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Preterism and the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by frost, Jul 9, 2003.

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  1. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    JESUS SERVANT:
    I know you guys think that this world will be made perfect over the course of time, but you ignore much of what the Bible says in this belief.

    GW:
    The world will CONTINUE to undergo Christianization--it is already being revolutionized by the power of the Cross--for "of the increase of His government there is no end" (Isa 9:6-7).


    JESUS SERVANT:
    This world will never be perfect, hence the need for a new earth.

    GW:
    In the common usage of the Hebrew prophets, an exchanging of "heavens and earth" simply meant some major historic change or shift. There have been many such dissolutions of "heavens and earth" since the time of Noah, according to the OT prophets. See:

    "Heavens and Earth" Destructions in Old Testament Times
    * 2 Sam 22:1,7-16 = the end of Saul's Kingdom
    * Jer 4:23-5:1 = 586 BC conquest of Jerusalem by Babylon
    * Ezekiel 32:2-11 = Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Egypt
    * Haggai 2:6-9/21-23 = God's judgment against the Persians/promotion of Zerubabel in rebuilt Temple
    * Habakuk 3:1-15 = the Exodus and conquest of Caanan
    * Judges 5:4-5 = the Exodus under Moses and Joshua
    * Micah 1:1-9 = the 8th cent. BC judgment upon Jerusalem/Samaria by Assyrians
    * Nahum 1:1-8 = God's judgment on Nineveh
    * Zephaniah 1:1-7 = God's judgment on 6th century BC Jerusalem



    Also, St. Peter and the writer of Hebrews spoke in this same manner. St. Peter claimed to be living in some "heavens and earth" that was different from the ones Noah lived in (2 Peter 3:5-7), and the writer of Hebrews claims that the earth was shaken at Sinai but that Heavens and Earth were shaken via Calvary and the removal of the Mosaic-Jewish covenant (Heb 12:18-28/10:9). By these sayings the prophets did not mean a new planet and outerspace as you seem to be suggesting. We must read the bible in light of the bible itself. Let scripture interpret scripture. Let the Holy Ghost-inspired prophets interpret the prophets.



    JESUS SERVANT:
    The end of the age (old covenant) was solidified at Pentecost in Acts which began the Church age

    GW:
    Then why did the Jerusalem Church still keep the Mosaic Temple precepts up to AD 70 (see Book of Acts)? And what then did "this age" and "age to come" mean in Matthew 12:30-32? Jesus spoke those words while yet in the Old Covenant era and before Pentecost. Preterists righly demonstrate that "this age" meant the Mosaic Covenant epoch of BC 1500-AD70, and "the age to come" means the New Covenant era beyond the Mosaic world which fled away with the Temple at AD 70.



    JESUS SERVANT:
    You full preterists spend so much time trying to be right that you miss the Gospel entirely. Get born again of the Spirit of God and you'll know the truth.

    GW:
    I am born again of the Spirit of God. Most preterists I know are evangelicals.



    JESUS SERVANT:
    So they argue, fuss and fight while satan is having a field day because as long as he keeps us busy "discussing" we won't be doing, feeding, clothing, loving and sharing.

    GW:
    Satan was defeated by Jesus Christ (Matt 28:18; Heb 2:14-15; Jn 12:31; 1Jn 3:8; 2 Tim 1:10).
     
  2. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    The Holy Spirit sent me to webster's for Both athiests and Faithful have agreed to abide by it.To be more specific i use the 5th, 6th, and 7th editions with backup of the Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary 2nd edition.
    The reason for this is simple, those not of the churches would never accept the definations of religious dictionaries.
    But by these four, i have defeated all men, both claiming to be christian, and athiest. And all agreed to the definations of Mr. Webster. What has got thy goat is you have also been defeated, and now in desperation Beg for more examples of where generation as used by Jesus refers to Race and Kind(in similitude)
    So here are more examples of this use of generation:
    Matthew 11:16, 12:34, 12:39,12:41,12:42,12:45,16:4,17:17,23:33,23:36,24:34,Mark 8:12,8:38,9:19,13:30,Luke 7:31,9:41,11:29,11:30,11:31,11:32,11:50,11:51,16:8(one of my special favorites),17:25,21:32.
    This should cover all the time Jesus The Christ used the word generation and it applies to all those men, and those between this time and all those of this time. amen
    i am nothing0 and 110% correct by The Holy Ghost.
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  3. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    For the many came bearing forth much rope to give me hoping that i would in the use of it HANG myself.
    Yet by The Holy Spirit/Ghost,those same men only came tripping and stumbling over that very same rope.
    So then little ones gather up ALL thy fellows and bring thy mountains of rope so that when by The Holy Spirit i am given to remove The five equidistance sided, SEVEN faceted sword of The Lord God i have by Paul received as part of The Full Armour of God: i who am nothing may at ONE sweep fell all thy mountains, and the men that built them.
    Now i tell The Sheep of The LORd, Jesus comes EXACTLY as Jacob described to thee.
    The Sword of The Lord has two Sharp edges for it cuts both the flesh and the spirit of men. And those men not being The Children of The Lord GOd Jesus Christ of Nazareth. amen
    i am nothing0
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus.
    amen
    Please try harder men!
     
