Presbyterian Church Leaders Declare Gay Marriage Is Christian

St_Worm2

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NBC News online (3 hours ago)
DETROIT — The top legislative body of the Presbyterian Church in America voted by large margins Thursday to recognize same-sex marriage as Christian in the church constitution, adding language that marriage can be the union of "two people," not just "a man and a woman.

The votes, during a national meeting in Detroit, were a sweeping victory for Presbyterian gay-rights advocates. The denomination in 2011 eliminated barriers to ordaining clergy with same-sex partners, but ministers were still barred from celebrating gay marriages and risked church penalties for doing so.
I'm sure they meant to write "PCUSA" (my former denomination) as this is a long time coming in their General Assembly (over two decades) . And as I said in Current Events, I wonder what will be rarified next , "Justice Love" or adding "Sophia" (goddess) worship to the Trinity .. :doh:
 
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hedrick

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union of "two people," is vague.

What does the new addition to the book of order say?

The article is confused. Two actions were taken.

One, with 61% voting yes, is an Authoriatative Interpretation of the Constitution, allowing gay marriage in states where it is legal. (It was already permissible to conduct civil unions.) There is a statement that no teaching elder or Session has to participate.

The second, with 71% voting yes, is a proposed amendment to the Directory for Worship, changing the definition from a man and a woman to "two people, traditionally a man and a woman." This has to be approved by the Presbyteries.

The authoritative interpretation is effective tomorrow. It replaces a previous one that prohibited any pastor from participating in gay marriage, but not in blessings or civil unions. An AI can't change the constitution. However the wording of the Directory appears to be based on the fact that civil marriage is between a man and a women. Since that is changing, it's conceivable to argue that a situation arises that is not covered by the wording. Since this is open for argument, it's possible that this will come to the Permanent Judicial Commission. But cases normally take a couple of years to get there, before which the vote on the constitutional amendment will have been finished.

In the past votes on this topic have been fairly narrow. That the proposed amendment got 71% suggests that things have changed enough that the presbyteries will approve the amendment.
 
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AMR

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NBC News online (3 hours ago)
DETROIT — The top legislative body of the Presbyterian Church in America voted by large margins Thursday to recognize same-sex marriage as Christian in the church constitution, adding language that marriage can be the union of "two people," not just "a man and a woman.

The votes, during a national meeting in Detroit, were a sweeping victory for Presbyterian gay-rights advocates. The denomination in 2011 eliminated barriers to ordaining clergy with same-sex partners, but ministers were still barred from celebrating gay marriages and risked church penalties for doing so.
I'm sure they meant to write "PCUSA" (my former denomination) as this is a long time coming in their General Assembly (over two decades) . And as I said in Current Events, I wonder what will be rarified next , "Justice Love" or adding "Sophia" (goddess) worship to the Trinity? We can only wait and wonder with bated breath for news of their next move .. :doh:
Indeed. Let us not confuse PCA with PC(USA).

Fortunately NBC updated the item:
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...eaders-declare-gay-marriage-christian-n136256
 
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St_Worm2

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The article is confused. Two actions were taken.

One, with 61% voting yes, is an Authoriatative Interpretation of the Constitution, allowing gay marriage in states where it is legal. (It was already permissible to conduct civil unions.) There is a statement that no teaching elder or Session has to participate.

The second, with 71% voting yes, is a proposed amendment to the Directory for Worship, changing the definition from a man and a woman to "two people, traditionally a man and a woman." This has to be approved by the Presbyteries.

The authoritative interpretation is effective tomorrow. It replaces a previous one that prohibited any pastor from participating in gay marriage, but not in blessings or civil unions. An AI can't change the constitution. However the wording of the Directory appears to be based on the fact that civil marriage is between a man and a women. Since that is changing, it's conceivable to argue that a situation arises that is not covered by the wording. Since this is open for argument, it's possible that this will come to the Permanent Judicial Commission. But cases normally take a couple of years to get there, before which the vote on the constitutional amendment will have been finished.

In the past votes on this topic have been fairly narrow. That the proposed amendment got 71% suggests that things have changed enough that the presbyteries will approve the amendment.

[FONT="Times New Roman
"]So did the General Assembly effectively say that "Gay" is "OK" for Christians or not .. :scratch: Or that the news agencies statements that gay marriage is now considered a "Christian" marriage by the PCUSA? Have they exaggerated anything, or did they get it right .. :confused:

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
[/FONT]
 
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dysert

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[FONT="Times New Roman
"]So did the General Assembly effectively say that "Gay" is "OK" for Christians or not .. :scratch: Or that the news agencies statements that gay marriage is now considered a "Christian" marriage by the PCUSA? Have they exaggerated anything, or did they get it right .. :confused:

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
[/FONT]
Here's the way USA Today writes it:
In two overwhelming votes, the nation's sixth-largest Protestant denomination approved the practice in the 19 states where same-sex marriage is legal and approved presbytery-by-presbytery decisions to change the definition of marriage from a man and a woman to two people.

