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Featured Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Yahchristian, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    So pretribbers think the Tribulation saints will not have the Holy Spirit (the Comforter) indwelling them, and the Tribulation saints cannot be comforted with these words (which refer to a past event)...

    1 Thessalonians 4:15-18... For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Instead, they will be busy offering animal sacrifices.


    P.S.

    Whereas I believe since Calvary, no more sacrifices need to be offered, and every believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit and can be comforted by the words of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  2. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    There are 3 scriptural facts that concern the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which once these 3 things are known, there is no more confusion about this subject.


    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


    1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.
    • And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16
    2.] Just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture will occur at the coming of the Lord, whereby both the living and dead in Christ, will be caught up together to be with the Lord in the air.
    • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17
    3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.


    • Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

    ...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


    The 3 major things that occur at His coming:

    1. The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
    2. The Rapture.
    3. The destruction of the antichrist.

    Once each person comes to understand these three major truths that occur at His coming, there will be no more confusion about this doctrine.



    JLB
     
  3. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Well, firstly, your argument is not to the fact of the matter, which is......does the rapture take the Christians out of the tribulation.....

    Your argument is to the details of the scripture, their context in regards to the number and organizing of the "Horns" of the biblical accounts.

    So, in fact, you are disputing the comings and goings, joining and leaving of the members of the EU and considering these to be the components of the truths of revelation.

    You are not, in any way, proving that, some day, the church will be removed, along with the Holy Spirit, before the tribulation period.


    It was a nice attempt at slamming your brothers in Christ. However, you are just showing that you believe the EU to be the 10 horns....... Maybe you are in error here.
     
  4. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    I am sorry if I misled you, but...

    I do not believe the EU to be the 10 horns or that the Holy Spirit will be removed.

    I agree with the basic view of the Reformers that the 10 horns are in the past, as presented in this chart...


    [​IMG]
     
  5. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    This could be correct. All believers before the rapture are judged by Christ as His Bride. Those who are saved during the seven years, due to not being saved pre rapture, will face the white throne judgement, as their time of reckoning. Only these new believers will be given salvation at the white throne. All others, which will be every unbeliever from the beginning to the end, will face the second death.

    Pay close attention to where we meet Him.......In the air.

    He does not come to earth at this time. We are removed from the hell on earth that is to come. We then are judged, are given our crowns and rewards, have the marriage of the Lamb and His bride, the Marriage feast and then return with Our savior at the end of the tribulation.

    Unless you think we do all of this in "the twinkling of an eye" and then do a quick "U" turn back down to fight Armageddon.

    Sheesh, how many believers would be left after 7 years of a full on global purge of believers. Think of it, 7 years of a similar event of the Holocaust, only world wide against every believer, easily tracked with today's technology and the "mark" of the beast.......AND fully endorsed by every human who is not a believer....... The holocaust lasted as long as it did and the people in the neighborhoods around the camps were unaware it was happening. This will be full out, full blown, fully endorsed by every person,..... hate against the Christians with government support from all countries.


    And we should comfort one another with the fact that we will go through these times?

    I agree, until the "one who restrains" is taken...

    2 Thessalonians 2:6-17st Century King James Version (KJ21)

    6 And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time.


    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth back will hold him back, until he is taken out of the way.


    8 And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming—


    From....https://www.jashow.org/articles/pro...hat-is-the-“restrainer”-in-2-thessalonians-2/

    If the restrainer can be described both in neuter and masculine ways and must have sufficient supernatural power to restrain the Satanic mystery of lawlessness, the Holy Spirit is the only person who fits all of these characteristics and is the best possible identity of the restrainer.

    And

    Hebrews 13:5King James Version (KJV)

    5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.



    John 14:16King James Version (KJV)

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


    John 14:26King James Version (KJV)

    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


    So, if Christ will never leave us or forsake us, sends the comforter to be with us forever, the comforter is the Holy Ghost..... How then can "the one who restrains" also the Holy Spirit, be removed from the earth before the church?

    Also, How could the evil that is to come ever function if the Holy Spirit was still here with us?


     
  6. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    I'm not sure who the 10 horns are, or, may be in the future. I am sure that the church will not be and cannot be here during the reign of the anti Christ.
     
  7. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    It can't because...

    Everyone who comes to faith in Jesus has the Holy Spirit (the Comforter) abiding in them.

    Do you agree?

    Or do you think the Father's prayer did not include those who come to faith in Jesus during the Tribulation?

    John 14:16... And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
     
  8. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    According to the Pretribbers, immediately after the Rapture, there are no saints on the Earth, and the Holy Spirit is not here to indwell anyone.

    So who are the saints in this verse...

