• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Preterists - I hate to do this...but

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ScottP, May 23, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ScottP

    ScottP New Member

    23
    +0
    Ok, when I came here I was naive about futurism and preterism. I saw mention of planetpreterism.com and went to take a look. Now remember I came to this site completely neutral and I can't see how any logical person could beleive that stuff.

    Here is a quote from the site:
    WHAT?!?!? All Christ's enemies conquered? We are in the garden of Eden? Maybe you haven't been keeping up on current events but evil is very much alive and kicking on this planet. Satanic churches, blasphemers everywhere, and more abominations than can be counted. If this is Christ's kingdom, where do YOU go when you die? If Revelation is the "End Time" prophesy and it already happened why do we still have time? Has there ever been a time when people had to have a "Mark" to buy or sell goods?

    Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this is going to happen tomorrow or even soon, but I simply can't see how anyone can say it already happened and that the world we live in now is bliss.

    Please explain this to me.


    Scott



    If you can explain it please help.

    EDIT: Closed the quote so it appeared properly.
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Scott, I would be happy to answer some of your questions, from my own perspective, with my current understanding of the Scripture.

    1. All Christ's enemies conquered?
    Yes, who are Christ's enemies? Satan, death...demons maybe? You don't believe they have been conquered through His sacrifice? Christ's blood is continually cleaning us of our sins, making spiritual death and separation from God irrelevant, thus death is defeated. To use your own words, "I can't see how any logical person could beleive that stuff" I would be pretty miserable as a Christian if I would not be convinced that sin, and Satan have been defeated by Christ...in fact I doubt that I would even be a christian.

    2. There isn't one place anywhere in the Bible that says that "evil" will ever completely dissapear. Evil is a result of sin. At the end of Revelation, AFTER the return of Christ, and in the New Heaven and Earth, you can actually read that sin and wickedness still exists, despite your expectations: Rev 21:27. Furthermore, in Revelation 22:2, you can read that there is a tree that is there for "the healing of the nations". If you expect this upcoming new heaven and earth to be so perfect, why is there a need for healing?

    3. When I die, I will go directly into Christ's presence. Unfortunately, as a futurist, you are unable to say that, because Christ did not return, thus heaven is not ready, and you have not yet been judged, so you can't go to heaven when you die...you will go to Hades, the waiting place, where Lazarus and the rich guy went. That stinks...hehe :)

    4. Yes, Revelation is a prophecy about the time of the end, not the end of time. The Bible never talks about the "end of time", so again, you are simply speaking out of lack of knowledge of eschatology. I wrote an in-depth, article that clearly demonstrates that time will never end. Click here to read it

    After your questions, you are saying, "I simply can't see how anyone can say it already happened and that the world we live in now is bliss."

    When did anyone claim that this world is bliss? The physical world is not bliss....because Christ did not come to fix the physical. He said "My Kingdom is not of this world", yet despite that clear statement, you expect Christ to come and physically sit on an actual chair as a King in Jerusalem. How ironic...and WE are illogical?

    Christ came to fix the larger problem of humanity, SIN. Sin causes spiritual death, and separation from God. That problem was resolved, thus Christ's mission is accomplished. You don't resolve spiritual problems with physical solutions. Christ returning on a physical cloud and sitting on David's chair in Jerusalem will not bring one single extra soul to Him...

    Now that I answered your questions, feel free to answer mine...why is there a tree used for healing in Revelation 22? :)
     
  3. ScottP

    ScottP New Member

    23
    +0
    So let me get this straight. Preterists beleive that the book of revelation has already happened?

    This never happened. I don't know about you, but I still have grass in my yard.

    When did this happen?

    I don't remember any verse stating that this happened either. If any of this has happened already please enlighten me.

    Oh and my original question still stands:
    This is still to come and probably sooner than you think. The world is already moving more toward an all electronic payment system using the internet, credit cards, etc. Work is already being done to use an implanted microchip to "mark" you to your medical records, bank accounts and other personal info. Nowhere in history has the world been closer to fulfilling the following prophesy:

    Scott
     
  4. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

    150
    +0
    Exactly Scott!

    GW, and other preterists:

    I believe the purpose of this thread is to give you hope and to realize that we have not witnessed the glory of Gods return.
    We can only hope to enlighten you, so that you may be filled with joy at the prospect of Gods return!
     
