Preterism Debunked

[jgr]

The first thing to keep in mind is: DNA testing will not magically build a family tree for you. Ancestry.com is clearly aware of this, because their advertisements for DNA testing emphasize identifying your ethnicity, not identifying ancestors. If all four of your grandparents are Ashkenazim (Jew whose ancestors came from Central or Eastern Europe), Ancestry's ethnicity piece will only tell you that you are 93-98% European Jewish with trace amounts of other things. If you are not Jewish but you have reason to suspect that, like former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, you or one of your ancestors converted to survive the Holocaust, this will very definitely show it. If you were adopted and have reason to believe one or both of your birth parents was Jewish, ethnicity will certainly show it. If you have a family story about a relatively recent intermarriage, this might also confirm it for you. But other than that, basic ethnicity isn't going to tell an Ashkenazi anything useful. So what else can DNA testing do for you?
(jewfaq.blogspot.com)

Does the presence of the genetic marker qualify one as a Jew?

Is the presence or absence of the genetic marker a criterion of any interest to God?

 

[BABerean2]

So what else can DNA testing do for you?

It has been useful to a number of women who have rare DNA markers for certain types of breast cancer.

I will not spend much time discussing the "Who is the baby's daddy?" television shows by Jerry Springer.

No living human's relationship to God is determined by who their parents would be, based on 1 John 2:22-23, and 1 Timothy 1:4.

.

 

[Grip Docility]

It has been useful to a number of women who have rare DNA markers for certain types of breast cancer.

I will not spend much time discussing the "Who is the baby's daddy?" television shows by Jerry Springer.

No living human's relationship to God is determined by who their parents would be, based on 1 John 2:22-23, and 1 Timothy 1:4.

.

And yet you did.

 

[Grip Docility]

Does the presence of the genetic marker qualify one as a Jew?

Is the presence or absence of the genetic marker a criterion of any interest to God?

Went to the optometrist...

Noticed that you you’re talking in circles...

If genetics didn’t matter to God... then why does Matthew and Luke include...

A genealogy?!?

Hmmm... could it be that Jesus met prophecy through... “Lineage”...

I have an idea... go through this thing called the Old Testament and count the genealogies in there too...

 

[Grip Docility]

Have you "seen" your optometrist lately?

Romans 11 just happens to mean the whole chapter.

Verse 28: Before becoming believers, they were enemies of the gospel. After becoming believers, i.e. becoming the elect, they were beloved (Colossians 3:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:4) on account of the fathers.

Verse 32: God has mercy on them all. Will they all become believers because of His mercy? Sadly, no. God has mercy on the entire world. Will the entire world become believers because of His mercy? Sadly, no.

Oops... I said Romans 8-11 and I keep nodding to the whole Bible...

You seem to be coming up with excuses to support Supersession... but unfortunately... Israel remains Israel and the Body of Christ remains the body of Christ.

“Enemies of the Gospel” .... “Friends of the Gospel”...

One was left desolate... and the other thrived...

Same... vs. Different...

You guys have the best cherry pickers! Where do ya rent those whacky things?

 

[Grip Docility]

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

His Son is the Heir of all things. That includes the land and all other OT promises without exception. That is the ultimate fulfillment of Zechariah, Joel, and the whole of the OT.

And... that wasn’t Joel and Zechariah...

Oops... See... Hebrews is in the NT and Joel and Zechariah are in the OT...

Easy mistake.

 

[BABerean2]

If genetics didn’t matter to God... then why does Matthew and Luke include...

A genealogy?!?

Hmmm... could it be that Jesus met prophecy through... “Lineage”...

I have an idea... go through this thing called the Old Testament and count the genealogies in there too...

You have just admitted that the most important genealogy in the Bible is the one that belongs to Jesus Christ.

Paul would agree with you in Galatians 3:16.
This verse also reveals that the Abrahamic promise was made only to the one seed (Christ), and not the many seeds as you are implying.

Since the most important genealogy in the Bible is the one that leads to Christ, all of those that follow are now meaningless, as found in 1 Timothy 1:4.

There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon rain forest and a modern descendant of Jacob living in the middle east.
The both need Christ for the same reason and in the same way.

There is no Plan B.



Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.

Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God.