  4. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    Whereas satan is defeated and fell Before man was created, men continue in this day to be deceived by satan.
    i am nothing0
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  5. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    ADELPIT:
    What has got thy goat is you have also been defeated, and now in desperation Beg for more examples of where generation as used by Jesus refers to Race and Kind (in similitude). So here are more examples of this use of generation:
    Matthew 11:16, 12:34, 12:39,12:41,12:42,12:45,16:4,17:17,23:33,23:36,24:34,Mark 8:12,8:38,9:19,13:30,Luke 7:31,9:41,11:29,11:30,11:31,11:32,11:50,11:51,16:8(one of my special favorites),17:25,21:32.

    GW:
    Christ and the apostles use the phrase "THIS GENERATION" regularly, and there are about 20 places in the new testament where they use it. In every single case it means their contemporary generation to whom they are speaking. One need only look back to the beginning of the Olivet Discourse at Matt 23:36 to see it is so.

    You may use Mr. Webster if you'd like. I like to use Christ and the apostles themselves.
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian

    Satan was defeated by Jesus Christ (Matt 28:18; Heb 2:14-15; Jn 12:31; 1Jn 3:8; 2 Tim 1:10). The Elect are no longer deceived nor under the curse nor bound by death. The old things have passed away, and all things are new in Christ, the new creature, the new Adam.
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,931
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    JS, the Gospel IS Everlasting already. This is not something we are waiting for, as you appear to be saying.

    What do you believe is the purpose of the gospel anyway?

    You have a few difficulties with that stance JS, I'll bring up a couple for you to address:

    One is that The Bible teaches that the old covenant age had not yet reached it's end as of 30 years AFTER Pentacost. (Hebrews 8:13)

    Another is that the disciples asked Jesus about the "end of the age" Before pentacost.(Matt 24:3) There is no way they could have been asking about the end of an age that they had no idea was even coming, or that hadn't even begun at the time they asked the question.

    They clearly were asking about the end of the age they were born into and living in at the time they asked the question. There is no other explaination that honors this fact.

    You seem to have this notion that the disciples could have asked about, or were somehow concerned about, the end of an age that they had no idea was even coming.

    Also you seem to be saying that Jesus came to usher in an age (at pentacost) that His followers immediatly required deliverance from.

    I'm curious how you reconcile this.



    The administration is clearly different. The way God deals with man is absolutely different now than before Jesus. Same as the administration before noah was destroyed with the flood, while the earth reamined intact and undestroyed, The "heavens and earth" of the old covenant was violently destroyed by Christ's coming, on time, as promise, and the "new heavens and earth" of the new covenant was made fully manifest, never do be destroyed, and has become the greatest empire ever known to mankind, while The planet remained intact.


    I'm not sure I get your point? Are you asserting Full Preterists are not saved?
     
  8. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

    +7
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    That's exactly what I meant parousia for crying out loud... :sigh:

    Like I said I'm not going to bother debating Scripture anymore. Usually the people who are obsessed with being right are merely stirring trouble so I'm going to bow out and let you be right about all things.

    God bless you and yours my friend.
     
  9. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    Dear Brother gw, again you are wrong and i went to your current position to educate you.
    i am correct in all things by The Holy Ghost.
    Generation means RACE and KIND, and as you did not write the webster dictionary and Mr. Webster did use the Holy Bible as his FOUNDATION to define the words, you are very RIGHTEOUSLY NOW DEFEATED by Jesus himself as He gave it to The Holy Ghost for me to pass to thee. amen
    i am nothing and 114% correct IN All these Spiritual things.
    Thankyou Jesus for Noah Webster.
    The preterists should spend more time reading the Webster Dictionary and less time estimating by the wisdome of men.
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
    Try harder gw, go get frost to help.....BRING MORE ROPE!
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    ADELPIT:
    The preterists should spend more time reading the Webster Dictionary and less time estimating by the wisdome of men.

    GW:
    Uh...Webster was a mere uninspired man.

    Why can't you just use the bible to interpret the bible? If you do, you'll see that in the 20 NT citations of the phrase "this generation," every one of them means the contemporaries of Jesus to whom he was speaking. For example:

    Matthew 23:34-38 (Jesus to the Jewish Pharisees)
    "I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!


    The bible is inspired. Webster was not. I must choose the Holy-Ghost inspired bible.
     
