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Preterism and the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by frost, Jul 9, 2003.

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  1. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi OS,

    Yes, there was a greater number of Jews involved, but that event was called ' the holocaust' and wasn't followed by the parousia and wasn't preceded by an abomination appearing in the holy place, because the only holy place that the abomination that can cause desolation can appear in is the earthly temple and where the holy place is now Jesus is right beside it and the abomination that causes desolation can't get near it and the people of Judea can't see it and....puff, puff, whew!!!!!!!!

    Poor argument you got there, OS,

    Justme
     
  2. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian

    So when Hilter killed over 5 million Jews you are saying there was more Jews in Jersalm in 70 ad

    Matt 24:21
    Great Tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be

    Isa 30:26 More over the light of the moon shall be light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as light of seven days, in the day that the Lord bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

    That's 145-147 degrees HOT

    Rev 6:12 Great earth quake
    6:14 every mountain and island moved out of thier places

    Rev 16 :18 Great Earth quake
    16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Great Babylon came in rememberance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath 20 And every Island fledaway and the mountains were not found
    21 And there fell upon men a great Hailout of heaven every stone about a weight of a talent:

    97lbs to 110 lbs


    None of these verse have happen yet will in the tribulation whether you believe it or not

    Just like the Phophesy in the Old Testament about Jesus Christ was followed word by word so will everyonther word of God
     
  3. ArtistEd

    ArtistEd Junior Member

    38
    +1
    Christian
    First of all, there can be no greater tribulation than to have Christ Himself coming in the clouds of Glory with wrath and judge you, as He told Caiaphus the high priest He would do.

    Compare the kind of language used in Revelation with Old Testament writings.

    2 Samuel 22:8-17
    Job 9:5-7
    Psalms 46:6

    Look what Isaiah 51:11 says regarding the return of Israel from Babylon to Zion. Sound familiar?

    Then this from Isaiah 40 fullfilled with John the Baptist.


    3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted And every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough places smooth; 5 The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, And all flesh shall see it together; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken." 6 The voice said, "Cry out!" And he said, "What shall I cry?" "All flesh is grass, And all its loveliness is like the flower of the field. 7 The grass withers, the flower fades, Because the breath of the Lord blows upon it; Surely the people are grass. 8 The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever."

    9 O Zion, You who bring good tidings, Get up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, You who bring good tidings, Lift up your voice with strength, Lift it up, be not afraid; Say to the cities of Judah, "Behold your God!" 10 Behold, the Lord God shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him. 11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd; He will gather the lambs with His arm, And carry them in His bosom, And gently lead those who are with young.

    Ed
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    A BRETHREN,

    Please go back and compare Luke 21:20-23 with Matthew 24:15-20. Luke does the interpretive work for us as to when the "great distress/trib" took place--it took place in the fall of Jerusalem. We don't debate the apostles, we simply adhere to their teachings.

    In Christ's victory,

    GW
     
  5. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    Lord did you not tell them the man of sin would not be revealed least there was first a falling away in Faithe?
    Yea Lord you did. amen
    So i am not dishearted at the falling away that came after Paul left us, for in this ensuing time men traded Faithe for science and technology.
    BUt be not deceived you Sheep of The Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, The Holy Ghost has not left you!
    For here is an easy test. Ask any man to tell you these four words:Jesus is The Lord.
    For by these four Holy Bibles:KJV, Douay, Lamsa's, and Holman's, no man can say these four/three(The Lord Jesus) words EXCEPT BY THE HOLY GHOST. AMEN
    SO i who am nothing0 know that if any man can say this and also they are not Christian, i have been given proof by The Holy Ghost of His presence and there is a name for this:predestination.
    So even The Holy Ghost spilled upon the gentiles when the Apostles were gatherd and those same gentiles were NOT yet saved, but they became believers and were so baptised in water even After The Holy Ghost was already with them. amen
    How great is Your Power Lord?
    The Sheep will see. amen
    So to all that do not say Jesus is The Lord, The Holy Ghost is NOT with you yet.
    But as The Holy Ghost must be present for you to say this thing or Paul is a liar (1 Corinthians12:3), since i am gentile Fathered into Christ Jesus by Paul and he Chief Apostile, then i will say you men are only very ignorant. And if to persist then liars.
    For i am here to defend also my brother Paul. amen
    i am nothing0
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    adelpit346,

    The falling away took place. The book of Jude documents that it is now past. Take a moment and read that short history of it.


    By the way, Jesus is the Lord.