.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Jesus... “No man knows the day nor the hour”...

Acts 1... “it is not for me to reveal things the Father has appointed”

Revelation... The dead are raised in Physical Corpreal Form

Full and Partial Preterism claim 70 AD is the fulfillment of the day and the hour...

Problem! The dead haven’t been raised in physical Corpreal form yet...

Thus... the Day and the Hour remains UNKNOWN while preterists seem to think they know more than God the Son while He walked this earth, before His Death, Burial and Ressurection...

I think, to be fair, there are indicators these events were at the least being foreshadowed, bac in 90AD and before. But, this is common for prophecy of this magnitude. An initial foreshadowing, then, finally, sometime afterwards the real thing.

Good post, though, good reminders.

(I mentioned "to be fair", because I view there as being significant errors in all the major doctrines on these matters. Heaven is far stranger then what mere human beings know or comprehend, and Revelation is a masterpiece of encoded information. All of the major end times doctrines were created by men. Usually recited and believed in, just because someone told them to.)

 

[claninja]

Full and Partial Preterism claim 70 AD is the fulfillment of the day and the hour...

70AD is a year, not a day or hour. I have never met a preterist who claims to know the exact day or hour.

Problem! The dead haven’t been raised in physical Corpreal form yet...

I think this is a great point to make against someone who is a FULL preterist. Partial preterism concludes that just about all prophecy is fulfilled except the 2nd advent and resurrection. So a partial preterist would agree with you.

Jesus... “No man knows the day nor the hour”...

Problem! The dead haven’t been raised in physical Corpreal form yet...

1.) And at the time of Christ, no man had ascended to the Father:

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man

2.) Jesus did not go directly to heaven when he died:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

3.) If there is no resurrection from the dead, we die. No one goes to the Father before the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:32 If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

4.) not even the OT saints went to be in the presence of the Father

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised,
________________________________________________________________________________

To debunk Full preterism, one must believe and provide scripture showing that there is no one currently in the presence of the Father. In other words no resurrection yet. For if Christ did not ascend to the father until after the resurrection, then why would believers ascend to the Father before the resurrection?

 

[claninja]

Israel remains Israel and the Body of Christ remains the body of Christ.

No one inherits anything outside the body of Christ, whether they are Jew or gentile, OT saints or NT convert

And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:39-40

 

[Grip Docility]

You have just admitted that the most important genealogy in the Bible is the one that belongs to Jesus Christ.

Paul would agree with you in Galatians 3:16.
This verse also reveals that the Abrahamic promise was made only to the one seed (Christ), and not the many seeds as you are implying.

Since the most important genealogy in the Bible is the one that leads to Christ, all of those that follow are now meaningless, as found in 1 Timothy 1:4.

There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon rain forest and a modern descendant of Jacob living in the middle east.
The both need Christ for the same reason and in the same way.

There is no Plan B.



Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.

Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God.

.

I’ll put it this way...

God either set a people apart... and then threw them away... or didn’t throw them away.

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do... either means what it says or doesn’t.

Romans 11 specifically states for love of their ancestors, though they are blind, stubborn and enemies of the gospel.

The last verses of Matthew 23 is pretty important, because Jesus ends with ... until you say ... “Blessed is He Who comes in the name”

I understand that it’s fun to take Jewish birthright and pretend the Bible is about America and the West...

But Jew gotta see that there’s a lot said about Israel.

 

[Grip Docility]

No one inherits anything outside the body of Christ, whether they are Jew or gentile, OT saints or NT convert

And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:39-40

Ofcoarse it’s all through, by and for The Son...

But... He isn’t done with the Land and people of Jacob yet.

That’s written all throughout scripture!

 

[Grip Docility]

70AD is a year, not a day or hour. I have never met a preterist who claims to know the exact day or hour.



I think this is a great point to make against someone who is a FULL preterist. Partial preterism concludes that just about all prophecy is fulfilled except the 2nd advent and resurrection. So a partial preterist would agree with you.




