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Preterist views on Christ's coming

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by dms1972, Jan 28, 2019.

  1. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No the threatening was serious, but he told them to rouse themselves and repent, his coming as a thief was conditional on the case being that they did not do this. If Sardis didn't repent then indeed Christ's coming was to them like a thief.

    Christ's coming is like that of a thief only to those who are spiritually asleep.

    Matthew 24:42-44

    Revelation 3:2-3
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  2. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But will there be another coming future to us today, a bodily return of Christ? What do preterists say about verse like Acts 1:11

    Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "Why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven."
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
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  3. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

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    They didn't see Jesus leave upward into the sky; they saw him leave in a cloud of heaven (read verse 9).

    Jesus came in the manner that he went - in a shekinah cloud of glory.

    And again, fulfilled prophecy is discriminated against in this forum, so I cannot elaborate.
     
  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Lots of Preterist resources online you can read on that topic...


    https://www.google.com/search?clien...ixJvgAhVMvKwKHWfVB4EQBQgrKAA&biw=1366&bih=626

    https://www.google.com/search?clien...0j0i13i30j0i8i13i30j33i160j33i299.DBDNO5qN8vY

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/Bible_NT/Acts/acts_01-11.html
    ACTS 1:11

    Acts 1:11
    "Jesus the [one] having been taken up from you to - heaven thus will come in the way ye beheld him going to - heaven."
    (Interlinear Greek-English NT)


    The Bible Standard (1970)
    "Question —What is meant by the statement in Acts 1: 11: “This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven”?

    Answer.—This passage is usually explained as though it read, “as ye have seen him go into heaven , so shall ye see him come again.” Those who so interpret the passage explain it as though the point of comparison emphasized in the passage were His being seen going and His being seen coming again, whereas the passage says nothing whatever about His being seen coming again. Hence His being seen coming again cannot be a part of the point of comparison in this passage.
    ==================
    John Goulet-Jones (2003)
    "As for me, I am looking at the Preterist position with reservations and interest. I am actually surprised to find out how many godly men hold to this position.
    In some senses, the Preterist position makes sense - re: the promises of Jesus to return quickly. On the other hand, I have questions about the nature of Christ's return. I cannot turn away from Acts 1:11 and Rev 1:7 where the clear statement of scripture indicate a clear visible bodily return of Christ to be witnessed by Christ's followers and the whole world.

    At this time, personally I look for the coming of Christ, at which time it will be all over - the rapture of the Church and the world judged. Sin will be banished. There will be a new heavens and earth. No laughing allowed. It is my sincere position. It is as plain as day in the sciptures. Can't you see it? (Ha! Ha!) PTL! Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the world will know that we are Christians not by our escatological position but by the love we have for one another. Please leave escatological arrogance at the door." (cite: Here)
    ===========================
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Does the word above come from the Bible?



    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  6. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I have heard that term used in reference to a type of "glory cloud" and a hebrew idiom perhaps.
    Perhaps like the cloud at the transfiguration [God dwelling in a cloud?]

    Matthew 17:5
    Still of Him speaking, behold!
    a luminous cloud overshadows them and behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying "this is being the Son of Me, the Beloved, in Whom I well-pleased<2106>,
    be ye hearing Him!
    Mark 9:7
    And became a cloud overshadowing the and became a Voice out of the cloud saying " this is being the Son of Me, the Beloved,
    be ye hearing Him!
    Luke 9:
    34 These yet of Him saying, became a cloud and overshadowed them and they were fearful. Yet in the to be entering them into the cloud<5399>
    35 and a Voice became out of the cloud saying "this is the Son of Me, the one having been chosen, Him be ye hearing!


    I found a thread on it? This is from a Messianic view:

    Shekinah glory

    Shekhinah - Wikipedia

    The Shekhina(h) (Biblical Hebrew: שכינה‎ šekīnah; also Romanized Shekina(h), Schechina(h), Shechina(h))
    is the English transliteration of a Hebrew word meaning "dwelling" or "settling" and denotes the dwelling or settling of the divine presence of God. This term does not occur in the Bible, and is from rabbinic literature.[1]:148[2][3]

     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  7. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

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    The word per se doesn't appear in the Bible. No more than the word trinity does. Or rapture.
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The "rabbinic literature" also claims Christ is the illegitimate child of Mary and a Roman soldier.
    See 1 John 2:22-23.