    Agape,
    GW
     
  7. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    Luke 21:20-23 I agree that the phophesy of 70 ad destruction of Israel

    They went thru tribulation but not the GREAT TRIB
    however
    Matt 24:15-20 This is talking about the Great Trib

    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of one week he shall cause the sacrifice the overspreading of abomination he shall make it desolate[2 thes 2:4] even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
     
  8. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    SO will you now say also you are nothing and agree with Paul 100%?
    P.S. i said it did already occur in my third sentence. amen
    The falling away Jesus was speaking of was that after the perfect example of what Jesus could effect in a man by The Holy Ghost; and now i speak of Paul; the gentiles would not go and build upon that perfect example so that by the time i came into the world there would be millions of gentile Christians the exact same as Paul and greater. But as i have investigated this in an exhaustive method, i am sad to say there are NONE.
    The falling away in Faithe came after Paul offered up his body to be burnt.
    i am nothing0
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  9. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    Tell me ye men of the wisdome of this earth what men being murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouths speaking great swelling words having men's persons in admiration because of advantage,EVER had so much as a wits worth of FAITHE BEFORE FALLING AWAY?
    i tell you there were NONE.
    The falling away is that of the seven Chruches, for in NONE has so much as a single Apostle come forth having imitated Paul and proving such by the presence of All Jesus Class Miracles.
    But did they not have the advantage of Paul's coming so that by this appearance they whom complained they could not imitate Christ, saw that it was possible; for so Paul did it for them and for i. amen
    And if the World's chief sinner could by the presence of The Holy Ghost accomplish this and Paul telling us to imitate him, then by the very same Spirit could we do any less?
    i who am nothing0 say NO.
    So for that alone i am come.
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
    WE Dear Sheep of The Lord God Jesus Christ of Nazareth are the ones who have fallen away from the example of Paul.
    But by The Holy Ghost and the promise of Jesus, there is GOOD NEWS. For Jesus has said HE would send two or three witnesses and John spoke of only two of them in Revelation, i can in FAITHE tell you all we will get the Third in this nation of GOd:The United States. amen amen amen
     
  10. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    Tell me Lord Jesus what Sheep of yours will be the FIRST to tell me Jesus is The Lord, he is nothing0 and agrees with Paul 100% so i may know he is a Sheep of yours?
    i am nothing0 and my ear is open.
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  11. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +172
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Where in the book of Jude? When did Matt 24:21 happen? Only 1.2 million Jews died in the fall of Jerusalem. 5-7 million were horribly tortured and murdered during the holocaust. 5 mill. is certainly greater that 1.2 mill.

    • Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
     
  12. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +172
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    The "great tribulation" in Matt 24:31 is NOT dependent on the abomination standing in the Holy Place, this event is NOT recorded in scripture. And the GT is NOT dependent on the Parousia, this event is also NOT recorded in scripture. The condition which Jesus ascribed to the GT is,

    • Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Considering only the criteria specifically listed for the GT by Jesus. Was the fall of Jerusalem, 1.2 million Jews killed, the greatest tribulation, "since the beginning of the world to [that] time" Yes. Was the holocaust, 5+ million Jews killed, a greater tribulation than any which ever occurred since the beginning of the world to the time of the fall of Jerusalem? Yes. Therefore the fall of Jerusalem does NOT meet the criteria of Matt 24:21.

    The scriptures say the Abomination of Desolation must stand IN the holy place, NOT an army surrounding Jerusalem. There is NO scriptural record of the Abomination of Desolation standing IN the Holy Place.

    Jesus' prophecy requires the Son of Man to appear. There is NO scriptural record of the second coming, i.e. the Parousia, of Christ.


    When ALL the events, not just some, prophesied by Jesus occur near in time to each other, and the precise timing as specified in Daniel, and "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time," then Matt 24 will have been fulfilled.

    Jesus prophesied His death, burial, and resurrection, precisely specifying the number of days He would be in the grave. ALL those events LITERALLY happened. They are recorded in scripture.

    Jesus prophesied the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, history records those two events LITERALLY occurred.

    At the present time only two of the events prophesied by Jesus, in Matt 24, can be shown to have literally happened, the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Unfortunately virtually all the other events Jesus prophesied are spiritualized or allegorized away. Jesus did NOT say some of His prophesy was literal and some allegorical or spiritual.
     
  13. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi OS,

    It is recorded in scripture in my bible. It's right there quite plain actually. The thens, and immediately afters and such....Yea, I have no trouble seeing the scriptural history of it. How about the rest of you guys? Yes, it is spiritualized, as you say, but it would have to be, because that's how it happened. Spiritually..

    How do you figure the abomination that causes desolation is going to get into the holy place now that the holy place is here:

    Hebrews 9
    23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.

    If you want another verse to use to figure out WHEN this all happened heres one :
    Hebrews 9
    26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    He suffered at the 'end of the ages', by sacrificing Himself.

    Maybe you could explain this end of the ages for us, keeping in mind Matthew 24:3 and all the other verses you will have to reconcile it with.