  5. ScottP

    ScottP New Member

    23
    +0
    Please I really would like for a Preterist to kindly explain when the events I quoted in my last post took place. As I said in my first post, before I joined this message board I hadnever heard the term "preterist" and I am trying to understand where you get the idea that these events have already happened.

    Scott
     
  6. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    ScottP and all,
    I have split this thread so that Scott's questions could be answered and for more order to these discussions.
     
  7. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    ScottP,

    You are misunderstanding the symbolic nature of Revelation, which is a vision containing a great many symbols. St. John wrote the book and sent it to the seven Churches of Asia Minor and told them exactly WHEN the vision was coming to pass -- the 1st century. The timing of the book is given plainly by St. John:


    Revelation 1:1,3
    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS...Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written in it, FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.


    And John, after giving those churches the vision, closes the book by saying to them:

    Revelation 22:6
    And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants THE THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY BE DONE...

    Revelation 22:10-11
    He said to me, "Don't seal up the words of the prophecy of this book FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND. He who acts unjustly, let him act unjustly still. He who is filthy, let him be filthy still!


    So it's clear to whom the vision pertained. It was for St. John and his contemporaries. This is emphasized all throughout the book and we even see how Christ promised to come against 1st century Sardis as a Thief in the Night, a promise which our Lord surely kept, for our Lord is a promise keeper!


    Revelation 3:1-3
    "To the angel of the CHURCH IN SARDIS write: These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. IF THEREFORE THOU SHALT NOT WATCH I WILL COME ON THEE AS A THIEF, AND THOU SHALT NOT KNOW WHAT HOUR I WILL COME UPON THEE."


    Jesus didn't issue empty threats. He promised to come upon Sardis back then and he DID come upon Sardis. He could not lie.

    So this places the fulfillment of the vision clearly in the 1st century, for Christ's generation was the last days generation (1 Cor 10:11; Heb 1:1-2; James 5:3, 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:15-17).

    With you in the victory of Christ,
    GW
     
  8. ScottP

    ScottP New Member

    23
    +0
    GW,

    I hear you but what could the destruction of 1/3 of the trees being burned and ALL of the green grass symbolize and when did what it symbolize take place? It obviously describes an event. What was the event?

    Scott
     
  9. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

    428
    +1
    Christian
    ScottP, I would like to again insist that I get answers from you. It is clear that you are either not interested in getting answers to your questions, or you are ignoring posts. I was polite enough to spend lengthy time to answer some of your concerns, yet when you do get answers, you ignore them and switch gears and topics. In the same manner, I have concerns with futurism, concerns that you are ignoring....why is that Scott?
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Scott, if you want to do the play by play through the book of Revelation I highly recommend this top-notch commentary which can be read here by clicking on the "read in HTML" link at this page:

    THE DAYS OF VENGEANCE
    by David Chilton
    http://freebooks.commentary.net/freebooks/docs/2226_47e.htm


    Or you can read the history of the Great Tribulation here:

    THE GREAT TRIBULATION
    by David Chilton
    http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/html/dcgt/dcgt.html


    These will help you tremendously.

    God bless,
    GW
     
  11. ScottP

    ScottP New Member

    23
    +0
    Pericles,
    I will address all that you have said:

    I agree that Christ died for our sins that we may be saved and enter into the kingdom of heaven when we die and leave this earth as long as you accept him as your savior and beleive that he is your savior. I also agree that I too would be miserable if my "afterlife" were not certain. However, this has no bearing on the book of Revelation and "end times" prophesy.

    Read Rev 20.
    First Satan has to be locked away "that he should deceive the nations no more" for 1000 years after the tribulation while Christ reigns on earth.

    This tells me that for 1000 years AFTER the tribulation that there will be no evil on the earth.

    Then he shall be loosed from his prision "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth" and finaly "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"

    This tells me that the devil and false prophet will be no more. Yet they remain as of today.

    When I die I go to heaven. Satan is not in heaven but is loosed upon the earth to deceive.

    I mean by "end time" that once we are eternal time will have no meaning. Time is still very much relevant.

    I can't see that what was spoken of in revelation has happened. When was all of the green grass burned? When did people have to have a "mark" on the hand or head to or sell goods? If you can explain this I AM listening.

