Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

[trophy33]

I'm going to ask you one more time to be more specific. Can you please specifically tell me exactly what your point is here? If you continue to only want to play games then I'm not interested in continuing the discussion.

Ok, nevermind.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Those resurrected people died again, same as the man resurrected when his dead body came in contact with Elisha's bones. (2 Kings 13:21)

I'm sorry, but that assumption is not possible. It would directly contradict Hebrews 9:27 which says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after that the judgment. The bodies of mankind die only once. For the righteous, their dead bodies are raised incorruptible. For those who do not die in Christ, they are destined to perish.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I'm sorry, but that assumption is not possible. It would directly contradict Hebrews 9:27 which says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after that the judgment.

I think you're interpreting that verse a bit too rigidly. Paul taught that there are some who won't die at all (1 Cor 15:51-52). That would technically violate Hebrews 9:27 as well, so should we not accept what Paul taught just because of a hyper-literal interpretation of Hebrews 9:27?

 

[Douggg]

Why do you think so?

Do you think there was some logical obstacle in the first century that makes it impossible?

Or do you simply think that the history is so old and we have so scarce preserved records from the first century war that we cannot be certain it happened?

What is your reasoning, exactly.

Hi myst33,

Because the content of Matthew 24:15-51 is time of the end. The reference Jesus made about the abomination of desolation of verse 15 was to what Daniel the prophet was told to express.

The abomination of desolation is found in Daniel 12:11-12, and Daniel 12 starts off with the worst time in Israel's existence (the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21) and in verse 4 is time of the end.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

There are other important time of the end passages to happen during that same time. The vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 about the little horn person and the transgression of desolation are said to be time of the end as well.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

The Antichrist (the little horn) going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood is the transgression of desolation.

Later, after he is killed for his act, and brought back to life as the beast, a statue image of him will be made and placed in the temple courtyard, as the abomination of desolation.

Which Jesus told them in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Hi myst33,

Because the content of Matthew 24:15-51 is time of the end. The reference Jesus made about the abomination of desolation of verse 15 was to what Daniel the prophet was told to express.

The abomination of desolation is found in Daniel 12:11-12, and Daniel 12 starts off with the worst time in Israel's existence (the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21) and in verse 4 is time of the end.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

There are other important time of the end passages to happen during that same time. The vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 about the little horn person and the transgression of desolation are said to be time of the end as well.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

The Antichrist (the little horn) going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood is the transgression of desolation.

Later, after he is killed for his act, and brought back to life as the beast, a statue image of him will be made and placed in the temple courtyard, as the abomination of desolation.

Which Jesus told them in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see it.

Why would Jesus say that it would be a problem for nursing mothers and pregnant women at that time (Matt 24:19) if all that is something that will happen in the future? Is it a problem for nursing mothers and pregnant women to travel in this day and age? Not if they have someone to give them a ride.

Why would Jesus say that they should pray that their flight wouldn't be in the winter (Matt 24:20) if those things were going to happen in the future? Is traveling during the winter that big of a problem in this day and age where we have plenty of protection from the cold and snow? No. He knew that what He was saying would occur during a time when it would still be a problem to travel during the winter because it would happen during a time when they would not have good protection from the cold and snow when traveling like they have now.

It seems that you're ignoring or overlooking some of the context of Matthew 24:15-22.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I think you're interpreting that verse a bit too rigidly. Paul taught that there are some who won't die at all (1 Cor 15:51-52). That would technically violate Hebrews 9:27 as well, so should we not accept what Paul taught just because of a hyper-literal interpretation of Hebrews 9:27?

That is not at all what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. There is no "technical violation" of the Hebrews 9:27 rule. Paul did not teach any exception to the one-time-only death for all mankind in the 1 Cor. 15:51-52 text.

Paul was speaking to the believers when he said "We shall not all sleep" meaning "None of us shall sleep, but we shall all be changed..." None of the believers would stay dead in the grave. ALL of the dead believers would be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, etc.. That entire context describes how the dead in Christ would be given incorruptibility in the resurrection - not how there would be some believers who would never pass through death at all.

Traditionally, this verse has been interpreted to mean that not every person would experience the physical death process, but all would be changed anyway, whether they were alive or not. But you should compare this verse to the way 1 John 2:19 uses the very same language about the many antichrists that went out from among the believers. It reads...