    .
     
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  9. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    My apologies.
    I was under the impression you believed His thief's coming did NOT indeed befall those at Sardis who weren't watching.

    My Mistake
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Would you say they are are no on 12 thrones judging Israel?

    Mat 19:28
    So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory,
    you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones,
    judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Luke 22:30
    “that ye may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom,
    and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

    Are the 2 witnesses ascending in Revelation 11 fulfilled?

    REVE 20:5-6 "THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION"

    Revelation 11:12
    And they hear a great voice out of the heaven saying to them, “ascend<305> ye here!
    And they ascended<305> into the heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

    Revelation 20:4
    And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and
    judgment was committed to them.
     
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  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    It is the judgment of the dead that is a problem for some forms of Preterism.
    How do you make the following fit your form of the doctrine?


    Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Do you think the judgment of the dead occurred in 70 AD?

    .

     
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  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    My "form of doctrine".....LOL. What is your form of doctrine?

    If Revelation is the fulfillment of Luke's 1st century Temple/Discourses, then yes it happened in 70ad/1st century.

    If Revelation is not that fulfillment, then of course the Jews will have to wait till they build a future Temple and Sanctuary, then it will come. In either case, that is their worry, not mine,
    so perhaps you should ask for their view of Luke and Revelation......

    Do you believe any of Luke's Jerusalem/Temple discourses are fulfilled and or showing in Revelation?

    Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10


    Luke 21:24
    “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.

    Is this 1st century/70ad or still yet future for the Jews [looks like they will need their swords].....

    Revelation 13:10
    If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
    If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
    Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints


    24 And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

    In YOUR view/doctrine, is this 70ad/1st century or still future for the Jews and their City/Temple?

    Revelation 11:

    1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
    2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
    and the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    As soon as you respond to my above post concerning Luke and Revelation, I will continue with some more Luke and Revelation scriptures [of which you keep quoting]....
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I thought you already knew what I thought about Luke 21, since I have posted it and you have re-posted it?


    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,...

    past events

    until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ..............................................
    (Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. Also see Galatians 1:14-18. )

    future events

    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    .
     
  16. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    So your making a 2000 yr gap in the Jerusalem/Temple discourse?!?!?!
    That is just as bad and no different than the Dispensationalist' view of a 2000yr gap in Daniel's 70 weeks!
    Or do you believe there is a gap in Daniel's 70th week?


    Here are the verses you put up:
    I am going to include the verse in Luke that you conveniently left out,
    and why don't you and/or others see if and where certain word/phrases are used in the 70ad book of Revelation? Especially if one is a preterist! [which I thought you were]

    Matthew 12:41

    `Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/standing up/<450> in the judging<2920> with this generation and they shall be condemning it,

    Luke 11:32
    'Men of Nineveh<3536> shall be resurrecting/standing-up <450> in the judging<2920> with this generation, and shall be condemning<2632 it,

    ======================================
    G2920 κρίσις (krisis), which occurs 48 times in 47 verses

    4 verses in REVELATION

    Rev 14:7
    saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him,
    for the hour of His judgment has come;
    and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
    Rev 16:7
    And I heard another from[fn] the altar saying,
    “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.
    Rev 18:10
    “standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty City!
    For in one hour Your judgment has come.’
    Rev 19:2
    “For true and righteous are His judgments,
    because He has judged the great Harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
    and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”

    Matthew 23:37
    ‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
    that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee,....
    Behold! left desolate to you is your house;
    Luke 13:34
    ‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
    that is killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto her......
    35 ‘Behold! your house is being left to you desolate,
    =================================
    Now let's take a look at where #3340 is used:

    G3340 μετανοέω (metanoeō), occurs 36 times in 32 verses

    Matthew 12:41
    that they repent/reform<3340> into the proclamation of Jonah
    and behold! more of Jonah here.
    Luke 11:32
    because they repent/reform<3340> at the proclamation<2782> of Jonah;
    and behold! greater/more<4119> of Jonah here!
    ===========================
    #3340 used in 4 verses of 70ad Revelation

