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Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by robycop3, Aug 22, 2021.

  1. 3 Resurrections

    3 Resurrections That's 666 YEARS, folks

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    This is the KJV translation, isn't it? They have arbitrarily inserted the word "and they (ALSO) which pierced him". The KJV translators failed to understand the intent of the little Greek word "KAI" in this verse. In doing so, they have created a confused mess.

    Think about it. If "EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM" truly means that every eye of mankind in the entire globe, past and present to that time would see the returning Christ, then what on earth would be the purpose of saying "And they ALSO which pierced Him"? Would not that group who pierced Christ already be included in that "EVERY EYE" category? Then what would be the purpose of making a distinction between these groups?

    The answer is in examining the usage of the Greek word "kai", which in one sense can be used as a conjunction, meaning "in addition to", or it can ALSO be used in an explanatory sense, meaning "specifically", or "namely". An example of this usage would be James 3:9, "Therewith we bless God and (kai) the Father, and therewith we curse men who according to the likeness of God are made." This means we bless God, (kai) NAMELY the Father with our tongues. There aren't two Gods being blessed. Just one, who is God the Father.

    There are many other examples in scripture of the word "kai" being used in this explanatory sense, and not as a conjunction meaning "in addition to something". Revelation 1:7 is one of these verses. The intended meaning is that "every eye shall see him, (kai) NAMELY or SPECIFICALLY those who pierced Him." Once every eye of those tribes who pierced Him saw Christ returning to the Mount of Olives for a resurrection in which they would not be able to participate, those members of the Jewish tribes who pierced Him would indeed mourn that they were not included in that resurrection and return to heaven with Christ.
     
  2. 3 Resurrections

    3 Resurrections That's 666 YEARS, folks

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    Of course they didn't, I agree! But you are speaking of the common misunderstanding of just what the rapture would actually entail. NOWHERE in scripture are we given a promise that the bodies of living saints would ever be translated without dying, and would then be able to be raptured. The promise we are given is that "it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, and after that the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). No getting around this rule. ALL the saints must die the one time before they are resurrected in their glorified, incorruptible body form.

    Sorry, no "POOF" of vanishing, living saints was ever predicted in scripture. People have totally misunderstood the meaning of "those who are ALIVE and REMAIN" being caught up. These were saints in the first century who had ALREADY BEEN MADE ALIVE by a resurrection process (like the Matthew 27:52-53 saints), but who had "remained" (perileipomenoi) on earth in a sealed, reserved status until Christ's AD 70 return, when they left this world together with the rest of the newly-resurrected saints.
     
  3. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Short time is the end of 6000 years. It is no longer 6000 years in length, a long time, but only years left, a short time.

    You cannot say the short time at the end of 6000 years is the same thing as loosed for a little season after being bound for 1000 years. Context explains the difference.
     
  4. Ed Parenteau

    Ed Parenteau Member Supporter

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    9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were watching, and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight. (He is now in a cloud out of sight)
    10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going(still in the cloud out of their sight), then behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, (When the 2 angels come on the site, Jesus was already in a cloud out of their sight)11and they said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
    They clearly watched Him go into heaven in a cloud out of their sight. Therefore, He's coming in the clouds and there's nothing about returning in the flesh.
    Rev 1:7Behold, He cometh in clouds.. Again, the ones who pierced Him are long dead and gone.
    The following verses in their context say who would see Him when He comes. Just use basic rules of grammar with regard to pronouns and their antecedent noun agreement. I'm assuming, of course, that the grammar is also inspired and correct.
    Matthew 16:27
    For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. 28Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

    Mark 8:38
    If anyone is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in His Father's glory with the holy angels."

    Mark 9:1
    Then Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God arrive with power."

    Mark 14:62
    "I am," said Jesus, "and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven."

    Luke 21:27
    At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory
     
  5. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here you go again with this "ABOUT TO" nonsense. I already showed how the Greek word mellō (Strong's G3195) does not have to refer to something that is "ABOUT TO" happen soon and I gave the example of Matthew 11:14 where Elijah was "ABOUT TO" come for about 400 years.
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Newbie

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    I beg your pardon, but Scripture INDEED prophesy that the living saints shall be translated at the rapture:
    1 Cor. 15:[/color=red]51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [/color]

    Paul wrote "we" as he didn't know if the events would occur during his life or not. We see they didn't nor have they yet occurred. But when the rapture happens, the beast will have an explanation as to why millions suddenly vanished, & most of the world will accept his excuse.
     