  11. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    Noah Webster was a selfprofessed Christian much like yourself.
    So if you cast Noah down, will you suffer to go straightaway with him.
    GET REAL gw. YOU lost the battle....it was a little battle.
    The one i come to prepare you for is the BIG BATTLE, for men must overcome satan exactly the same way Jesus has.
    Turn the other cheek and not oppose evil.
    i am 116% correct by The Holy Ghost.
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  12. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    i cast NOT a single Christian down, for i am NOT come to judge men. i come to examine the men that say they are prophets and they are NOT. amen
    Try harder gw.
    HERE are the boundaries of your movement.
    You can not make any old testament Prophet to be a liar, nor The Lord God whom spoke thru Christ Jesus and Abraham did to see Him.
    You can not make Jesus to be a liar.
    You can not make the Apostles to be a liar.
    You can not make Paul to be a liar.
    BUT of me you can kick and drag me around as you see fit.
    But you will NEVER make me to make any of the ABOVE to be a LIAR. amen
    i am nothing0 and 116% correct by THE HOLY GHOST.
    Though i never boast of myself, always i have BOASTED of the relationship i have with Jesus. It is one He chose for me.
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  13. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    if the system operators would give me more blessings like S&H green stamps, i could give them to gw and frost faster.
    LET me have more blessings!
    i am nothing0
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  14. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    IT is easier for a camel to jump thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of Heaven.
    And now the rest of that story: It is better for you to sit on a mountain of wealth of this world and considered by all around you to be generous to a fault than to depend on he who has nothing, and had he would not share. amen
    So i have for the sakes of The Sheep made sure The Lord sits them on mountains of wealth of this world and of Heaven before me, so no man can say why did adelpit receive his before me, surely i was more righteous.
    Yea Lord i have not forgotten WHO has given me my hands.
    i am nothing0
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
    i am undefeated in all the world in these Spiritual things.
    Thankyou Jesus.
     
  15. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    ADELPIT:
    But you will NEVER make me to make any of the ABOVE to be a LIAR. amen
    i am nothing0 and 116% correct by THE HOLY GHOST.


    GW:
    In Matthew 23:31-38, "this generation" is the generation that witnessed the fall of Jerusalem and the killing of the apostles.

    In Luke 11:29-30 and Matthew 12:38-41, "this generation" means the generation that was alive at the time of the Cross and the resurrection of Jesus.


    Now, were these Holy-Ghost-inspired writers of scripture wrong? No. They were right, and you must adopt their meaning for "this generation" and abandon all other false meanings. The generation that witnessed (1) the Cross (2) the resurrection (3) the killing of the apostles and (4) the destruction of Jerusalem is "THIS GENERATION." This absolutely speaks of Christ's contemporaries, and no other generation.
     
  16. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    But of course it is that generation and that generation is this generation. RACE AND KIND has remained the same for 1970 years. amen
    Try harder gw. i think i see a LIGHT coming. amen
    i am nothing0
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
    i know you think your world will fall away if you even accept in your heart you have made an error, but i tell you it will not, and i am the last person on earth to say i told you so; my world collapsed and fell away long ago.
    The LORd JEsus replaced it with a BETTER one. amen
     
  17. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    i have for the men that have NOT faithe, the very word of Noah Webster and it has been accepted by Both Jew and Gentile, both athiests and Christian as the very foundation our public school system has been built on, and that foundation built by Noah on Christ Jesus.
    And so men agree one and all THE UNITED STATES HAS PROSPERED FOR THE EFFORTS OF MEN AGREEING TO ABIDE BY WEBSTER'S DICTIONARIES.
    Who can stand against the Webster's Dictionary.
    gw will NOT stand.
    i am nothing0, not foolish in this shewing of the POWER of The Knowledge of The Lord God Jesus, for OUr Lord is a wise God and does not send insufficient minds to do His will.
    i have been SUFFICIENT FOR THE TASK, by THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE HOLY GHOST.
    So being nothing0 is NOT such a bad thing. amen
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Adelpit, I am done speaking with you. Your words have been compared to those of the apostles, and have been shown to be in error. For you say:

    "that generation is this generation. RACE AND KIND has remained the same for 1970 years"



    Friend, "1970 years" of "race and kind" did not witness (1) the Cross (2) the resurrection (3) the killing of the apostles and (4) the destruction of Jerusalem. Only those alive in Christ's generation witnessed those things. Sorry.

    And, if we adopted your view, we then arrive at the absurd teaching that the "race and kind" of all humanity will pass away forever at the second coming! For Jesus said:

    "This [race?] shall not pass away UNTIL all these things be fulfilled (Matt 24:34)."



    So, do you really believe the humankind/race really will pass away at the second coming?
     
  19. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    For now Dear Sheep of The Lord God Jesus Christ of Nazareth comes the time men gnash their teeth.
    i am sent so such a responce to HIS TRUTH may be seen by you. And all the while you may stay out of the rabble.
    i am in some way a sacriface to be made so you may see the effect on the seven churches when they see their errors. i tell you Dear Sheep to be silent in all these things so you are NOT treated as i.
    i do it for you. i am nothing0
    Jesus is The LORd1PRaise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
    But be not afraid for me, i am FULL ARMED in THE WORD of GOD.
     
  20. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    End of discussion with Adelpit.

    Agape,
    GW
     
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