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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. Nobody ever heard of a pre-tribulation rapture before 1830. In England, where the theory originated, it has all but vanished. Still in America the specter lives on, and at the local church level it persists strongly. Unfortunately many swallowed the new teach "hook line and sinker".

    Morgan Edwards was born in May 9, 1722, in Trevethin Parish, Monmoughshire, Wales about 100 miles from Bristol, England. He died in 1795, long before Margaret Macdonald was ever born, and long before J.N. Darby ever developed his pre-tribulation rapture theory. In fact, the book which by Morgan Edwards giving us his views on eschatology.

    Was published in 1788- ever before Emmanuel Lacunza's book was completed in manuscript from 1790 The crux of the matter is that Edwards published the teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture long be before Margaret Macdonald and J.N.Darby. Edwards' first pastorate was a small church in Boston England. Seven years later he became pastor of Baptist church in Cork, England. It was here he was ordained to the ministry in 1757

    Edwards then resigned from the pastorate after 10 years, and in 1771 became an intinerant evangelist helping the churches of the Southern colonies from the Philadelphia Baptist Association. Morgan Edwards in America was "one of the most important and influential Baptist leaders during the latter part of the eighteenth century."

    "He is mentioned in all of the histories of Baptists in the United States." Edwards was highly influential in the Baptist life of America. He was the first historian of Baptists in America. Albert Henry Newman's (A History of the Baptist Church in the United States 1894). Morgan Edwards certainly did bring "strange things" to the Baptist people in America 1788 Edwards believed that the "lake of fire brimstone was "on the moon"!

    Edwards was a literalist so far as the New Testament was concerned, but not as much as with the Old Testament. Edwards believed that Abraham looked for a real literal city. He acknowledged the Bible was the word of God, while not denying the textual difficulties.

    It is thought that a fifteen year old girl in Scotland by the name of Margaret Macdonald was the originator of pre-tribulation teaching in 1830. It has also believed that the lrvingites in England started publishing this teaching in 1830 after getting it from Margaret Macdonald. It has been published that she was the first ever to teach a pre-tribulation rapture. At any rate, it was in 1830, forty-two years after Morgan Edwards'book was published, in Philadelphia Pa so we know now that she was not the originator of the pre-tribulation rapture teaching.

    Morgan Edwards was the first to ever teach a pre-tribulation rapture. Edwards' book was published in 1788 According to Edwards, the Rapture should have accursed 3 ½ years before the beginning of the Millennium in 1996. This means that the "literal rapture" should have accursed in 1993. Well it didn't!

    From what source did Morgan Edwards get his theory of the pre-tribulation rapture, or was it something that he devised in his own mind independently of others? From statements he made, he evidently felt he was teaching something new. And who was the first to cope it from Edwards in America? Its difficult to believe that the teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture was not preached also from the various pulpits where Edwards ministered. One doesn't usually write a book to tell how its influential Baptist leader devised things in his own mind. Unfortunately it is at the church level who is last to find out.
  2. Where are these verse brother that mention a people populating the planet after the rapture and tribulation? I cannot find these verse you mentioned any were in the New Testament? :scratch:
  3. Revelation 22:14 There is no mention of any rapture or anything else you mentioned in that verse. We must be very carfull not to add anthing to the Bible.
  4. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    I beleeve them to be in Rev, Chapter 20...

    Last Sunday my Pastor spoke on this very thing, and I will be meeting eith hi tomorrow. I will get more info form him then and let you know.

    If you will, send me a PM to remind me :) I will post a new thread on the topic specifically.
  5. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    When did I quote this verse?

    Is till don;t understand your accusation of me adding anything to scripture. Everything I have said, is in scripture (I think, hehe), and I never said any poaret of what I was saying was form a specific verse...

    I am not "quoting" from a specfic verse, but form the Bible as a whole.
  6. Your reply to DAVO about his quote of Revelation 22:14
  7. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    Heh, I never claimed that what i said was all included in that one verse.. hehe

    That spans revelations, as well as Daniel and Isaiah

    He wanted to know where those people mentioned in 22:14 came from... to answe that you have to look at other passages of the Bible.
  8. You can talk about that topic here. However there is on mention of any rapture in Rev. 20 Or any mention of any reign on earth with Christ. :scratch: It does say however that the saints were to reign with Christ. It does not mention at all were this reign would take place.
  9. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    Lets not limit this discussion to any particular book, chapter or verse.. ;)
  10. John never said that. God never gave us the right to do that either. We can make the Bible say anything if we say one book is talking about another. And Daniel and Isaiah never mentioned a rapture either.
  11. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran


    The topic:

    the Rapure AND Judgement AND who exists on earth post Tribulation.