  7. 3 Resurrections

    3 Resurrections That's 666 YEARS, folks

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    Spiritual Jew, you cannot erase the imminence factor of all the "Mello" term usage in scripture. There are far too many examples of this which clearly denote that something would happen in the very near future when this term is used. I could pull up multiplied examples, but I have grands coming for the weekend shortly, and I will be busy!

    The one example you gave of "Elias who is ABOUT TO (mello) come" was spoken by Jesus just prior to John's martyrdom. You and I know that "Elias" as John the Baptist was going to be manifested before the Great and Dreadful day of the Lord, and turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, and the disobdient to the wisdom of the just, or God would come and strike the earth with a curse.

    A question for you: Jesus and His disciples raised many from the dead during His earthly ministry and afterward. And the many Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints included prophets among their number, as "gifts" given to men after Christ's ascension. Do you not think that either Jesus or his disciples would have chosen to raise the prophet John the Baptist from the dead as one of those selected for a resurrection? Think about it. Even Herod thought that John the Baptist was raised from the dead when He thought Jesus might be a resurrected John the Baptist. If John the Baptist was resurrected in those early first-century years, he would indeed have SOON been ABOUT TO COME into that role of Elias restoring all things under the active New Covenant, as the prophets and the angel foretold before his birth.

    At any rate, even if you choose to dismiss this possibility above, you still have a problem with the multiplied times in scripture that "mello" is used to describe an imminent event's occurrence. To completely erase this usage of "mello" from scripture does not deal honestly with the language.
     
  8. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty sure both you, SJ, and SG think the same thing. You just place it in the 1st century, and they place it "now".

    It is not the same event though. One happens at the Second Coming, and one happens 1000 years later. Amil will not concede that point.
     
  9. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't buy this explanation whatsoever. The prophecy had nothing to do with what you're talking about, it had to do with the one who would prepare the way for Christ, which is what John the Baptist did BEFORE his death.

    I don't believe those who were resurrected, as recorded in Matthew 27:52-53, were resurrected unto bodily immortality. Paul taught that the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality was Christ first and then those who belong to Christ at His second coming (1 Cor 15:22-23).

    I don't dismiss that. I acknowledge that the word does not HAVE to refer to something that will happen soon and I gave an example of that. Can you acknowledge that?
     
  10. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    His view is different than ours, so it makes no sense for you to say we think the same thing.

    We're not going to concede something that isn't true.
     
  11. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    It is the same event, unless you concede.

    The end of the 6000 years of sin and Satan devieving the world, according to you, end at the same time as the 1000 years without sin and Satan decieving the world.

    He just ends the 1000 years in the first century like claninja. He puts it at the end of 4000 years, instead of 6000 years.
     
  12. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    This is a classic sermon on the "abomination that causes desolation" part of Matthew 24, and then the Son of man on the clouds. He doesn't cover every single detail, but it's a good introduction to the Sydney Anglican position on this chapter.
    The readings start at 22:00 minutes in and then the talk.


    Then there's a follow up talk below on the second half of Matthew 24. The parable of the days of Noah proves that we cannot know - the people were all marrying and partying like the Noah thing was a mystery. The whole point of quoting Noah is how utterly unknowable Jesus' return really is.

    Matthew 2436 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

    Indeed, Jesus here makes the whole futurist reading of Revelation laughable. Because if ANY of the things in Revelation were to happen as interpreted by 'literal futurists' then we'd know, for sure, that there was a 7 year timetable, here we go! But this directly contradicts Jesus own words here. Jesus says life will be so normal no one will suspect a thing. They'll be making long term plans like marrying and partying all like nothing's wrong!

    The thief doesn't know, the bad servant doesn't know, and the young women with their bridal welcoming lamps don't know. Indeed, the whole point of the parable of the 10 young women is that only those who plan for Jesus to delay a long time are doing the right thing!

    The thing I love about Sydney Anglican Amillennialism is that it is incredibly practical and just rings absolutely true of what Jesus is saying here. We cannot know when Jesus will return. It may indeed feel long delayed. So what are we to do? Stay true to the gospel, serve God well, and remain ready throughout your life. It's practical, gospel focussed, and deeply soul-searching - not all this end-times tables guessing nonsense. Starts at 21 minutes in.

    (Also, please do not text that mobile number questions as it is only for during the service.)
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Or like manner doesn’t mean that and instead means something else.

    Right… it just conveniently “exactly the same” in the ways you want it to be to support your view, but different in ways when “exactly the same” doesn’t support your view….
    Amazing!