"They" (speaking of the antichrists) "went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were NOT ALL of us." This is exactly the same way 1 Cor. 15:51 reads, when it says "we shall NOT ALL sleep..."

Now, if you are going to make "not all" teach that there are exceptions to the general rule, then you would have to do the very same thing with the antichrists spoken about in 1 John 2:19. That would mean that some of the antichrists actually did belong among the believers, as an exception. And that was not John's point at all. He meant that NONE of the antichrists actually belonged among the believers. It was manifestly obvious that none of them belonged with the assembly, because they all took off and quit having fellowship with the church.

It's the same thing with "we shall not all sleep...". It means that there would not be a single exception among the dead believers - ALL would have their dead bodies changed into the incorruptible.

The message of scripture is unanimous across the board with no contradictions: all of mankind dies the one time - no exceptions. And all of the dead bodies of believers will be changed to the incorruptible in a bodily resurrection. Not one of them will be left in the dust of the grave.

 

[jgr]

Hi myst33,

Because the content of Matthew 24:15-51 is time of the end. The reference Jesus made about the abomination of desolation of verse 15 was to what Daniel the prophet was told to express.

The abomination of desolation is found in Daniel 12:11-12, and Daniel 12 starts off with the worst time in Israel's existence (the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21) and in verse 4 is time of the end.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

There are other important time of the end passages to happen during that same time. The vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 about the little horn person and the transgression of desolation are said to be time of the end as well.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

The Antichrist (the little horn) going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood is the transgression of desolation.

Later, after he is killed for his act, and brought back to life as the beast, a statue image of him will be made and placed in the temple courtyard, as the abomination of desolation.

Which Jesus told them in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see it.

Matthew 24

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

You agree that the above were fulfilled before 70 AD.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

In verse 25, Jesus links His words in verses 23-26 to His words in verses 4-5, 11.

The "you" in verses 23, 25, 26 is the same "you" as in verse 4. Jesus' audience does not change.

Therefore verses 23-26 are not about the "time of the end", but also about the period before 70 AD.

Historical confirmation:

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet.

These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

 

[Douggg]

n verse 25, Jesus links His words in verses 23-26 to His words in verses 4-5, 11.

The "you" in verses 23, 25, 26 is the same "you" as in verse 4. Jesus' audience does not change.

Therefore verses 23-26 are not about the "time of the end", but also about the period before 70 AD.

Verse 23-26 is time of the end, because there will be false Christs in the time of the end just like in the disciples' days.

Some recent ones are John Miller in Australia, Vissarion in Russia, Jose' Miranda (deceased) in the USA.

 

[jgr]

Verse 23-26 is time of the end, because there will be false Christs in the time of the end just like in the disciples' days.

Some recent ones are John Miller in Australia, Vissarion in Russia, Jose' Miranda (deceased) in the USA.

Who are "you" in verses 4, 23, 25, 26?

What had "you" been told "before"?

 

[Douggg]

Who are "you" in verses 4, 23, 25, 26?

Given that we have perfect 20/20 hindsight, them in verse 4 are Jesus's followers in the last days. Last days, covering many generations, is from Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection unto His Second Coming.

Them in verses 23, 25, 26 are Jesus's followers in the end times. The end times is final part of the Last Days, the parable of the fig tree generation.

What had "you" been told "before"?

It means that Jesus has said it will happen before it happens.

 

[robycop3]

Its mostly wrong to expect literal fulfillment of metaphores or of biblical usage of "all, the whole earth" etc. Any chance you expect such fulfillments?

Of course, since JESUS said them.

What has not happened yet?

Coming of the beast/antichrist to power
The AOL
The marka the beast.
The great trib.
And, of course, Jesus' return, & everything that follows.

 

[robycop3]

Are there any history books that actually deny the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple? Do YOU deny the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple?

Of course not, but I DO deny the beast/antichrist has come to power, the AOL, marka the beast, &great trib have occurred, and, of course, Jesus hasn't yet returned.

 

[robycop3]

I'm sorry, but that assumption is not possible. It would directly contradict Hebrews 9:27 which says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after that the judgment. The bodies of mankind die only once. For the righteous, their dead bodies are raised incorruptible. For those who do not die in Christ, they are destined to perish.

