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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. Evan

    Evan Well-Known Member

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    Parousia 70,

    I have been been reading you posts on this subject for years in various chat rooms and discussion groups. I have read the books and have carefully thought out the matter. I have asked you what this verse means:

    2TI 2:17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
    2TI 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

    You explained that it meant that "at that time it had not happened yet, but now it has..."

    I think we need to take the Apostle Paul's warning very very carefully here. Is this full preterist theology "gangrene", and is it "upsetting the faith of many"??

    I still believe in the second coming of Christ.

    LUK 17:24 "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.

    This has not happened yet, although I have heard your position as well as the positions of the authors you recommend on this verse.

    I believe Jesus is coming back to earth in a great majesty of glory that is going to unlike anything the earth has every seen. You are teaching that this is false.

    I believe there is also going to be a future resurrection that is going to be equally glorious when we "we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1JO 3:2 You say this is false

    I would like to please caution everyone that this type of teaching was under heavy condemnation by the Apostle Paul. Now we are hearing that this condemnation is no longer applicable to us. Are we sure...I mean really sure?

    I am not.

    We need to be very very cautious here, we are under a cloud of severe warning by the Holy Ghost. These issues are not clear, eschatology itself is a very unclear theology of doctrine as all readily admit.

    Therefore to pass off the Holy Spirit's strong warning as N/A is indeed bold. I am not there....at all!
     
  2. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Wise counsel, Evan. Let me assure you that Christians who believe in the preterist eschatology do not simply "pass off" the strong warning in 2Tim 2:17-18. Conclusions are reached only after a great deal of time and study. I've been studying preterism for over two years now and I still have not clearly decided between full and partial preterism, so it is a process. Believe me, all preterists have been confronted with 2Tim 2:17-18 and none of us have taken it lightly. Christians believe in preterism because we feel it represents the teaching found in God's Word; Hymenaeus and Philetus did not believe what full preterists do.

    This was just a quick note to let you know that preterists really take this seriously and do not believe in it on a whim.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Evan,

    I am pleased you have chosen to take the time to study preterism over the years and humbled by the fact that I may have played some small part in spurring you to do so.

    Your question about Hymenaeus is a good one, but even you must believe there is a terminus to that "blasphemy", for after any proposed "future to us" resurrection, isn't it true it will no longer be blasphemous to say "the resurrection is past"? Remember, it's only blasphemy if it isn't true!

    Hymenaeus' claim that the Resurrection of the dead was "past already" before A. D. 70 was "blasphemy" (I Tim. 1:20), because if the Resurrection was "past already" that meant God's Judgment was past already and that God's chosen ones had already taken eternal possession of the Kingdom.

    Since God's old covenant and its Kingdom were still standing before A. D. 70, Hymenaeus' blasphemy was making the enemies of Christ (the 1st-century Jews who killed the Lord Jesus) the eternal possessors of the Kingdom of God. It was saying that the destruction of fleshly Israel and its temple was not going to happen.

    Look at it this way: It's A. D. 65 (about the time when II Timothy was written). The Hope of Israel is fulfilled. The Judgment is past. The Messianic Age has come. And Old-Covenant Israel remains. Therefore Old-Covenant Israel will remain forever. The reprobate and persecuting enemies of Christ, and their spiritual ancestors, are the legitimate heirs of the Kingdom and are the true sons of God (Dan. 7:22).

    That was a faith-overthrowing blasphemy (I Tim. 1:20; II Tim. 2:18).

    Futurists today who say, "The Resurrection did not take place in A. D. 70," are unwittingly (and in many cases knowingly) implying that the old covenant has not eternally vanished, and that its fleshly kingdom has not been eternally destroyed, and that God's chosen ones have not yet taken eternal possession of the Kingdom.

    This thinking has naturally led consistent futurists to believe that ethnic Jews will take possession of the Kingdom when the Church is dispossessed by the Judgment of God in our future.