    Daniel 7:21... I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

    Do pretribbers think the saints in that verse refers to the un-believing Jews?

    Because pretribbers normally say the Jews only get saved en masse at the Second Coming.
     
  9. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Do you also believe one of the sources for Paul concerning the rapture, Isaiah 26:19-21, which places the time of rapture prior to the time of the tribulation?
     
  10. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Well, I don't think that those who are saved after the tribulation are saved by Faith in Christ.

    If they are not deceived by the "great or strong delusion" they will be very rare. Those that thought they knew Christ, or were given the chance an denied Him, will be deceived.

    The beginning of the tribulation is the end of the age of grace. Those living on the earth afterward do not have the same options as we do.
     
  11. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    Wow!

    That is why I am not a Dispensationalist.

    So how do you think those people will get saved if not by faith in Christ?

    P.S. I guess all those Left Behind movies even get that wrong, because they always have people getting saved by believing in Christ.
     
  12. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    There will be people saved in the tribulation. The fact is that there will not be 2.2 billion people here for the anti Christ to deal with. All that prayer, the holy spirit, the whole "I will not leave you" The Holy spirit, and the church, MUST be absent.. 2.2 billion......think of that. And that's in 2010. Seven years ago.
     
  13. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Once you "know" something, it is no longer faith to believe in it..

    Pittsburgh Penguin Hockey fans had faith in their team to win the Stanley Cup. People converted to be fans of that team, today, don't have faith in them winning the cup.... they just one it.... the new fans "know" that they are the champions.

    You cannot be saved by faith in the words of Christ when the words have been made fact. So, they cannot be saved by faith... they will be saved by another righteous method of God that will be just. Just as the ones that never heard or were in times before Christ, are held "without excuse".

    We have to understand, the age we live in is just one age... the age of Grace. From resurrection to tribulation.



    Satan believes in Christ... he needs no faith.

    Believing, now, today, for us, is an act of faith. After the Rapture and all is known... you will not be believing by faith. You will KNOW.
     
  14. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    Yes, I believe the rapture precedes the tribulation mentioned Isaiah 26 and Revelation 19.

    I believe the coming/rapture/tribulation mentioned in Isaiah 26:21 and the one mentioned in Revelation 19:15 are the same.

    Whereas I assume you think they are not. Correct?

    Isaiah 26:21... For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    Revelation 19:15... And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    P.S. The tribulation mentioned in Isaiah 26:21 and Revelation 19:15 is against the wicked, whereas the tribulation mentioned in Daniel 7:21 and Revelation 13:7 is against the righteous.
     
  15. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    I would put the Rev 19:15 event with the Isaiah 63:1-6 event. It's not the trib as a whole, or the time of Jacob's Trouble, but rather a singular event within that timeframe. It is whan Jesus returns and commences to slaughter the wicked Himself.
     
  16. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    What about Isaiah 26 (which is the passage you mentioned first)...

    It seems you believe the coming/rapture/tribulation mentioned in Isaiah 26:21 and the one mentioned in Revelation 19:15 are not same. Correct?

    Whereas I believe they are the same tribulation against the wicked.

    Isaiah 26:21... For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    Revelation 19:15... And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    Do you think one of those is the same tribulation as the one mentioned in Daniel 7:21?

    I do not. The tribulation in Daniel 7 is against the righteous, whereas the tribulation in the other passages is against the wicked.

    Daniel 7:21... I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
     
  17. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Again, I'm talking events attributed to the trib timeframe. Of course, the fury of God in Isaiah 26 is the same tribulation defined within Revelation. Whereas, Isaiah 26 is an event right prior to the trib, while the Rev 19 verse you mentioned would be an event at or near the end.
     
  18. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    Pretribbers normally end Daniel's 70th week precisely at the second coming of Jesus in Revelation 19:11-14.

    Don't you think the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 19:15 occurs after Daniel's 70th week (not at or near the end)?

    In other words...

    I think you believe the tribulation mentioned in Isaiah 26:21 occurs shortly after the Rapture, and you believe the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 19:15 occurs shortly after the Second Coming. Correct?
     
  19. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 19 is probably at or near the end of the 1260 days described in Daniel 2, since it's after that time he sets up His kingdom. That event wouldn't be after the 2nd coming, it's a part of the 2nd coming.
     
  20. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    Pretribbers normally claim that the 69th week ended precisely on the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem.

    Are you saying that you don't think the 70th week ends precisely when Jesus returns in Revelation 19:14?

    (Note: If the 70th week ends in Revelation 19:14, that would mean Revelation 19:15 onward occurs after the 70th week.)

    Revelation 19:14... And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
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