    The text is clear, He was to return in like manner as the aspotles saw him go "into Heaven"
    How did Jesus enter heaven?

    "Out of their Sight", Hidden from their eyes by a cloud. Acts 1:9

    Plus, Jesus Christ most certainly came in like manner as He left, in Fulfillment of Acts 1:11, on at least two occasions, as testified by the apostolic witness.

    It happened to Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-9) and to Stephen at His stoning.(Acts 7:54-56)
    You are of course free to reject the apostolic testimony of these post ascension, "in like manner" comings in fulfillment of Acts 1:11.

    I'm inclined to believe the apostolic witness.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2021
  14. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Corinthian 5:10

    But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:10
     
  15. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    It is apparent you do not know what you are talking about and you have the spirit of the world and not of grace in your response. Scofield, Lindsey, and Lahaye are all proponents of dispensationalism who affirm the seven epochs of the seven churches. Even your own response concedes the view. If there are types of all 7 churches today then it follows that there were types throughout the past two thousand years also. The point is that only one can be the zeitgeist at any time. Only one can be dominant and it is no coincidence that there is tremendous correspondence between what the seven churches state and the history of the church in this age. Obviously, you are feeble in the history of the Church.
     
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So it’s salvation by works in the new covenant then?
     
  17. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Does Roman 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 say anything about salvation? You are putting words in Paul’s mouth! Paul affirms salvation is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) and that good works will follow in the succeeding verse. It’s obvious to those who have eyes the see and ears that listen that the works in Roman 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 are the same as in Ephesians 2:10.
     
  18. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    That is ridiculous. There are two groupings here: the Jews and the Gentiles. You have to alter this in order to justify Preterism. Every eye of mankind in the entire globe is going to see Him when He comes. The dead wicked are currently in Hades. The dead in Christ are currently with Him and are going to return with Him when He comes the second time.

    AD70 was NOT the parousia of Jesus. There are absolutely no witnesses that testify that Jesus came in AD70. No eye saw Him. That is a figment of Preterist theology. That is because He never came then. He is rather coming in power and final glory on the last day.

    Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70?
    Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him?
    Did the Gentiles also wail because of Him?


    Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

    The Scriptures talk much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming. This is clearly an arrival that will shake the world.
     
  19. Ed Parenteau

    Ed Parenteau Member Supporter

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    This sounds a lot like a futurist addition in order to make doctrine fit the scripture because those who pierced Him are long dead. If I'm wrong, then show me the scripture that says it.
    Revelation 22:18
    I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
    1 Corinthians 4:6
    Brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written. Then you will not take pride in one man over another.
     
  20. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    There is a Partial-Preterism Amil view that has a lot of respect in Sydney Anglican circles - but I'm not convinced. But it asks some very serious questions of the Olivet discourse.

    Now, being Reformed Sydney Anglican Amil - we of course believe Jesus will return to judge the world. But that's more from other NT verses about this subject - especially in the Epistles. The Olivet discourse? Well, there's been a bit of a shift in thinking. Why is there such an emphasis on "This generation?" - the generation alive at the time Jesus was speaking to the disciples? At different times, depending on what I've been reading, I find myself drifting between the two positions.

    Standard Reformed Amil:-
    That in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, two questions are being asked about two different periods of time. The first is of course the disciples - acting like country town bumpkins in the big city - exclaiming "Look at these huge buildings Jesus!" Then Jesus shocks them to the core - they're all coming down! I mean, WOW! To Jews that immediately makes them think of the end of the world. Isn't the temple the sign that God is with them? Surely the destruction of the temple must mean the end of Israel - the end of the kingdom of God - the end of the very WORLD?

    So in the Standard view, Jesus answers two questions about two periods of time.

    1. When would the temple be destroyed? The one the disciples could see before them with their very eyes. When would THAT temple be left with not one stone on another? Jesus answers that when they see "Nation will rise against nation" (Mark 13), "Jerusalem being surrounded by armies" (Luke 21), and an increase in persecution of the disciples - these were signs of the end of THAT temple. They were to get out of town! In other words, when THAT temple is about to be destroyed it will be predictable, local, and avoidable. But don't be pregnant - or get out of town early if you are!
    (Futurists trying to argue that is actually talking about a hypothetical third temple in this conversation is laughable and absurd. The disciples exclaimed about THAT temple, and Jesus answered about THAT temple.)

