saltoearth said:
Isaiah 63:1-6
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. 2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? 3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
Who is doing the vengence? Does any nation, people or person "help" the Lord take vengence? The LORD himself will destroy ALL heathens. Has this ever happened in the entire history of man? Yes. The flood. And Christ told us that the times of Noah would be like the times when he returned.
In order to understand the nature of the "Day of Christ", one must first understand the nature of the various "Day of the Lord" events that preceded it.
Jehovah's comings were always described as personal and visible (see: Isa 19:1-2; Isa 31 all; Deut 33:2, Zech 9:13; etc.). Jesus was to come "in the glory of the Father." Christ's coming was to be a Day of Yahweh event, which reveals to us the precise nature of that event.
The desolation of Jerusalem by the Babylonians was a past "Day of the Lord." After it happened, the prophet Jeremiah tells us:
Lamentations 1:12
behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me
in the day of his fierce anger.
Lamentations 2:1
How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool
in the day of his anger
Lamentations 2:21
The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain them
in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied.
Lamentations 2:22
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that
in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained
Note also that it was God who did the killing! Did anyone
SEE Jehovah kill people? Was the prophet lying? Of course not. This is how the prophets spoke.
Furthermore, Ezekiel had foretold of this same Day of the Lord against Jerusalem which took place in the 500s BC, saying:
Ezekiel 7:19
They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them
in the day of the wrath of Jehovah: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.
And again, Ezekiel says of this same past Day of the Lord...
Ezekiel 13:2-5
Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand
in the battle in the day of Jehovah.
The prophet Zephaniah also calls the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians "the Day of the Lord."
Zephaniah 1:1 - 1:7
The word of Yahweh which came to Zephaniah, the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah,
in the days of Josiah, the son of Amon, king of Judah. I will utterly sweep away everything off of the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will sweep away man and animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut off man from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh.
I will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place: the name of the idolatrous and pagan priests, those who worship the host of the sky on the housetops, those who worship and swear by Yahweh and also swear by Malcam, those who have turned back from following Yahweh, and those who haven't sought Yahweh nor inquired after him. Be silent at the presence of the Lord Yahweh, for the day of Yahweh is at hand. For Yahweh has prepared a sacrifice. He has consecrated his guests.
Folks, there we have the classic "Day of the Lord" in scripture. The prophets speak of Jehovah who comes down and does a whole host of
"physical" things. Yet did any one
SEE [/b]Yahweh do these things? Was Zephaniah lying? This scripture goes on all the way to the end of Zephaniah chapter two, and be sure to note that the judgments that ensue upon the other surrounding nations are also a past Day of Yahweh event (1:14; 2:2-3).
So, the destruction of Jerusalem in the 500s BC is just one example of MANY past day of the LORD events.
The N.T. teaches that Christ's return was to be a "Day of Yahweh" event. This perfectly coincides with AD 67-70, which was the greatest Day of the Lord in history.
Jesus wielded Rome's powers as Jehovah had wielded the powers and kings of Babylon and Persia as his own anointed servants (Jer 25:9; Isa 44:28-45:13). That's how the Day of the Lord judgments work. Rome continued so that the Church would over take it as the stone of Daniel 2 that became a giant mountain over the whole earth. The pagan Roman Empire was destroyed.
John's own interpretation of Rev 1:7's cloud-coming is found in Rev 14:14-20! No one can deny that the Rev 14:14-20 passage shows a coming in the heavenly realms which brings disasters upon earth--it is not an incarnational event. Rather, this perfectly depicts the way the Father came in O.T. times--in power and great glory. As Jesus promised, he was to come "in the glory of the Father." Furthermore, Jesus said that when his future kingdom came, no one would be able to point to it and say "look here it is, or look there it is" (Luke 17:20-21). Since "the kingdom does not come in an observable fashion" (Luke 17:20-21), and since Christ was to come "in his kingdom" (Mt 16:27-28 ), it follows by logical necessity that Christ's coming was not observable. Rather, it was a "Day of the Lord event (i.e., in the heavenly realms with great disasters and wrath poured out upon nations and people).
The coming of Christ on the clouds that every eye would see (Rev 1:7) is actually shown us in Revelation 14:14-20. There can be no doubt that the Rev 14:14-20 passage makes clear that it is a coming in the heavenlies like unto the many O.T. Jehovah comings (cf. Isa 19:1-2; Deut 33:2; 2 Sam 22:7-16; Zech 9:13-16; Zeph 1:2-5; Isaiah 31, Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16; etc.). Jehovah came often in O.T. times, yet his presence, which always performed the desolations, was potent and invisible. Jesus had promised that he was to come "in the glory of the Father.
