believe the church will be removed before the tribulation.

Anything outside of that cannot be held as a collective view.

 

[Biblewriter]

It is hardly stereotyping to say that many of my own group are irresponsible in their handling of the scriptures. Actually there are very few, if any, groups for which that statement would not be 100% accurate.