Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

[Timtofly]

If your chosen interpretation of "We shall not all sleep" in 1 Cor. 15:51 is presuming that some will not die, then you are flatly contradicting Hebrews 9:27 which says that all are APPOINTED "ONCE TO DIE". You have NOT reconciled these two texts with your assumption that the living are somehow "translated" without dying. Your interpretation requiring a supposed "translation" change of the living at the rapture creates a man-made contradiction between scriptures.

Sleep was the state after death, not death itself. Satan convinced the Greeks that all bodies go into the earth. Do you accept that bodies are walking around in sheol?

When Christ returns billions of souls will still be in dead bodies walking around on earth. At that point, the soul has to vacate this dead body, and enter the permanent incorruptible body. Otherwise that soul could not enter Paradise. The soul is translated from one body to the other body. The body itself is not re-dna'd to a new form. Those in Paradise do not need a resurrection. They have had incorruptible bodies since they were resurrected at the end of life in their corruptible body. The living can in no way shape or form precede nor prevent those who have already recieved their incorruptible bodies. That is a done deal, when a soul leaves this corruptible body. The only dead bodies left are those walking around on earth at the Second Coming. We are currently keeping that appointment of death. We do not even face a judgment, because that judgment was on the Cross. God already sees believers as physically sitting in Paradise with Christ.

Only those who remain dead will stand before God at the GWT.

 

[Timtofly]

Not that I'm disagreeing with you about anything here, at least not yet anyway, what do you take every eye to mean? Everyone that is alive at the time? Or everyone that is alive at the time and everyone that is dead at the time?

What about this: Revelation 5:12-13

"Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

At the point where Jesus was about to open up the first Seal, all alive, heard John. If all heard John, then by the time the 6th Seal was opened all would see Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

What few exceptions were those, in light of what Jesus said per the following?

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Elijah and Moses. There is no indication these two had to remain in Abraham's bosom. If they were not on earth, or under the earth, and not in the sea; the only other place would be Paradise.

Elijah did not ascend like Jesus. He ascended in a chariot of fire.

 

[robycop3]

Not that I'm disagreeing with you about anything here, at least not yet anyway, what do you take every eye to mean? Everyone that is alive at the time? Or everyone that is alive at the time and everyone that is dead at the time?

Every eye of those both alive & dead when He returns, as those who pierced Him are long-dead.

 

[robycop3]

Elijah and Moses. There is no indication these two had to remain in Abraham's bosom. If they were not on earth, or under the earth, and not in the sea; the only other place would be Paradise.

Elijah did not ascend like Jesus. He ascended in a chariot of fire.

Remember, Enoch didn't die, either.

 

[DavidPT]

Every eye of those both alive & dead when He returns, as those who pierced Him are long-dead.

Doesn't this imply that all of the dead, both the saved and unsaved, are resurrected at that time in order to see His coming?

 

[3 Resurrections]

The second death is that of the spirit. It is complete separation from God.

John tells us exactly what the "Second Death" is in Revelation 10:14. It is just another name for the "Lake of Fire". This is the same as the "Furnace of Fire" - located in Zion in Jerusalem, as God said back in Isaiah 31:9.

This body is corruption. The eternal body is incorruption

God takes the same corrupt body forms of the saints and changes them into an incorruptible condition. Even Job knew this was going to happen (Job 14:14). It's called a "CHANGE" of our vile bodies, to be "made like unto His glorious body" (Phil. 3:21). It is not an EXCHANGE, .

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is no rule that all have to die once. All are already dead. In Adam all are born dead.

Then you are clearly refusing to believe Hebrews 9:27.

It is physical death of the body that is being spoken of in Hebrews 9:27, because it makes a direct comparison to the one-time death experience for Christ's physical body.

I agree that no one dies twice. Not Lazarus, nor any of the other individuals raised to life again by the power of the Holy Spirit in both OT and NT examples.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Elijah did not ascend like Jesus. He ascended in a chariot of fire.

It is written in the LXX for II Kings 2 that Elijah ascended "AS IT WERE into heaven". Not that he actually ascended into God's presence in the third heaven, but merely went into the atmospheric heaven. Elijah was transported by the whirlwind into the sky and taken to another location on earth, rather like Philip in Acts 8:40 was caught away from the eunuch and found later at Azotus.