The great and terrible Day of the Lord struck at the headquarters of opposition. Apostate Jerusalem, a.k.a. the great city Mystery Babylon (Rev 14:8/11:8 ), was responsible for the persecution of Christ and the apostles and prophets. They used the power of Rome to persecute the Church worldwide after killing Christ himself. For that, all of the blood shed on the earth from Able unto the time of Christ was to be avenged upon their generation according to Matt 23:31-36. All torah-observant, Christ-rejecting Jews in the Roman Empire were destroyed in Jerusalem in that great wrath of AD 67-70. The judgment came at that time (1 Peter 4:17; cf Jn 12:31), for the end of all things was then at hand (1 Peter 4:7; 2 Tim 4:1)--the end of the age had come.
Furthermore, the vengeance of God in those last days (Heb 1:1-2; James 5:3; Acts 2:15-17) had worldwide impact. A last-days famine hit the whole empire (Acts 11:28 ), God was striking down kings (Acts 12:20-23) as well as the emperor-gods (Nero, Galba, etc), Rome burned, and the world Temple of Jupiter was destroyed in AD 69. That Day of the Lord, the greatest of all those before it, did come upon the whole world as prophesied. Christ's Church emerged victorious and has become the greatest empire known to mankind.
Let me say that if one understands what the Day of the Lord was, and if one is very familiar with the many historic Day-of-the-Lord judgments that transpired in Old Testament times, then one quickly understands that the second coming was, by nature, to be a Day of the Lord event just like those in O.T. times. The preterist view is entirely consistent with the Old Testament in understanding AD 67-70 as not only a "Day of the Lord," but the greatest of all those that had ever been.
From the all the scriptures that I have read about The Day of The Lord, I see a common tread of God taking vengence on all his enemies, in a very real and scary way. The destruction of Jerusalam by the Babylonians and then again bby the Romans can hardly be called complete vengence on all sinners. Their examples to me are types and shaddows of the TRUE Day of The Lord.
You correctly cite that The phrase "the day of the Lord" is used time and again by the prophets to describe local judgements of God upon his enemies yet it appears you are asserting that everything God promeised would happen during those particular "day of the Lord" events didn't happen as God promised they would.
Are you saying God deliberately misled those people into thinking all these earth shaking, universally cataclysmic events described would happen to them, when he really meant that they would happen thousands of years later in another "Day of the Lord" event not even under discussionat the time?
Where does the Bible teach you that all previous day of the lord events are not to be taken word for word as correct descriptions of those events?
the passage in 2 Peter 3:10 mixes itself with other passages about The Day of The Lord, which some have claimed is PAST.
The Bible itself cements the Day of the Lord spoken of in 2 Peter 3 to the 1st century.
Revelation 3:1-3
"1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
In 2 Peter 3 the Day of the Lord comes as a thief, and in revelation 3 Christ Promises to come upon the 1st century Church at Sardis "As a Thief". Much as you need it to, the Bible does not teach that Christ comes "as a thief" multiple times. The simple fact is that Christ's "coming as a thief" is the second coming, and The second coming of Christ is NOT A CONDITIONAL EVENT. According to scripture, the second coming of Christ was to take place irrespective of whether some repented and others did not -- in fact, the doctrine of the second coming fully and uniformly teaches that some would be faithful and others unfaithful (Romans 2:5-9; Mt 25:1-13; Lk 13:24-30; 1 Cor 3:12-15). As the angel also plainly states:
Revelation 22:10-11
And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."
Did you catch that? Man's repentance or lack thereof has nothing to do with the timing of the coming of Christ. Nothing whatsoever. Note also that Jesus explicitly says that the Thyatria Prophetess movement chose not to repent, and that He was coming and would kill her and her "children." But to the rest at Thyatria (the faithful), they were to hold fast and had no additional burden placed upon them, for Jesus had rewards to give them as stated in Rev 2:26-28. We know that Christ came to them, for he came and killed the Prophetess and rewarded the faithful as he said. This is all first-century stuff here. No "Church Age," no "1948," no "21st century computer chips" -- the glorified Jesus knew of none of those modern speculative doctrines, and that makes them impossible doctrines, ones not found anywhere in scripture. Had any of those things been biblical doctrines, then Jesus would not be promising His second coming to first-century churches as we see him doing in Revelation 2-3, where He plainly applies the doctrine to first-century people. Jesus must be right, and therefore futurism must be wrong concerning the timing of the second coming of Christ.