    2. When would the LAST DAY happen? In contrast to AD70, the Last Day (or That Day) will be unpredictable, universal, and unavoidable. In contrast to the false Messiah's gathering out alone in the desert, Jesus explains his return will be inescapable and obvious, like the lightning from the east to west. He hasn't quite finished talking about the temple ("these things"), but as he has just mentioned false Messiah's with false miracles - he wants to highlight how different his Return will be.

    “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."​

    Now he finishes talking about the end of the temple era. Luke 21 says:

    "29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

    32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."​

    Some suggest that the parable of the fig tree means they should recognise who Jesus is, and that his arrival should of course mean huge changes like the temple being destroyed and no longer necessary. It's not so much about recognising Last Days timing as simply recognising who Jesus is and what his being there means. Everything is going to change. His sacrifice on our behalf means the end of the temple system - all of which is going to happen in that generation. And it did!

    But now we move on to the meat of the Last Day - as after talking about his sacrifice, Jesus answers their question about the end of the age. Luke 21:

    32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.​

    Matthew 24 mentions Noah's flood, the thief in the night, the parable of the wise and the unfaithful servant, and the next chapter has the bridegroom and the 10 maidens. Then the conversation moves on to bearing fruit for the kingdom while we wait as in the parable of the tenants - the bags of gold invested wisely for the master. Then there's the sheep and the goats - showing that Jesus return is Judgement Day.

    Boltian Amil: (By Dr Peter Bolt of Moore Theological College - the Sydney Anglicans):
    Now that we've briefly looked at the two questions and two time-periods in the Standard Reformed Evangelical view - it's time for the Boltian view. This one is more difficult - and involves tracing a LOT more symbolism through the bible than the Standard view.

    But in summary - their question about the end of THAT temple brings Jesus to describe - in apocalyptic language - his death and resurrection and the chaos of the change in the ages. That one of the primary passages so many read as his Return to Earth is actually describing his glorious post-resurrection Return to the Father. Ask yourself as you read this - where is Jesus coming to - the Earth - or back into the throne room of the Ancient of Days?

    Matthew 24 says: “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

    But what if we go back and investigate what is being quoted here, in context? Daniel 7:

    "3 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."​

    Peter Bolt asks us to consider where the Son of Man is going? That basic comprehension question has potentially staggering implications for our understanding of the passage. Because it is quite clear that the Son of Man is NOT coming on the clouds of heaven to earth but to the Ancient of Days - back to the Father! What if Jesus is saying the temple is going to be destroyed because JESUS is going to be killed - rise again - and go back to the Father to rule his kingdom spiritually (my kingdom is not of this world) through the church?

    In that case:-
    "All the peoples of the earth mourning" is about the gospel going into various people groups and languages and people mourning as the become Christians, mourn their sin, and mourn the horror that it took the sacrifice of the Son of Man on the cross to deal with their sin.

    "Angels" can be messengers - declaring with a loud clear call the gospel - and gathering through their gospel work people from every tribe and tongue and nation.

    Now, personally I was wavering and going back to the Standard view. But then recently - on these forums - I was discussing how we've been in the so-called "Last Days" for 2000 years and counting. Peter explains Pentecost as the start of the Last Days in Acts 2. But look what he quotes! There are the Apostles - having received the Holy Spirit in power for the first time - and declaring the gospel. But Peter goes and quotes something that sounds very Last Days in his explanation of the Apostles receiving the gospel and Holy Spirit! Acts 2:-

    No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

    17 “‘In the last days, God says,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your young men will see visions,
    your old men will dream dreams.
    18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
    and they will prophesy.
    19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
    and signs on the earth below,
    blood and fire and billows of smoke.
    20 The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
    21 And everyone who calls
    on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

    The commentaries I read said that this 'wonders in the heavens' language is instability in the world and a sense of the finiteness of our time, and our turmoil in his world - and reminds people that we do not have forever. The gospel must be declared. Seeing such "last days" sounding language used by Peter to describe the gospel might just give the Boltian view more credibility. Also, if all that language really is about the gospel events - then it really did happen back in THAT generation.

    This is a huge discussion in Sydney Anglican circles and I might not have done it justice. I have heard sermons from both the Standard and Boltian views on Olivet passages. I remain to be solidly convinced one way or the other. The main thing? Nothing here says anything about the end times will be predictable. Wars and rumours of wars and persecutions may have been specifically about what the disciples faced before AD70 - but also generically describe life in the last 2000 years. Which is also what I think Revelation is - a general description of life after Jesus ascended into heaven and before his Return.
     
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