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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. IB

    IB Idaho Bassman

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    Yo Ozark,
    You said?
    I'm not sure I agree with this line of thinking. If we were created in God's image, how is sin part of our nature?

    Genesis 1:26,
    Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth

    I think it is our nature to do good, that is why all people have the ability to do good. We are all created in the likeness of God.

    I understand the concept of inherent nature, for example it is a dog's nature to bark. That is what they do. However, a dog can be taught to not bark. I have a dog and have trained him not to bark. For the most part he does not bark, but on occasion he will. I guess he makes a choice to ignore his teaching?? Let's apply this.

    I think sin is a choice. Did Adam sin before eating the fruit? Was it his nature to sin? I think Adam made a choice to sin. Think about it, at this point in your walk, does sin just creep up on you and jump out? (sometimes maybe) But wouldn't you agree that most of the sins we still commit we think about and some how make a choice to ingnore our training? I think (and I used that phrase alot in this post) it is all about choices, especialy our choice to follow Jesus. I'm sure this discussion belongs on another thread, but I just wanted to express my thoughts in reply to your last post. If you want to discuss it further please let me know.

    See Ya, Idaho Bassman
     
  2. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

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    IB,

    I would be glad to discuss this further. We may even be able to squeeze a little fulfilled eschatology in here somewhere.

    While I agree with your assessment of Adam’s condition before the fall, I believe the condition of humanity changed after Adam made his “choice.” What was different? One important thing was missing—the Tree of Life. Those from the time of Adam to the time of Christ’s finished and consummated works had no access to the Tree of Life (which is the Person of Jesus Christ John 14:6) even though some yearned for it. We only see the Tree of Life fully restored in Revelation 22:2 at the Parousia. (I told you we would get it in here somewhere! :D )

    Yet, before Christ’s completed works, did humanity even have the ability to do good? I think God’s definition of good has not changed since the garden of Eden. It is very simple. Tree of Life = good. Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil = Bad. Without the Tree of Life we had no ability to do any good that was acceptable to God. This statement is an affront to most non-believers and even to many Christians. We want to be able to say that there must be some good or something God values in me even apart from Christ. No! Jesus in His conversation with the rich young ruler put it this way:

    17So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matthew 19:17 (NKJV)

    The conversation that follows proves Jesus point. At first glance it may appear that Jesus was telling the young man that he could enter into the kingdom through the Law. Yet, a closer look reveals that what Jesus proved was that the young man could not gain God’s approval in this manner.

    Jesus also said:

    “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing (John 15:5).”

    Does this mean that all who are not walking in a Vine/branch relationship with Jesus can’t do anything? Well, obviously we can do a great many things apart from such a relationship. However, we can’t do anything that is of any interest to God. Every deed done apart from Him is nothing whether it is good or evil.

    So, to say that we all have the ability to do good is right from a human perspective, but not from God’s. Thus we see the apostle Paul’s scathing rebuke against all of humanity in Romans 3.

    10As it is written:
    “There is none righteous, no, not one;
    11 There is none who understands;
    There is none who seeks after God.
    12 They have all turned aside;
    They have together become unprofitable;
    There is none who does good, no, not one.”
    13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
    With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
    “The poison of asps is under their lips”;
    14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
    15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
    18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
    Romans 3:10 through Romans 3:18 (NKJV)


    As for our nature being sin before we are made the new creation, I don’t think the sin nature is just the nature to do bad stuff. Sin is ANYTHING we do apart from Christ whether good or evil. This is why Paul said, “… for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God….” God’s standard is the glory of God. Anything that falls short is sin. This is why we must become born again to enter the kingdom of God. The glory of the new creation is Christ in us. Under the new covenant God does not just tell us to be good (The Law). He is our Good—the only good that He calls acceptable. So, the essence of the sin nature comes from the condition of separateness from God. Sin is not just an individual act. It is also a state of being. A state which finds remedy only in Christ.

    Yet, the nature to do the bad stuff is in us before we are born again. I don’t think Adam had that nature. Though apart from Christ we do. If we doubt this, read Paul’s account of the man under the Law in Romans seven.

    14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
    21I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    Romans 7:14 through Romans 7:24 (NKJV)

    The man in Romans seven made the choice not to sin, but it was not enough. If you think choosing by will is enough to keep from sinning, let me ask you this. How many times with great effort have you promised God that you would never do something again? Did you? The chances are your well meaning promise was broken. We can only keep our promises to God when we come to know that the Promise Keeper dwells within us. He is indeed our glory. No other glory will do.
     
  3. Aman Aman :clap: Keep preaching THE FULL GOSPLE brother.
     
  4. Isaiah also makes this very point that apart from God our
    righteousnesses are as filthy rags. But we are all as an unclean thing, and "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities,
    like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

    In the Hebrew the words "filthy rags" here are to be understood as a womans "minestrial cloth" which shows how good we are apart from God.
     