1.) And at the time of Christ, no man had ascended to the Father:

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man

2.) Jesus did not go directly to heaven when he died:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

3.) If there is no resurrection from the dead, we die. No one goes to the Father before the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:32 If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

4.) not even the OT saints went to be in the presence of the Father

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised,
________________________________________________________________________________

To debunk Full preterism, one must believe and provide scripture showing that there is no one currently in the presence of the Father. In other words no resurrection yet. For if Christ did not ascend to the father until after the resurrection, then why would believers ascend to the Father before the resurrection?

Oh my...

I’ve snagged a “Full Preterist”...

I’m just going to say... if you think all Prophecy is fulfilled...

You’re head is really deep in the sand.

The saints in heaven become intolerant of the things on earth in Revelation and ask God how much longer in relation to “The Day of the Lord”.

Full preterism is a house of cards built on lofty theological nonsense that denies God’s entire writings... through mankind.

 

[claninja]

Oh my...

I’ve snagged a “Full Preterist”...

I’m just going to say... if you think all Prophecy is fulfilled...

You’re head is really deep in the sand.

The saints in heaven become intolerant of the things on earth in Revelation and ask God how much longer in relation to “The Day of the Lord”.

Full preterism is a house of cards built on lofty theological nonsense that denies God’s entire writings... through mankind.

I was actually hoping for an interesting discussion on this subject, hence I stated in the previous post:

I think this is a great point to make against someone who is a FULL preterist

So maybe you could help me understand how/why you believe people are currently in the presence of the father if the rising again has not occurred yet.

Or why Jesus ascended AFTER the resurrection, while believers will ascend before the ressurection?

 

[BABerean2]

Romans 11 specifically states for love of their ancestors, though they are blind, stubborn and enemies of the gospel.

You are ignoring the fact that there are two groups of Israelites in Romans chapter 11.

Paul starts the passage this way in Romans 11:1-5.
During the time of Elijah, one group of Israelites worshipped Baal, and a remnant of 7,000 remained faithful to God.
Paul said there was also a remnant during his time. That would have to be a remnant of Israelites.

There are two groups of "they" later in the same passage.
One group of "they" rejected the Messiah and are enemies of the Gospel, while the other group of "they" accepted Christ and are the elect remnant.

Part of the Israelites are blinded, instead of all of the Israelites being "partially" blinded.

Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church, made of believing Israelites and believing Gentiles.
The branches broken off can be grafted back into the tree, through faith in Christ.

There is no Plan B, outside of the New Covenant Church.

.

 

[claninja]

Ofcoarse it’s all through, by and for The Son...

But... He isn’t done with the Land and people of Jacob yet.

That’s written all throughout scripture!

Would you be able to provide New Testament scripture showing that the physical land of Israel is a promise yet to be fulfilled to the body of Christ?

 

[claninja]

Honestly jgr, who would know who was an authentic Jew?

Israel has been conquered many times in history, how could you identify pure Jewish DNA?

The Jews might claim they are pure Jews, but how would they know they were not the descendants of proselytes?

Isn’t that the point jgr was making? That after 2000 years since the Jews were scattered by the romans how could their be someone 100% Jewish?

 

[claninja]

God either set a people apart... and then threw them away... or didn’t throw them away.

Isn’t the purpose of romans 9-11 to address this? Did Gods promises fail to natural Israel? Did he throw natural Israel away?

Paul clearly states no, Gods promises to natural Israel did not fail because....

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Romans 9:6,8

It is only the remnant saved of natural Israel that is true Israel.

 

[jgr]

Went to the optometrist...

Noticed that you you’re talking in circles...

If genetics didn’t matter to God... then why does Matthew and Luke include...

A genealogy?!?

Hmmm... could it be that Jesus met prophecy through... “Lineage”...

I have an idea... go through this thing called the Old Testament and count the genealogies in there too...

God slew genetic "purebred" Israelites by the hundreds of thousands in the Old Testament. (Exodus 32:28; Numbers 16:49; Numbers 25:9; 1 Samuel 4:10; 1 Samuel 6:19; 2 Chronicles 13:17; et al). What were the reasons? Why didn't their pedigree save them?

But He didn't slay them all. (1 Kings 19:18). Was it because of their pedigree? Or was there another reason that had nothing to do with pedigree?

 

[Grip Docility]

Would you be able to provide New Testament scripture showing that the physical land of Israel is a promise yet to be fulfilled to the body of Christ?

Acts 1