Again, have you talked to Jairus' daughter, Lazarus, or Dorcas lately? How about the man who was resurrected when his dead body touched Elisha's bones? They oughtta be pretty famous!

 

[Hammster]

Of course not, but I DO deny the beast/antichrist has come to power, the AOL, marka the beast, &great trib have occurred, and, of course, Jesus hasn't yet returned.

You keep bringing up the return of Christ as if I’m making that argument. I’m not. But we did have the beast come to power. Antichrist is never mentioned in Matthew or Revelation. And we had the great tribulation. And Christ came on the clouds in power and glory. So your OP is false.

 

[trophy33]

Of course, since JESUS said them.

Metaphors said by Jesus are not metaphors?

Coming of the beast/antichrist to power

Nero.

The AOL

Not sure what this is.

The marka the beast.

A metaphor

The great trib.

The massacre of the Jews, famines and other problems during 66-70 AD

And, of course, Jesus' return, & everything that follows.

Depends on whether you want to use your physical or spiritual eyes.

 

[Hammster]

When the ad hominems come out, you know you’ve won. Nothing more to say here.

 

[trophy33]

Hi myst33,

Because the content of Matthew 24:15-51 is time of the end. The reference Jesus made about the abomination of desolation of verse 15 was to what Daniel the prophet was told to express.

The abomination of desolation is found in Daniel 12:11-12, and Daniel 12 starts off with the worst time in Israel's existence (the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21) and in verse 4 is time of the end.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

There are other important time of the end passages to happen during that same time. The vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 about the little horn person and the transgression of desolation are said to be time of the end as well.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

This is all pretty well evidenced by the historical records.

The Antichrist (the little horn) going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood is the transgression of desolation.

Later, after he is killed for his act, and brought back to life as the beast, a statue image of him will be made and placed in the temple courtyard, as the abomination of desolation.

You are mixing Paul and Revelation here which is not a good thing. Paul wrote letters to churches, Revelation is a book of images.

Which Jesus told them in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see it.

This happened.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Again, have you talked to Jairus' daughter, Lazarus, or Dorcas lately? How about the man who was resurrected when his dead body touched Elisha's bones? They oughtta be pretty famous!

Again, I will remind you that they were "raptured" off the planet back in the AD 70 resurrection when Christ returned to the Mount of Olives as He was prophesied to do. They were the ones who were MADE "ALIVE" by resurrection, and had "remained" on earth until then. You will not meet any of those formerly-resurrected saints today, since they were "caught up together" with the newly-resurrected saints on that AD 70 year's Pentecost-day resurrection, just as Daniel 12:12 prophesied for that 1335th day.

 

[robycop3]

Metaphors said by Jesus are not metaphors?

Not if they're LITERAL.

Nero.

Nupe! Nero, while a bad boy, didn't BEGIN to fulfill the Biblical criteria for the beast/antichrist. He didn't overthrow 3 kings to come to power; he was appointed by his uncle Claudius & confirmed by the Senate. He had no miracle-working false prophet as his deputy. He was never in Jerusalem in his life, let alone in the temple. He was overthrown my men, while the true beast won't be. And he DIED; he was not cast alive into hell.

Not sure what this is.

AOL="abomination of desolation". It'll be when the antichrist enters the new temple the Jews will build, set up his statue in it, & declare himself God.

Metaphore

Nupe! LITERAL !

Massacre of the Jews, femines and other problems during 66-70 AD

Nupe! It'll be WORLDWIDE, not just limited to the Jews.(Rev. 3:10) There was no death of all life in the sea, no great rain of rocks, no splitting of Jerusalem into 3 parts by an earthquake, etc.

Depends on whether you want to use your physical or spiritual eyes.

JESUS HIMSELF said, "Every eye shall see Him, even the eyes of those who pierced Him."

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Oh, REALLY? Then, show us from a legitimate, unbiased history book.

Bias isn't what makes something true or not. The only thing that makes something true or not are the actual facts. Your demand would eliminate the bible itself as it is extremely biased towards God and His Christ. The bible is unequivocally one-sided. Does that make the bible untrue?