    Christ came because God knew that no man was righteous enough to enter the kingdom of heaven and no amount of animal sacrifices could atone. So he made the ultimate sacrifice...his son Jesus Christ. That was the first coming. There will be a second coming and no man shall know the hour of this coming.
    This is the tree of life "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. "

    Now back to my questions of when the events that I have enquired about have happend if they happened in the past.

    Scott
     
  12. RKF

    RKF Member

    408
    +0
    Scott your not going to get answers outta these guys but you will get confusion, they have a way of twisting the scriptures to show a different way of looking t things but of course they are mistaken. preterism is new and with it's many faults and not many followers. They try to explain away the things that we know to be true, No Jesus hasn't returned YET, and YES he will set up his kingdom here on earth and literally sit on the throne, The jews missed it the first time because they were looking with the wrong eyes, but they won't miss it this time because they will come running when Jesus puts his feet on the mount of olives saying are you the one we pierced and Jesus will show them the wounds and they will bow down and worship him,
    Satan is a defeated foe, but not gone YET,
    The great tribulation hasn't happened YET, Look around you DUH!
    The World is heading full steam into it and more prophecies have been fulfilled inthe last few years then at any other time, in fact in the last two or three months,
    We now have a world court, a world Bank, and world eco. system, a world religious system, a world government system, the revived roman empire is getting stronger by the day, and soon will have it's last president or leader, that I believe could be the anti-christ(no it wasn't NERO)
    The pope is dieing, which will make way for the final religious leader or the false prophet to make his presence known, the stage is set people......Rumors of wars are still happening, earthquakes in different place, (NY had over 2000 earthquakes last year)the weather is funky, people are changing for the worse, the chip is the prelude to the mark of the beast, gays have rights now more than christians, God is not happy........Get yourselves right with God, Repent get baptized in Jesus name and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy ghost, the promise is to you and all that are afar off........ACTS 2:38
    Thank you.
     
  13. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Scott, you are fudging the answer. I simply asked, "why is there need for healing after Christ returns, and after the New Heaven and New Earth are made? This is a simple question... I didn't ask what the tree is, or what it does, I asked why is there a need for healing, and why there are wicked people outside the new Jerusalem?
     
  14. RKF

    RKF Member

    408
    +0
    Because God put it there, it's for therapy....that's what the word translates to
     
  15. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

    977
    +18
    Christian
    US-Constitution
    Why is there a need for therapy if sin, death, pain, anguish no longer exist?

    -A
     
  16. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

    +36
    Non-Denom
    Married
    --at least, sin, death, pain, and anguish as commonly viewed; that is, as physical turmoil.

    Preterists believe that "sin, death, pain, and anguish" have been vanquished for the sake of the believer. Many view this as spiritual, like the Isaiah passage that says "by His stripes we are healed." Our spiritual death and the ailments presented thereby are defeated. Those who are not believers are those wicked people outside the Body of Christ, the New Jerusalem. Many preterists say that the sicknesses of the soul are no more because their healing is freely available.
     
  17. RKF

    RKF Member

    408
    +0
    It for all the crap that we went through in this world,, why are do yall always have to side track the issues?
     
  18. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

    +36
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I just wonder what they say heaven will be like. Couldn't any of that be Heaven? Even given the other claims of preterism.
     
  19. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Like someone said earlier: Why is there a need for therapy if sin, death, pain, anguish no longer exist?
     
  20. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    G'day Scott :wave:

    Ok, I have a question for you Scott –and please don’t confuse the question –it's simple, it ONLY covers two verses:

    Can you give me a "biblically referenced" answer to the presence of evil, and sin filled people in the New Heaven and New Earth –note this is the New Heaven and Earth, NOT the Millennium. This is the re-created world you say is sinless and perfect, with nothing bad. So please explain the following:

    Rev 22:2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Healing ["therapy" if you must -same difference] presupposes SICKNESS which presupposes SIN -and ALL this in the final abode of eternal bliss. –and if it does not, then please explain HOW.

    Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

    One may debate who or what the "City" is -but how do YOU account for these "bad evil people," from whence do they come, how do they come to be in this physical New Creation of yours which as YOU say comes at the final end –AFTER EVERYTHING??? –no more devil, no more sin, no more sickness, no more tears etc etc. Again, this CANNOT be ignored and be explained away as the millennium, as this is Rev 22 it is THE END. There is NO chapter 23 -NO adding to the Bible.

    A biblical response would be appreciated; nothing highfalutin just biblical would be fine.

    davo
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...