  5. Well not according to Paul. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned (Romans 5:12)

    According to Paul sin entered in the world through Adam and because of Adam all men, sinned. Therefore according to God there is non good.(Matthew 19:17)

    If we are ever to understand the bible we must learn to see thing the way God, sees them and not sinfull man who believes he is good.
     
  6. davo

    davo Member

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    ZoneChaos, you responded to my comments on Rev 22:2,14.

    What you are posing borders on heretical "christian reincarnation." You have so called believers having come through the tribulation being raptured and transfigured into a "sinless existence" [none of this with supporting scriptures]. Their off-spring born apparently before this rapture, so still sinful and able to be saved. Even though Christ has returned.

    So you have Christ returning, saints being glorified and somehow still sinful people being tempted and being born again. So how many times does this reincarnational cycle occur? When is "then cometh the end"? How many times does this have to happen before God gets it right?

    The whole notion is unbiblical, ludicrous and heresy -how can you come up with such stuff -where are your CLEAR scriptures for this??? And this all, AFTER EVERYTHING EVIL AND SINFUL is done away with in the Lake of Fire, and AFTER the New Jerusalem has descended. Your answer is untenable. :(

    davo
     
  7. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Hmm.. I was talking about those who lived through the tribulation, and lived during the 1000 year reign. It is those people who will co-exist with the raptured.

    The raptured saints wil be sinless, but the ones who are still on earth at this time, will still have a sinful nature. And for a short time, Satan will tempt them, so they too cnas have the choice to follow or reject God before final judgement.
     
  8. davo

    davo Member

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    Well ok [still you give no scriptures for all you're saying??], but your answer was in response to my question on Rev 22:2,14-15 which deals with things AFTER the END, NOT before [as your scenario has it] -read my post again #269.

    This is a real problem for futurism -which cannot be gotten around except by ignoring it. You may want to rethink what you're actually advocating.

    davo
     
  9. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    I think "and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations" is a past tense statement.. that they were for the healing, but are no longer.

    Also, while I lean more towards what I said above, I have also heard opinion that "healing" here is not referring to sikcness, or anything like that, but rather it is speaking of the life ministering qualities of the tree.. in that, in Heaven, the leaves will help to enrich the eternal life we will have.
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    That would work if it weren't for the fact that the "tree" first shows up on the scene after sin, evil and death have been forever cast away, and this current earth has been replaced by the "new" one. The tree does not exist on the "old earth" at all, but is first manifest on the "new" one.

    You see, the Leaves were not even available to the nations for "healing" or any other purpose until everything has already been made perfect.

    What do you suppose it is about the "new earth" that automaticly needs to be healed immediatly after God creates it?
     
  11. Hi Brother ZoneChaos :wave: Are you now ready to show me those verses in Isaiah and Daniel that mention a future "rapture and tribulation? :scratch:
     
  12. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    The tree existed in the Garden, on earth originally. The bible also states that it is currently in Heaven.
     
  13. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Isaiah 26:19-21 "Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


    Daniel 7:17-27 "These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth [were of] iron, and his nails [of] brass; [which] devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

    Also, The whole chapter of Daniel 9 pretty much is a timeline of events surrounding the end times... leading up to, and through the tribulation.
     
  14. Nice try ZoneChaos hower there is still no mention of any rapture or any tribulation in these books. God here is comforting the faithful in their afflictions, showing them that even in death they will have life and that they would certainly rise to glory. The contrary would come to the wicked, as in. (Isaiah 26:14). This is the second death in (Revelation 20:13-14) They are dead and did not live again.

    This verse should also bring to mind another place in the Bible. And at that time "your people" shall be delivered. Even one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasthing life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.(Daniel 12:1-2) Those to shame and everlasting contempt. Did not live again.

    The term "your people" here refers to Daniel's people Israel.

    Another thing you have been taught to over look is there is only a "one time resurrection" in the Bible. (Revelation 20:12-14) And according to the inspired Peter Jesus "was ready to judge the living and the dead then".(1 Peter 4:5) Peter also said that time had come in the first century. But theend of all things is at hand therefore be serius and watchful in your prayers.

    The verses in Isaiah 26 has nothing to do with our future and every thing to do with Israel's future and salvation.

    One the gates, That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.(Isaiah 26:2) This verse to should also bring to mind another salvation verse.

    Its gates shall not be shut at all by day there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and the honor of nations into it(Revelation 21:27)
    When we let the bible interpret itself it comes into perfect harmony. :clap:

    I see you have never been taught that God's prophets never said one thing in one place that went against another prophet in another place of the Bible.

    If one of our preterist brothers does not answer the verse you pointed out in Daniel 7:17-27 I will be glad to after work.

    His servent and your.
     
  15. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Thanks! Glad I could help.
     
  16. davo

    davo Member

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    Zone, all the verbs in that verse are in the "present active tense" -there is nothing in the past tense. This means that it was [past tense ha ha] and is present and ongoing. Youngs literal translation reads:

    Revelation 22:2 in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service of the nations;

    So there is no pushing this verse back to fit some other time.