    Consistent, thoroughgoing futurism therefore strives for the reconstruction of the old-covenant worship-system, since that system has supposedly not been eternally done away by the Judgment of God, and since the promises to Israel's fathers (which included the hope of the Resurrection) have supposedly not yet been fulfilled.

    Consistent futurism (hyper-dispensationalism), with its dislocated Resurrection as its root error, is very similar to the faith-overthrowing blasphemy of Hymenaeus. One might even call it Neo-Hymaneanism.

    The realization that the resurrection is past did not destroy my faith at all, in fact it cemented it! I am now absolutely certain that my faith is correctly placed, for I believe in a God that can be trusted to do exactly what He says He'll do, exactly when He says He'll do it.

    In actuality, it was the "postponement theology" of futurism that was destroying my faith before my acceptance of the truth of past fulfillment restored it.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  4. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day Evan :wave:

    Here's a further thought: if Hymenaeus and Philetus were able to over throw the faith of some with there message [even though false] it somehow carried enough credence to do so.

    Is it possible that first century believers expected the Lords return to be something other than an "end-of -the-world" creation burning, time ending event, which is the traditional futuristic expectation today. If that's what they were expecting back then, how was it at all possible that one's faith was over thrown? -someone simply had to say "look out side, nothing has changed, the graves are in tact and we're all still here -who's been taken?"

    What Paul challenges is Hymenaeus and Philetus' timing with regards to the resurrection, not its nature. We see a similar reaction over in 2Thess 2:1-2 where some of the Thesalonians believed that the Day of the Lord had already come.

    2Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

    How was it possible for them to be so "rattled" IF the Day of Christ was a creation-time ending event -it just doesn't gel -the "end-of-the-world" was none other than the ending of the Old Covenant world of Judaism, that's what was growing old and ready to pass away. If the "restoration of all things" included the retention of the old covenant then salvation was no longer by "grace alone," but also dependant upon works of righteousness i.e., the Law -thus annulling Christ's sacrifice. Most of Paul's admonitions were against this very issue of "reversion" seeking to mix Law with Grace -like oil and water, it doesn't work. And THAT [reversion] was overthrowing the faith of some.

    davo
     
  5. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

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    Bulwark,

    If I may be allowed, I would like to throw my two cents worth in here. I read your posts about the book of Revelation. As you know, the view you present is one of the various historistic views of the book of Revelation. There are four major schools of thought concerning how this book should be interpreted. They are the futurist, historistic (which views Revelation as an unfolding of all of history), idealist, and preterist.

    Ultimately, the historistic and futurist views run into to a problem with the statements in the book of Revelation, the gospels, and the epistles that imply that Jesus' return was very soon. For example:


    1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NKJV)

    7“Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
    Revelation 22:7 (NKJV)

    12“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. Revelation 22:12 (NKJV)

    20He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
    Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
    Revelation 22:20 (NKJV)

    These are just a few. There are scores of them in both the gospels and in the epistles. If you would like a comprehensive study of these statements, I would recommend you get a copy of James Stewart Russell’s “The Parousia.” It is available in its entirety online.

    However, I believe there is an even greater issue at stake in these views. I believe there have been two great lies that have kept the church from experiencing the fullness of the kingdom of God. One is that we have to earn the kingdom through self-righteousness. The second is found in the simple phrase “not yet.” We can’t have the kingdom, because it is not yet time.

    While the historistic view is a little more optimistic than the futurist, it still says “not yet” concerning the kingdom. The preterist view takes away the "not yet" concerning the kingdom.

    The preterist view looks complex. Greek word studies, studies of history and culture, systematic studies of the scriptures abound among the preterists. I think this is one of the viewpoints strong points. None of the other major views has near the scholarship of the preterist view. Preterists submit that Christ has already returned. However, ultimately the preterist view will settle once and for all in your heart three simple truths. One, the Devil is defeated. Two, through Christ you are in God’s presence and God’s presence is in you. Three, Jesus stands today as King and Lord over all the nations of the earth, therefore His kingdom is a present reality.
     
