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Presbyterian Church Leaders Declare Gay Marriage Is Christian

Discussion in 'Semper Reformanda' started by St_Worm2, Jun 19, 2014.

  1. AphroditeGoneAwry

    AphroditeGoneAwry Well-Known Member

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    That is right, Hallelujah! Jesus commands me to love my neighbor as myself after all! That means I can love all my neighbors with my body, amen? Since my body is God's temple of love.


    I love loopholes!!!
     
  2. Calvinist Dark Lord

    Calvinist Dark Lord Regular Member

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    i'm sorry, it is the historical and scriptural record. Based on the view of the bible and the contempt for the words of scripture that you appear to be presenting, you can't even be certain that Jesus even existed let alone saved anyone...which brings up an interesting logical dilemma...If Hell and torment does not exist, what does anyone need a saviour for?
     
  3. OliviaMay

    OliviaMay Well-Known Member

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    To save us from ourselves. Jesus is the model for how to behave.
     
  4. Calvinist Dark Lord

    Calvinist Dark Lord Regular Member

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    M'kay...i think. However, if i'm reading you correctly (and it could be that i'm not, i detect a tincture of sarcasm there), what you're calling love, God declares to be sin.
     
  5. Calvinist Dark Lord

    Calvinist Dark Lord Regular Member

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    Why worry? You just claimed that there was no hell or torment? What is the penalty here? We won't get into the idea that Jesus was executed as a sacrifice for sin...something he has decidedly NOT called any of us to do.
     
  6. OliviaMay

    OliviaMay Well-Known Member

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    I am not worried. Jesus was executed for teaching true morality. People who follow his lead today are also persecuted. Bigots who claim to be Christian are quite hate filled and are always looking to attack.
     
  7. Calvinist Dark Lord

    Calvinist Dark Lord Regular Member

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    LOL, who writes your material? Jesus was executed as a sacrifice for sin. God HATES sin. Sin requires death. Christ died for sinners. And for the record, plenty of people who don't follow Jesus are persecuted. So that persecution thingy really doesn't mean much of anything. Morality has never saved anyone, only God saves people.

    i'm still waiting on you to tell me what you're saved from if there is no hell or eternal torment.
     
  8. OliviaMay

    OliviaMay Well-Known Member

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    I write my material.

    All life dies. That is what life does. Here on earth anyways. Jesus brought the teaching of the best way to live. All that magic stuff was because people back then believed in magic so much. The magic parts are not what is actually important. The message of love and kindness and forgiveness is what is important.
     
  9. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Indeed. The problem is that the definitive guidance said “… these actions shall not be used to affect negatively the ordination rights of any United Presbyterian deacon, elder, or minister who has been ordained prior to this date.” The right to be called to and installed in a position is one of the most basic ordination rights. It’s very unlikely that the GA had intended to create a class of people who were ordained but couldn't be installed. (The decision wasn’t made by the GA, but by a Permanent Judicial Commission operating at the GA level.)

    At that time there were three positions: pastor, associate paster and assistant pastor. I believe co-pastors were two full pastors serving together. Since then the position of assistant pastor has been removed. As far as I know, you can still have co-pastors. The assistant pastor was a position that didn’t involve a congregational vote. The Session could call them directly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2015
  10. JM

    JM Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Olivia, you need to check yo' self be4 you wreck yo' self. That post modernist rhetoric is ungodly.

    As for when so and so came out, when was the synod ruling made, etc. That's just nonsense promoted by unbelievers posing as Christians to ignore the clear scriptural prohibitions against homosexuality.
     
  11. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Sorry, but mainline PCUSA theology isn’t the hippy Jesus who is all for love with no accountability.

    Jesus’ definition of the Gospel is that he is establishing the God’s rule on earth now. That rule includes justice as well as love. And people are responsible for how they respond to his message. Jesus speaks about judgement a lot.

    His details appear primarily in parables, and they probably came from contemporary Jewish culture. So I don’t think we know the details. Did he believe in eternal torment, conditional immortality, a limited length of punishment, or what? Christians have argued endlessly, because he simply isn’t specific.

    But even though we don’t know the specific form it will take, punishment is a part of his teaching. It isn’t directed against people who have sex with the wrong person (except adultery) or who smoke or dance, or any of the other things that tends to be labeled “sins.” Jesus’ threats are against people who abuse other people, who deny their accountability to God by being unrepentant, or simply live lives unconcerned about others.
     
  12. JM

    JM Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God hates sinners.