    Therre are several elemtns to this topic and to study all of them you have to look at several passages of scripture.

    The Bible talks about the rapture. The Bible talks about the events that will take place nat the end times, and the Bible talks about the poeple who are on the earth, post Tribulation, during the 1000 years reign, who do not have glorified bodies as we do.

    Think Big Picture, mmkay?
  12. ZoneChaos brother. Just for the fun of it please show us from Daniel and Isaiah were it mentioned a rapture and people on the earth after the rapture.
  13. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    Will do.. tomoroow.. though the whole picture of the enditmes is not in these books.. just pieces...
  14. davo

    davo Member

    G'day ZoneChaos and Manifestation1*AD70 -you guys sure have been busy [I work a night-shift here in oz, so while you blokes were conversing I've been :sleep: ]

    ZoneChaos, my references are from Rev 22 alone. No matter what view one takes on end-times, ALL agree this IS the end-game i.e., this IS the New Creation. You need to show "scripturally" how it is that sin and evil are STILL present in the presence of God IF this is a re-made world in view. Rev 19-20 are CEAR, the false Prophet, the Beast, the Devil, the dead of the sea, the dead from Death and Hades, and then anyone NOT found in the 'Book of Life' -ALL WERE THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

    Having said that, don't forget what Paul said:

    1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (KJV) 24Then cometh the end [of everything], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign [His Millennial reign], till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    If, as Scripture is CLEAR "death" is the "last" enemy to be destroyed -and as we saw, this happens in Rev 19-20, you cannot explain away these "sin laden evil people" as coming from ANY of the sourses you mentioned [with no scriptural references]. What you are preposing is "second chance salvation" i.e., people being "born again" AFTER Christ's return, let alone after the Bible is clear the FINAL END has come. What you seem to be advocating is WAY more than scripture says or allows -what you are advocating is inconsistant. There is no chapter 23 to the Revelation.

    There is only one answer: The New Creation of Rev 22 is NOT a literal re-made world. The New Creation is none other than the New Covenant in Christ, fully consumated. What does Scripture say about this?:

    2Cor 5:17 (KJV) 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature[i.e., New Creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    The Old Creation is gone [i.e., old covenant Judaism, destroyed at Christ's Coming in AD70] and ALL THINGS made new -in Christ i.e., in the New Covenant.

    "Futurism's" gospel has a "use-by-date" but not so with "fulfilled prophecy/covenant eschatology" -ours is an eternal Gospel to proclaim Rev 14:6, world without end:

    Eph 3:21 (KJV) 21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen

    And that's why "the nations need healing" and "sinners are outside the City of God" -it is our mandate to invite them in -"The Spirit and the Bride say COME!!"

    The Gospel is for all time -never losing its power nor call.

    ZoneChaos, what Biblical response do you have -not generalised "the Bible says" we need to get things tied down.

  15. Good morning brother Davo. What I have been trying to point out to brother ZoneChaos is God never gave us the right to run all over the Bible and take verses from one book and say they fit another book. As you have so well pointed out there were evil people outside the city after the judgement (Revelation 20:10-15; 22:14).

    And Pauls rapture is only found one place in all the Bible and there is no mention of any people left on the earth to go through any tribulation. And there is no mention of any rapture in the book of Daniel or any were else in the Bible.

    It is one thing to say somthing is in the Bible and show a verse which says that. And it is another thing to say or add to the Bible without a verse to proof it.
  16. IB

    IB Idaho Bassman

    Would someone please list the exact verse where the word 'rapture' is used. I would like to study it for myself. thanks, Idaho Bassman
  17. Hi IB the word "rapture" is really not used in the Bible. However the concept is found in (1Thes.4:13-17). But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again,even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those
    who have fallen asleep.