We know Elijah never left the planet by that whirlwind transport, because about 10 years later, Elijah was writing a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chron. 21:12; listing the king's sins, and prophesying his coming death by a disease of his bowels falling out. Elijah died, just as every other human has physically died.

As for Moses, God flatly declared to Joshua that "Moses my servant is DEAD". God Himself buried him in Mount Nebo.

 

[3 Resurrections]

There have been many disasters moch-worse than the siege of Jerusalem. The "black death" plague pandemic in Europe, the Yangtze River floods, the 2 World Wars & the events within them, the 1918 flu pandemic, all killed many more people than died in Jerusalem. remember, Jesus said that if the trib wasn't to be cut short, that NO FLESH (man or animal) would survive.

Robycop3, you are missing the distinction Christ made between the "Great Tribulation" and other periods of tribulation in history following that. It is NOT the sheer amount of blood lost, nor of the overwhelming number of casualties, nor of unparalleled numbers of destroyed cities, nor of the unequalled intensity and spread of plagues. The difference was not to be in the SHEER QUANTITY of these things, but in the PARTICULAR TYPE of tribulation that was going to be experienced during that "Great Tribulation". Christ told us what would make that first-century period a "Great Tribulation", and it was the coming seven-fold oppression by unclean spirits upon that wicked generation in its "last state" before God "shattered the mighty and holy people". You and I will never experience the entire demonic realm descending upon a city, such as the city of Jerusalem experienced in AD 66-70 when Satan and his devils were all imprisoned within Jerusalem's walls. Since the Satanic realm was destroyed back then, according to God's prophecies, a tribulation such as that one which the Jews experienced during those "days of vengeance" will never occur again.

 

[DavidPT]

I agree that no one dies twice. Not Lazarus, nor any of the other individuals raised to life again by the power of the Holy Spirit in both OT and NT examples.

It is your opinion that once Jesus caused Lazarus to rise from the died he never died again after that, thus making him one already possessing bodily immortality before Christ even did? I guess when the dead are changed at the last trump, in the twinkling of an eye, thus when mortal puts on immortality, thus receive an immortal body, Lazarus won't be included since he already has one of those bodies, and even before Jesus did.

 

[3 Resurrections]

It is your opinion that once Jesus caused Lazarus to rise from the died he never died again after that, thus making him one already possessing bodily immortality before Christ even did?

That's not MY opinion, it is the only way that Hebrews 9:27 and its "ONCE TO DIE" rule can be true. MANY saints from the OT and NT were given bodily immortality before Christ, but NONE of them had ever ascended to the Father to stand in His presence in their resurrected, immortal body forms. CHRIST was the first one ever to do this on the morning after His resurrection, when He ascended to the Father that day. "THIS DAY have I begotten thee..." God said to Christ on that occasion.

Jesus is unique in His being called the "FIRST-born" and the "FIRST-begotten", not just because of His bodily resurrection, but because He was the FIRST to ascend to heaven in a bodily-resurrected human form, and stand before His Father's presence.

Every first-born child in Israel that was dedicated to the Lord was a picture that pointed forward in time to Jesus as the "FIRST-born" when He was "begotten" in heaven that resurrection day. Something was "birthed" in heaven at that moment that had never existed in heaven before then. And ALL of Jesus' brethren would follow Him by eventually arriving there as well. Just not all at once, since God designed this to happen in stages. Once in AD 70, and one more time at the close of fallen man's history in our future.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Remember, Enoch didn't die, either.

Enoch is the single exception in all of human history of one who "was translated that he should not see death". No one else has, or ever will have that translation experience. Enoch reappears in history as Melchizedek - the one who in those days had no obvious beginning of life nor end of days as Hebrews described him. Melchizedek was still alive on earth when Hebrews was being written, because Heb. 7:8 says, "...it is witnessed that HE LIVETH." Present tense for that time period.