    Justme
     
  14. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    the falling away is a gross misinterpetation

    all that is ...is the Rapture and the HOLY SPIRIT leaving earth thus he is not holding back satan's son of perdition or the beast

    please read whole text or even other verses to strengthen your stance
     
  15. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    1Thes 2:4 .....so that he sitteth in the temple of God ....

    happen in the mid trib 3 1/2 years once HS leaves why temple needs to built in Jersalm where the Muslims and jews and the Christians argue who has rights
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    A Brethren,

    Go back and read Luke 21:20-23 next to Matthew 24:15-20. They are parallel passages.

    Luke's account places the event at the fall of Jerusalem.

    GW
     
  17. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    Now i know no matter the ignorance in which gw spouts off many things, he is by saying Jesus is The Lord predestinated to be saved. Thankyou Jesus.
    But as i have not yet heard him say i am nothing0 and agree with Paul 100%(not knowing fully what Paul is speaking of: which is a great measure of FAITHE) then i will say he is not yet A Sheep of The Lord God Jesus.
    FOr many think to say a creed to me this proves they are saved and i say satan can say the same thing NOT believing it in his heart, and how will i know the difference least i test him by Paul.
    So as you may know for your own benefit you are saved by believeing in your heart the creed, it does not prove to me your are saved.
    This is what it take to let me hear what is in your heart:Jesus is The Lord, i am nothing0 and agree with Paul 100%. Hearing those things satan can not say, for i have tested this before thousands and thousands, i will say to you: you are A Sheep of The Lord.
    So in here i see one stiffnecked man that is predestinated to be saved and many othes i do not have to turn my back on.
    For little ones i carry a copy with me of The Two edged sword(which by the way is the length of a man's arm has five equi-distance sides: and two sharp edges for it cuts both the flesh and the spirit of a man. amen) that comes from The Mouthe of Jesus. amen
    In fact all that are full armed in The Word carry the same sword Jesus sent to us by Paul. amen
    Know when you all are ready to discuss Matthew and Luke we should start with the genealogies. And when i have by The Holy Ghost solved that problem for you, then we will search out many others. And along this walk i will discern all your spirits.
    Will gw make a move to prove he is A Sheep. Will the rest of ye even say JEsus is The Lord?
    Time will tell.
    But one thing you all should know, i do have to leave voluntarily. i do not have to shake the dust off from my feet. For this is not a fleshly place but The Place That Paul spoke of where i may war with spirits in These High Places.
    So in here we are but spirits. amen
    To The Sheep of The Lord God Jesus Christ of Nazareth you may pass by in peace for i am thy fellow servant.
    P.S. gw the encompassing of Jersulem Jesus was speaking of being He was thinking only two days away for Himself(two thousand years for you) was not the first time it happens, but the last!
    How will you know it is the last?
    Simple: you will see Jacob's ladder and Jesus come down to rule with peace for 1000 years.
    i who am nothing0 can say with 105% certainty Jesus has not yet ruled on this earth and there has been no peace. amen
    i am nothing and 105% correct in all these Spiritual things by the Holy Ghost/Spirit(which you in Loma Linda think could not be here. i will easily disprove all of you by The Holy Ghost/Spirit you do not believe can be with me. amen)
    Thankyou Jesus.
    i am nothing0
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  18. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +12
    Christian
    One or the other please adelpit346..please close the door on your way out.
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Adelpit,

    I am nothing, and I agree with Paul 100%. Jesus is the Lord. Now, back to the discussion...

    Do you, adelpit, agree with Paul that the Lord's second coming was very soon in Paul's lifetime? Paul, writing to his contemporaries, told them:

    Hebrews 10:37
    for yet a very very little [time], He who is coming will come, and will not tarry

    --AND--

    1 Corinthians 7:29,31
    But this I say, brethren, the time is short...for the fashion of this world is passing away.





    ADELPIT:
    gw the encompassing of Jersulem Jesus was speaking of being He was thinking only two days away for Himself(two thousand years for you)

    GW:
    The bible does not teach that. Luke 21:20-23, and therefore Matthew 24:15-20, speaks of AD 66-70.



    ADELPIT:
    i who am nothing0 can say with 105% certainty Jesus has not yet ruled on this earth

    GW:
    Scripture, written by the Holy Spirit, does not agree with you. The Spirit said:

    1 Corinthians 15:25
    For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    Acts 5:31
    Him hath God exalted with his right hand, a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Matthew 28:18
    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    Revelation 1:5
    from Jesus Christ...the prince of the kings of the earth.

    1 Peter 3:22
    Jesus Christ, who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
     
  20. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

    +3
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Note to everyone: Please be kind in your responses to one another. Opinions will differ, but there is no excuse for any rudeness. Let's keep the Golden Rule in mind.

    Thank you for your cooperation.
     
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