  6. davo

    davo Member

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    Ozarkpreterist, isn't that the TRUTH!! :clap: Brilliant!

    davo
     
  7. Evan

    Evan Well-Known Member

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    Parousia70,

    Yes, that is how you explained it to me a few years ago as well. But I'm telling you that I think the warning by the Holy Spirit is more serious than you are taking it.

    I believe what Paul was saying is "this ain't it", we haven't arrived yet. To say that we have arrived upsets the faith of many. There is a glorious resurrection that we all have a great interest in and hope for and we constantly need to look forward to it.

    To take this hope away from a Christian does much damage, it works like gangrene and it eats up their spiritual life. There is much caution to heed here!
     
  8. stnkyminky

    stnkyminky Trying to stay on the narrow road

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    Agreed.

    Could the word generation mean something else? Did it mean the same then as it does now?


    I didn't think we would sin in the new world/heaven. Look at the world around you.

    Why are there so many "religions" other than Christianity then being practiced? Why are there satan worshippers here?

    When we got to heaven I thought we were going to have a feast....I didn't get an invitation.

    If we've already made the first cut, why are people today being saved?

    I think you've made it apparent how you feel about Jesus's return, but what else do you believe?

    Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God? The only Son?
    Do you believe that Jesus is the only way to God?


    something just doesn't smell right..........
     
  9. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day stnkyminky :wave:

    Have you considered, or what is your answer to the presence of evil, and sin filled people in the New Heaven and New Earth -note this is the New Heaven and Earth, NOT the Millennium. This is the supposed re-created world that "futurists" say is sinless and perfect, with nothing bad. How do you explain the following:

    1) Rev 22:2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Healing presupposes SICKNESS which presupposes SIN -and ALL this in the final abode of ETERANAL BLISS. -and if it doesn't, please explain HOW.

    2) Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

    How do YOU account for these "bad evil people," from whence do they come, how do they come to be in this physical New Creation of "futuruism" which as YOU say comes at the final end -AFTER EVERYTHING??? –no more devil, no more sin, no more tears etc etc. Again, this CAN NOT be explained away as the millennium, as this is Rev 22 it is THE END.

    What are your thoughts on this??

    davo
     
  10. What more can I add Ozarkpreterist well said brother. :clap:
     
  11. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    If I may.. these people come for the masses of beleivers who survived the Great Tribulation.. and form their offspring.

    Up to the tribulation, all Christians, will be raptured, and transfigured as Chrsit was, into a new sinless existance. Afte rthis, those who are left, have two paths: the same two paths as before: aceept God or not. Those who do not.

    There will be survivors of the Teibulation, and they will be as wear enow: normal imperfect humans. They will have kids, etc.

    And, as it was with us, during thier life on the new earth, they will be subject to temptation, and given the chance of salvation as we were.
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    As a preterist, I look forward to recieving my resurrection body the moment I shed this earthly one.

    That is why it's called "the resurrection of the dead" you have to be dead to be resurrected.

    "It is appointed for men once to die, and after this the judgement"

    We all have an appointment with physical death.

    My hope is in Jesus Christ, (isn't yours?) and I just don't understand how you can assert that preterism destroys that hope.

    Like I said, for me, it only served to cement it.
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Zone, thanks for joining the discussion.

    My question about the above coment would be this:

    Is there a terminus for them? or does this reality continue forever in the New H&E?

    Do these "survivors" as you call them, and their offspring in the New H&E, continue to procreate and choose to accept or reject Christ generation after generation forever, or will God finally put a stop to it at some point?

    Thanks,
    P70
     
  14. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    From what i have learned in my studies.. the timeline goes something like this:

    Rapture comes, Christians leave.

    Tribulation starts, and new Christians appear.

    At the end of the Tribulation, ther eis a great war.

    Those who are alive on earth, Christian and "non-Christian" will remain on earth after the Tribulation. Although I doubt anyone will be a non-Christian at this time... :)

    From these, the human race will beign to re-populate the earth.

    The earth at this time, after the judegment is re-made to the state it was prior to when sin entered into the world.