    For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive,who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be
    caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the
    Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the
  18. Paul refers to the old covenant of the law in many different ways. In this post we will look at a term used by Paul to describes the old covenant. Again, many take Paul's term literally, and thus miss the meaning of his teaching. The term used is ‘flesh.' For when we were in the Flesh, the passions of sins which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. (Romans 7:5) Remember, please, Paul is speaking in this place to his Jewish brethren who know the law (see verse one of chapter seven).

    There are many other places in this epistle were he addresses Gentiles, but in this verse he speaks to Jewish Christians. Many are quick to tell us that being ‘in the flesh' means we have a physical body that breathes, has a beating heart, and senses that allow us to communicate with our material world. Many other insist that ‘flesh' versus Spirit are two ways of viewing the same individual. This is un-Biblical teaching, but, sadly, many believe it.

    Paul is speaking covenantal truth. His Jewish readers had physical bodies under the law. They died to the old through the body of Christ that they could be married to Him who was raised from the dead. They are now Christians in a better covenant, and they still wear physical bodies.

    The sense of it is conveyed by the past tense used by Paul as he says ‘when we were in the flesh.' If he were speaking of earthen vessels (which he does elsewhere) then his statement would be foolish. They were, as Jews all in the old, fleshly covenant. It was a covenant ordained of God of human fleshly works. For example (Lev. 1:1-2; 7:29; 9:3).

    As Christians, they were no longer bound to that old fleshly covenant of works that could not give life. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By that law" Of works? No but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:27-28) Paul speaks of ‘flesh' and works as a covenantal identity.

    With this lesson in mind let's look at two verses from the next chapter. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the thing of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnal minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:5-6)

    How could one be fleshly minded and one be spiritually minded? Read Acts 15:1-11 were a sect of Pharisees were saying the "Gentiles needed to be circumcise and keep the law of Moses to be saved." And Peter said the Gentiles were to hear the gospel and be saved.

    The covenant of ‘flesh' was death. The covenant of the Spirit is life. In those days of Covenantal eclipse, a man was determined by the covenant he was under. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:8) If we look at the last verse the way many would have us look at it, then it says anyone who wears a physical body cannot be pleasing of God.

    Can we be serious students of the word and still believe such non-sense. Jesus was once in the flesh when God the Father said: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 3:17)

    Let's stick with Paul understanding of flesh. He and the Spirit of God seem to know what they are talking about. They always did.
  19. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    Thank you manifestation for that marvelous post! :clap: The following is a little bit along the same lines.

    In John chapter eight we see a marvelous contrast between the carnal mind and the spiritual mind. Jesus speaks of the spiritual. The Pharisees understand and react from a carnal mindset.

    Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:31 through John 8:36 (NKJV)

    Many of the Pharisees expected the Messiah to bring forth a material kingdom. They expected the messiah to overthrow the Romans by force and make the nation of Israel the center of a worldwide kingdom. In other words, they were expecting political freedom by the power of the sword. One problem that they had with Jesus was that He had no sword in His hand.

    It is curious that they responded by saying that they as Jews had never been in bondage to anyone. The nation had been in captivity in times past, and they were currently under the oppression of the Romans, so even this was an empty boast.

    Jesus was not speaking of political freedom. He was talking about a much greater spiritual freedom. He came to set us free from sin. Sin is a condition as well as an act. The bible makes some very powerful statements concerning sin’s grasp on the lost. It says that we are helpless against it (Rom. 5:6), enslaved to it (Rom. 6:17), and held captive by it (Rom 7:23).

    While most translations do not use the word “sin nature” to describe our captivity, it is certainly a sound teaching. To help us understand this, consider an example in nature-- the orange tree. Its nature is to make oranges. It does not have to try. Moreover, no amount of telling an orange tree to stop making oranges will make it stop. This helps us understand what it means to have a sin nature. We don't have to try to sin. It comes naturally. Moreover, no amount of telling us not to sin will stop us. This is why the law failed to make us righteous. This is our nature to the core!

    God sets us free from this corruption by making us a new creation. The old creation was rotten to the core. The new creation has Jesus at the core. We are partakers of the divine nature. Thus we partake of the very freedom Christ Himself has from sin. This is the freedom Jesus came to bring. He brought such freedom not with a sword but by giving Himself for us and to us.