    Nice idea, however, it implies perfection needs in that sense sustaining -a bit odd. There is scope to see this "healing" [if you can't take it literally] as involving "spiritual healing" -i.e., the rebirth. And this is in fact what it is -physical healing is an added blessing.

    davo
     
  17. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    So, Davo, what do you think it means? Dpo you have an interpretation that still sticks to the Word? Or do not not accept the Bible as fully inspired by God.

    Take you pick.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I have one, and yes I do accept "ALL" scripture as inspired and infallible.

    The tree is none other than Jesus Chirst, and in todays "new covenant heavens and earth" every one who thirsts has free access to the water of life and the tree, and the leaves are for the healing of the nations, because our nations need healing today.

    Revelation 21-22 is a present day reality, not some future 'pie in the sky'.
     
  19. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

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    I don’t want to interrupt our train of thought here, but I can’t help notice the continuing clash between the carnal and the spiritual here. So, if you will bear with me, I would like to make one more comment on it

    61But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62“What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
    John 6:61 through John 6:64 (NASB)

    The clash between the carnal mind and the spiritual is a theme we see throughout the book of John. Some notable examples are found in chapters three, six, and eight. I would encourage folks who are trying to understand preterist thought to study these chapters. They will give you insights as to why we are saying the things that we are saying.

    Let us also note that spiritual words are always an affront to the carnal mind. John chapter six is a wonderful example of this. In the first half of the chapter Jesus deals with the people’s physical needs. He feeds them lunch in a most marvelous way multiplying a few loaves and fishes to feed a crowd of over 5000. They loved Him. In fact, they went to great lengths to find the Lord the next day. However, the second day was different. On this day Jesus dealt with the spiritual. He said things that must be spiritually appraised such as:

    53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58“This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.” John 6:53 through John 6:58 (NASB)

    This was a far cry from the free food He gave them the day before. The first day He gave them physical bread. The second day He offered Himself as true spiritual bread. How did they respond? They were offended. Again spiritual things are always an offence to the carnal mind. If we are going to preach Jesus as one who only deals in the material, we will be loved by all. Yet, if we preach Jesus as spiritual bread and the present reality of His kingdom, we will offend people. Moreover, many will see no profit in what we are saying. This my friends is the underlying reason preterists offend certain people.

    Let us look at a few examples.

    16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 through 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NASB)

    The carnal mind says this cannot have already happened because I have not yet disappeared from my moving vehicle while my driverless car goes on to take out some well-deserving sinner. :eek:

    The spiritual mind instead embraces the words of Paul.

    “5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together £with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus…. Ephesians 2:5 through Ephesians 2:6 (NASB)”

    The preterist understands that these words, though finished at the cross, were consummated at the Parousia. We do not need a present day rapture. We are already with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. This is a spiritual reality not a physical one. We are in His presence and His presence is in us. The separation between heaven and earth has been removed in Christ.

    2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2 (NASB)

    The carnal mind says that this cannot have already happened, because I don’t see a great cubic city floating in the air above the earth.

    The spiritual mind recognizes the new Jerusalem is the new creation, and it is very present on the earth.

    The carnal mind says Jesus cannot have returned because I don’t see Him siting on a literal throne in the literal nation of Israel . The spiritual mind recognizes that He is indeed here. He is enthroned in the midst of spiritual Israel which is the church. All this was inaugurated at the Parousia right on time just as Jesus and the apostles said it would be. No tricks or gimmicks are necessary to see this, just a spiritual mind.

    ZoneChaos and others, Just open your heart and ask the Lord to show you His kingdom. He will, but you will not be able to see it with your eyes.

    5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    John 3:5 through John 3:8 (NASB)
     
  20. davo

    davo Member

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    What do you mean "still sticks to the Word?" -sticking to the Word, and that alone is what covenant eschatology is all about -no "fantasic" interpretations, just scripture directing scripture, AND the whole lot divinely inspired.

    As Ozark so finely indicated, the Word [especially the Apocalyps] is replete with "spiritual" truth and lesson. It isn't adequate to challenge an interpretation WITHOUT giving biblical evidence to back up the challenge -and so far you have not answered "scripturally" HOW sin and evil can be present in the "New Creation," IF it is as you futurists demand -a remade literal physical universe AFTER [as is CLEAR from the text] ALL that opposes God is confined to the Second Death.

    As I said in a subsequent post, the New Creation of Rev 22 is none other than the New Covenant. And as the New Covenant is eternal so is the preaching of the Gospel [Rev 14:6], there will ALWAYS be people populating God's Presence. "If any one be in Christ he IS a New Creation. Scripture interpreting scripture.

    This is the lesson: Christ DESTROYED the power of sin -that power was the power of SEPARATION which through His Coming [a second time apart from sin] was abolished:

    Heb 2:14-15 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    Sticking with the Word means sticking with the VICTORY OF GOD. :clap:

    davo
     
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