    Revelation 9:
    20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues,
    did not repent/repent of the works of their hands,
    that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
    21 And they did not repent/reform of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
    Revelation 16:
    9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues;
    and they did not repent/reform and give Him glory.
    11 - They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores,
    and did not repent/reform of their deeds.
    =============================
    This is a response to a post you made on the Daniel's 70 weeks gap thread:

    Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
    This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

    Based on What Paul said in Galatians 1:14-18, and Acts of the Apostles 28:17-31, we are now in the times of the Gentiles.


    Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. (Paul was speaking to Jews in Rome.)


    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    When do you think the times of the Gentiles comes to an end?


    .
     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I will have to research more on the war of the Jews from 63ad and 70ad.
    I can offer an opinion tho based on Josephus' account of what was happening to the cities of Israel and Judah between 63 ad and 70ad.

    This is what was happening before the final siege in 70ad.
    There was widespread rebellions by various Jewish factions and thus the 42 months could include the trampling by those, and not just the Romans in 70 ad.

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
    I did a google search on 42 months Jerusalem 70 ad and this site came up..
    I quoted just part of it, but I am putting it into a study folder as the author appears to have some interesting perspectives on it and fills in a lot of the puzzle during that period.......Fascinating........

    I am bolding the parts that I feel are worth studying more deeply on.....

    The Gentiles Trampled Jerusalem for 42 Months (Revelation 11:1-2)

    In Revelation 11:1-2 John was told about a 3.5 year period of tragedy that was about to come upon:
    Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, ‘Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.’”

    The Greek word used here for “Gentiles” is “ethnos,” the counterpart of the Hebrew word “goy” in the Old Testament. In the past, I simply assumed that this must be a reference to the Romans who helped destroy Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.
    I marked out 3.5 years from the time that Nero dispatched Vespasian as his war general (early 67 AD) until Vespasian’s son, Titus, oversaw the burning of the temple in August 70 AD.

    However, the Romans did not trample the city of Jerusalem for 42 months. They only trampled Jerusalem during the 5-month siege of Titus in 70 AD.

    The Jews successfully kicked the Romans out of Jerusalem in August 66 AD, and they only managed to return to Jerusalem for a few days in November 66 AD when Cestius Gallus unsuccessfully attacked the city.

    For the next 3.5 years the Romans did not enter Jerusalem.

    During the 42 months before the Romans came, Jerusalem was indeed trampled,
    but it was by a different group of people.

    In early 68 AD Jesus ben Gamala, one of the former high priests, gave a speech in which he described what was happening to Jerusalem because of the Zealots:


    “And this place, which is adored by the habitable world, and honored by such as only know it by report, as far as the ends of the earth, is trampled upon by these wild beasts born among ourselves” (Wars 4.4.3).


    “Foreigners Appeared to Have Begun the War.”
    About a year into the Jewish-Roman War (66-73 AD), the Roman general Vespasian stated his strong suspicion that “foreigners” had begun the war.


    Josephus then identified those foreigners and where they came from. It happened when Vespasian captured part of Galilee in the summer of 67 AD. He “sat upon his tribunal at Taricheae, in order to distinguish the foreigners from the old inhabitants; for those foreigners appeared to have begun the war.

    Some of those foreigners were from Hippos, which was “a Greco-Roman city” in the Decapolis that was “culturally tied more closely to Greece and Rome than to the Semitic ethnoi around” (Wikipedia). Josephus said that “the greatest part of [those foreigners] were seditious persons and fugitives, who were of such shameful characters that they preferred war before peace.” Most of the other foreigners were from Trachonitis and Gaulanitis, in the region of Batanea near Persia (Wars 3.10.10).
    =====================================

    ........................

     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Are you ignoring what Paul said about the Gospel being taken to the Gentiles in Acts chapter 28?

    Are you ignoring what Paul said in Romans 11?

    Do you realize that the reference to 3 1/2 years or 42 months is found in numerous places in scripture because it is half of the 7 year Hebrew calendar?

    .
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Double, due to computer problems today...

    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
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