God chose that one individual man, Enoch / aka Melchizedek, for a unique purpose: to provide the pattern type of the deathless high priesthood order of Melchizedek that Christ would fulfill by His own deathless high priesthood over the New Covenant.

 

[Timtofly]

Remember, Enoch didn't die, either.

He came back in a chariot of fire, and went by the name Elijah. "Yahweh is my God" is a fitting name Enoch chose to go by.

 

[Timtofly]

John tells us exactly what the "Second Death" is in Revelation 10:14. It is just another name for the "Lake of Fire". This is the same as the "Furnace of Fire" - located in Zion in Jerusalem, as God said back in Isaiah 31:9.



God takes the same corrupt body forms of the saints and changes them into an incorruptible condition. Even Job knew this was going to happen (Job 14:14). It's called a "CHANGE" of our vile bodies, to be "made like unto His glorious body" (Phil. 3:21). It is not an EXCHANGE, .

I guess Paul did not get the same memo Job did.

 

[robycop3]

Doesn't this imply that all of the dead, both the saved and unsaved, are resurrected at that time in order to see His coming?

No, the souls of the wicked dead are conscious in the 'torments' area of hades right now, same as the souls of the righteous dead are, in paradise. Jesus made that plain in His parable.

 

[robycop3]

Robycop3, you are missing the distinction Christ made between the "Great Tribulation" and other periods of tribulation in history following that. It is NOT the sheer amount of blood lost, nor of the overwhelming number of casualties, nor of unparalleled numbers of destroyed cities, nor of the unequalled intensity and spread of plagues. The difference was not to be in the SHEER QUANTITY of these things, but in the PARTICULAR TYPE of tribulation that was going to be experienced during that "Great Tribulation". Christ told us what would make that first-century period a "Great Tribulation", and it was the coming seven-fold oppression by unclean spirits upon that wicked generation in its "last state" before God "shattered the mighty and holy people". You and I will never experience the entire demonic realm descending upon a city, such as the city of Jerusalem experienced in AD 66-70 when Satan and his devils were all imprisoned within Jerusalem's walls. Since the Satanic realm was destroyed back then, according to God's prophecies, a tribulation such as that one which the Jews experienced during those "days of vengeance" will never occur again.

You might take your tall tales of evil spirits imprisoned to Spielberg or Lukas & make royalties from a film one of them might make from it.

The great trib will hit the WHOLE EARTH, with its main focus upon the beast/antichrist's empirical seat of power. it hasn't yet happened, of course.

The events in Jerusalem were the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" upon that generation of Jews, having nothing to do with the coming great trib. You paid no attention to what Jesus said in Matt. 24 or what's written in Rev. 13 & 16.

 

[robycop3]

Enoch is the single exception in all of human history of one who "was translated that he should not see death". No one else has, or ever will have that translation experience. Enoch reappears in history as Melchizedek - the one who in those days had no obvious beginning of life nor end of days as Hebrews described him. Melchizedek was still alive on earth when Hebrews was being written, because Heb. 7:8 says, "...it is witnessed that HE LIVETH." Present tense for that time period.

God chose that one individual man, Enoch / aka Melchizedek, for a unique purpose: to provide the pattern type of the deathless high priesthood order of Melchizedek that Christ would fulfill by His own deathless high priesthood over the New Covenant.

You're simply chock-full of tall tales! They'd be humorous if the subject wasn't so serious.

Enoch has nothing to do with Mel. You pulled that one out of thin air. Are you gonna tell us next that Trump is the antichrist?

 

[robycop3]

He came back in a chariot of fire, and went by the name Elijah. "Yahweh is my God" is a fitting name Enoch chose to go by.

No, once Enoch was translated, his earthly time was over.

 

[DavidPT]

No, the souls of the wicked dead are conscious in the 'torments' area of hades right now, same as the souls of the righteous dead are, in paradise. Jesus made that plain in His parable.

But how can anyone see Jesus' coming, from hell? Are you suggesting that souls in hell can see what is taking place on earth and up above the earth, as in the sky above, since that is how Jesus will be coming when every eye sees Him, while they are being tormented awaiting their bodily resurrection? IOW, right now as we speak, souls in hell are able to see with their eyes what is taking place on the earth?