    “The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.” (Psalms 5:5)

    “You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.” (Psalms 5:6)

    “God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day.” (Psalms 7:11)

    “The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.” (Psalms 11:5)

    “These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.” (Proverbs 6:16-19)

    “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:7-8)

    “A study of the concordance will show that there are more references in Scripture to the anger, fury, and wrath of God, than there are to His love and tenderness. Because God is holy, He hates all sin; and because He hates all sin, His anger burns against the sinner (Psa. 7:11). The wrath of God is a perfection of the divine character upon which we need to frequently meditate that our hearts may be duly impressed by God's detestation of sin. We are ever prone to regard sin lightly, to gloss over its hideousness, to make excuses for it. But the more we study and ponder God's abhorrence of sin and His frightful vengeance upon it, the more likely are we to realize its heinousness.” ~ A.W. Pink

    God loves those in Jesus Christ and only those, let the truth of this break our prideful, sinful spirits if we try to justify our inclinations to sin.

    Yours in the Lord,

    jm
     
  13. BryanW92

    BryanW92 Hey look, it's a squirrel!

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    If I didn't believe in "the magic parts", I'd be a Buddhist because their version of how to live better on Earth is much more detailed and better written than the "Just-a-Philosopher Jesus" version.
     
  14. OliviaMay

    OliviaMay Well-Known Member

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    Wait. You think Buddha was a better philosopher than Jesus? Wow. You spent way too little time reading the parts in red.
     
  15. SinnerInTheHands

    SinnerInTheHands Troubled Christian

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    I'll use the Geneva for dramatic effect:

    "Then shall he say to them on the left hand, Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels." [Matthew 25:41]

    "But the fearful and unbelieving, and the abominable and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." [Revelation 21:8]

    "And these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal." [Matthew 25:46]

    "Which shall be punished with everlasting perdition from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." [2 Thessalonians 1:9]

    "Wherefore if thine hand cause thee to offend, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched." [Mark 9:43]

    "As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, which in like manner as they did, committed fornication, and followed strange flesh, are set forth for an example, and suffer the vengeance of eternal fire." [Jude 1:7]

    "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When the good man of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye began to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us, and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are, then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the Prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out at doors." [Luke 13:24-28]

    "Though they dig into the hell, thence shall mine hand take them: though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down. And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence: and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them." [Amos 9:2-3]​

    As for the PCUSA allowing for gay marriage? It's indicative of their idolatry.
    "For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things. Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves: Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen. For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men left the natural use of the woman, and burned in their lust one toward another, and man with man wrought filthiness, and received in themselves such recompense of their error, as was meet. For as they regarded not to acknowledge God, even so God delivered them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient." [Romans 1:23-28]​

    "The trial of their countenance testifieth against them, yea, they declare their sins, as Sodom, they hide them not. Woe be unto their souls: for they have rewarded evil unto themselves." [Isaiah 3:9]​
     
  16. JM

    JM Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “A terrible crisis unquestionably has arisen in the Church. In the ministry of evangelical churches are to be found hosts of those who reject the gospel of Christ. By the equivocal use of traditional phrases, by the representation of differences of opinion as though they were only differences about the interpretation of the Bible, entrance into the Church was secured for those who are hostile to the very foundations of the faith.” ― J. Gresham Machen, Christianity and Liberalism

    Question, do "Mainline" churches promote Liberalism rather than biblical Christianity? Yes.
     
  17. BryanW92

    BryanW92 Hey look, it's a squirrel!

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    I said "if I didn't believe in the 'magic parts'". Take those out and Jesus is a liar or a lunatic or a fictional character created by a group of con men.
     
  18. Calvinist Dark Lord

    Calvinist Dark Lord Regular Member

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    The revelation from scripture is that we have a soul that is eternal. All that "Magic stuff" is the revelation of Scripture, Jesus attributed it to a sovereign act of God.

    If you deny that you call Jesus a liar and why you would believe the testimony of a liar is beyond my understanding.

    Based on what is discerned as your view of scripture...not just the parts in red, but those too...you can't even be certain that Jesus ever walked the earth because you aren't able to believe what he said. The bible does not give you the luxury of cutting out the parts you don't like and keeping those parts you accept. It is a unified whole. Deny part of it, you may as well deny all of it because it all depends on the other parts.

    And like it or not you're denying part of it. Because of that you really should not bother with this discussion. We for the most part believe that the Bible is the word of God, Inerrent, and completely true. We appeal to a higher authority than you are appealing to.
     
  19. rnmomof7

    rnmomof7 Legend

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    Does God love everyone?
     
  20. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I’m not going to be quite so quick to jump on you as some others here, because I’m not absolutely sure what you believe.

    But what I will say is that Jesus’ message about the best way to live was part of his proclamation of the Kingdom of God. The ethics in the Sermon on the Mount was specifically ethics of the Kingdom. Our forgiveness reflects God’s forgiveness. Love for our neighbor is based on love for God and God’s love for us.

    If you detach Jesus’ teaching from this basis of God’s rule and God’s love, you really don’t have Jesus’ teaching at all. And if you detach his love from his concern for justice, you don’t have it either.

    There are certainly agnostics who find selected aspects of Jesus’ ethics attractive. I don’t begrudge them that. I just want to be clear that what they’re accepting isn’t really Jesus’ teaching.
     
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