    One thing I have yet to resolve is wethe ror not those who are alove on the eareth at this time, are forgiven of thier sin or not.

    This existance will goon for 1000 years... the population will grow (probably like we have never seen before since I do not thikn there will be war or disease, etc...

    Toward the end of this 1000 years, Satan is agian let loosed for a short time, to temp those who have not yet recieved thier glorified bodies, and who are still alive ojn this new earth.

    They will be tempted as we were, and will need ot make a choice to accept of reject God.

    After this, God will grant those who accepted him with glorified bodies, and the rest will be sent to "the second death".. the lake of fire.

    The dead saints are judged, and the raptured Christians are judged at the Bema(sp) seat judgement. They both recieve glorified bodies and are no longer found with a sin nature.

    The dead sinners are judged in the Great White Throne Judgement.

    Satan will the be forever bound and the only "humans" left will be sinless and perfect.
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Zone,

    I think you confuse the "millennium" or "thousand years" with the "New Heavens and Earth".

    They are not synonymous.

    The thousand years begin and end, the Judgement ocourrs, and death and Satan are thrown into the Lake of Fire before the "New Heavens and Earth" arrive.

    In light of this fact, how would you now explain the presence of sinners and Evil on the "New H&E"?

    Thanks,
    P70
     
  16. You better believe it brother. For example.

    The literal High Priest ( Zechariah 6:11).
    The spiritual High Priest (Hebrews 9:11).

    The literal priesthood (Exodus 40:15).
    The spiritual priesthood (1Peter 2:9).

    The literal temple (Matthew 24:1).
    The spiritual temple (1 Corinthians 3:16; Revelation 21:22).

    The literal sacrifice (Leviticus 23:12).
    The spiritual sacrifice (John 1:29; Romans 12:1).

    The literal holy of holy ( Exodus 26:33).
    The spiritual holy of holy (Hebrews 9:24;10:18-21).

    The literal Israel (Exodus 1:7).
    The spiritual Israel (Galatians 6:15-16).

    The literal mountain (Exodus 19:1-25).
    The spiritual mountain (Hebrews 12:18-29.

    The literal descendants of Abraham ( John 8:33).
    The spiritual descendants of Abraham (Galatians 3:29-29).

    The literal land (Joshua 11:23).
    The spiritual land (Hebrews 11:8-10).

    The literal city of Jerusalem (Matthew 21:100.
    The spiritual city of Jerusalem (Galatians 4:26).

    The literal coming of the Lord to Israel (Luke 2:25-52. The spiritual coming of the Lord to Israel (Matthew 26:26-64).

    As the writer of Hebrews states the law, or old covenant, was a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things. So yes bible prophesy stretched from physical Israel into spiritual Israel (the church) as we see. :)
     
  17. Hi Evan Christians have no need to hope for resurrection. Why? Because Jesus said those who believe on him would never did. In other words those who have eternal life have on need of resurrection life. It isn't that what the Bible says is so difficult to understand; a child can comprehend these word of Jesus.

    Death to God is separation from Him therefore Christian have no need of resurrection because they are in his very presence. Under this New Covenant we enjoy the abolition of death.(1 Cor. 15:56) Where there is no death there is no need for resurrection. :clap:
     
  18. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    My mistake.. you are correct, that the Jefdgments do take place after the 1000 year reign.

    I will edit my timeline above ...

    either way, to answer your question.. the poeple populating the planet at this time are those who were not raptured, and survived the Tribulation.
     
  19. No wrong answer. :( These is no mentioned of any Great Tribulation or rapture in that verse. We must be very carfull. The Bible warns us not to add any thing.
     
  20. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Umm.. what verse?

    I am using the book of revelations (and others as a source together.)

    The Rapture most certianly will happen. The Tribulation most certainly will happen. These are events detailed in scripture. NOt sure what "verse" you are tlkaing baout.. and I wasn't "adding", sense I was not sure pof a particular verse in the first place to add to.
     
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