    Does this scenario sound familiar? It should. People are still expecting Jesus to return in a manner like the Pharisees wanted. They expect Him return and sit on a literal throne and make the literal nation of Israel the center of the earth. Jesus came to bring a much greater freedom than the Pharisees expected and a much greater kingdom. He came to bring the freedom to not have to sin. He came to bring the freedom to be like Him. And the glorious thing is that freedom is available today.

    37“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have £seen with your father.”
    39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
    Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41You do the deeds of your father.”
    Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father-God.”
    42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:37 through John 8:44 (NKJV)

    Again the Pharisees spoke of natural things, and Jesus spoke of the spiritual. The Pharisees were saying they were special because they were born of a certain physical lineage. Jesus wanted to make them of a new spirital lineage where through Christ, God would be their Father and they His sons and daughters. They spoke of physical birth. Jesus wanted to get them born again.

    Unless we are born again and the kingdom of God dwells in our hearts, we are of the Devil! This idea astounded and angered the Pharisees.

    How can He say this? Isn’t it a little extreme to call all who don’t have Jesus “of the Devil?” Are there not people who don’t have Christ, yet still do good deeds. How can they be of the Devil? Even some of the Pharisees were good people.

    We must understand that the nature of the Devil is not just to do evil. Kick the dog, yell at our wife, steal, kill, etc. It is to be separate from God. We see this in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. That tree-the Devil’s tree-was not just about doing evil. It was about being separate from God whether in doing good or evil. Thus its name.

    Satan wanted Adam and Eve to be separate from the Tree of Life. He did not mind if they did good deeds as long as those deeds had their source in self rather than in Christ. When the kingdom comes into our lives, so does the nature of the kingdom. It is not just the nature to do good things anymore that the nature of Satan’s kingdom is just to do bad things. The nature of the kingdom of God is to walk in union with Christ. The old nature was separation. The new is union.

    Our new nature-part of being born again-is to allow God to express Himself in us. What does this expression look like? It makes us look like our Father in heaven just as Jesus looked and acted like His Father. The Lord expresses His peace, His faith, His self-control, His joy, and most of all His love. One of the great keys to victory is coming to understand the new covenant. Under the new covenant God does not command us to be good. He becomes our Good. Thus we are free indeed.

    51Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
    52Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ John 8:51 through John 8:52 (NKJV)

    Again the Pharisees think carnally, Jesus spiritually. (Are we surprised?) They thought of physical death and life. Jesus spoke of spiritual death and life. Jesus did not come to set us free from physical death but spiritual.

    Death in God’s mind is not the heart stopping. It is separation from God. We see that separation in the Old Testament. Where did God live under the Old Covenant? He lived in the Tabernacle which was the house of God. Beyond the veil which surrounded the Holiest of Holies was the very glory of God. Only, there was a veil of separation. No one could go beyond that veil except the High Priest and He only once a year as a type of Christ. That veil represented sin and its consequences which is death-separation from God. What is death in Holiest of Holies talk? "You can't go in there!"

    The Hebrews also feared death would last forever-even for the faithful. There was separation even in death. Death reigned even over the Old Testament saints who had died. The Old Testament faithful and unfaithful did not go to heaven and the presence of God. They went to Sheol. It was a good place for the righteous, but even so there was still separation from God. There was not one human being in heaven before Christ had finished His works.

    Jesus died. He paid the price and consequences of sin. The veil was torn. Not only did He remove separation for the living, At the Pariousa He led the captives out of sheol into the presence of God. That is what Jesus meant that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. How then can we say the heavenly tabernacle is not yet here? How then can we be looking for Jesus to set up yet another earthly tabernacle in an earthly Jerusalem?

    All who believe will never die. Will never be separate from Him. Never have to fear being separate from God again. This is the death Jesus came to overcome and abolish. And we argue about whether our physical bodies will remain in the grave or become glorified bodies. That is not the point!! The point is that we now abide in the presence of God and His presence abides in us now and forever.

    Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
    John 18:36 (NKJV)

    21nor will they say, £‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
    Luke 17:21 (NKJV)

    The imaginings of the carnal mind are still around today. Yet, preterists are trying to present the kingdom as Jesus did. It is freedom from sin, the Devil, and death. All these things are readily available in the Lord's very present kingdom.
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States
    AMEN OP! Great post!

    You have a great way of making the truth of past fulfillment as plain as the nose on my face!

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