The amendment requires approval from a majority of the 172 regional presbyteries, which will vote on the change over the next year.
My understanding is that there are two separate actions. The first, effective immediately, is that PCUSA ministers are now allowed to perform same-sex weddings if they so choose (in states where it's already legal).

The second action is occurring over the next year. During this time the regional presbyteries (whatever they are) will vote whether to change the definition of marriage -- majority rules.

Same-sex marriage is not yet legal in my state, so the pastors in my state have no decision to make yet. However, I'm uncertain what PCUSA's definition of marriage is *now* while the votes are going on.

If anyone can provide clarification on what the "regional presbyteries" are, or whether it's actually true that PCUSA has already redefined the definition of marriage I'd like to hear it.
 
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Least folks think their pet denomination is immune, let's take a long hard look at the following: List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In recent years some controversy on this issue is also stirring among Southern Baptists. The Church must address this topic, and take heed least she follow the masses. This is were cool, hip, politically correct, flashy, comfortable religion has led. How, how is it that sin is no longer sin? How is it that sin has become just the opposite? Are these signs of apostasy? How is it the religious apostates have come to represent majorities? Is this not a shinning example of the ad populum fallacy?

This is sad news, and also an example to never "follow" a denomination, this is not meant as a jab at denominationalism per say, but when we're in one, there can arise tendencies of what we might call "denominational pride", taking so much pride in one's denomination as to loose sight of Christianity as a whole, historically even.
 
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tulipbee

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Here's the way USA Today writes it:

My understanding is that there are two separate actions. The first, effective immediately, is that PCUSA ministers are now allowed to perform same-sex weddings if they so choose (in states where it's already legal).

I would think the book of order would reduce burdens. But it's also a big burden on the individual pastor cause it's up to the pastor if they want to perform the marriages. Now the individual is responsible. It's easier for the individual to say, sorry I can't perform such marriages due to the book of order but now the book of order puts the responsibly on the individual.
 
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tulipbee

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I would think it's automatically called marriage when two becomes one. Man plus women makes one baby. I would think marriage only applies to that. Man plus man makes no baby is man made marriage and don't think God don't care about man's own free will based on thier own sin. Marriage don't apply to man plus man so that kind of marriage turns or to the law of the land meaning a sort of legal contract or agreement between two parties. That kind of marriage has nothing to do with God's marriage so it's like children playing house full of imagination. The PCUSA is just playing house with the gays playing house or role playing. I don't think it bothers God cause man is roaming free along with thier sinful nature.

I look at a real marriage and a fake marriage. Real marriage is only posible with an egg and sperm.

Why do purposefully childless marriage called a marriage? Why are they obligated to stay married not wanting kids?
 
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hedrick

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I would think it's automatically called marriage when two becomes one. Man plus women makes one baby. I would think marriage only applies to that. Man plus man makes no baby is man made marriage and don't think God don't care about man's own free will based on thier own sin. Marriage don't apply to man plus man so that kind of marriage turns or to the law of the land meaning a sort of legal contract or agreement between two parties. That kind of marriage has nothing to do with God's marriage so it's like children playing house full of imagination. The PCUSA is just playing house with the gays playing house or role playing. I don't think it bothers God cause man is roaming free along with thier sinful nature.

I look at a real marriage and a fake marriage. Real marriage is only posible with an egg and sperm.

Why do purposefully childless marriage called a marriage? Why are they obligated to stay married not wanting kids?

The Biblical treatment of marriage is less single-minded than this. In various passages it is for companionship (Gen 2, Mark 10:8), as a protection against sexual temptation (1 Cor 7:9), for pleasure (Song of Solomon) and for Godly children (Mal 2:15). I don't agree with the traditional view that marriage can be justified only for production of children. I think this is the result of a negative view of sex, which is most clearly shown in Augustine's writing, and in the common rejection of the obvious meaning of Song of Solomon. All church bodies of which I'm aware sanction marriage of couples who for various reasons know they are incapable for producing children. Hence I suspect the use of this principle of being a piece of ad hocery used to attack practices that violate tradition.

I should note that this isn't just about gay marriage. It applies to other topics, such as masturbation and birth control.
 
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tulipbee

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The Biblical treatment of marriage is less single-minded than this. In various passages it is for companionship (Gen 2, Mark 10:8), as a protection against sexual temptation (1 Cor 7:9), for pleasure (Song of Solomon) and for Godly children (Mal 2:15). I don't agree with the traditional view that marriage can be justified only for production of children. I think this is the result of a negative view of sex, which is most clearly shown in Augustine's writing, and in the common rejection of the obvious meaning of Song of Solomon. All church bodies of which I'm aware sanction marriage of couples who for various reasons know they are incapable for producing children. Hence I suspect the use of this principle of being a piece of ad hocery used to attack practices that violate tradition.

I should note that this isn't just about gay marriage. It applies to other topics, such as masturbation and birth control.

So polygamy marriage has multiple temptations among multiple wives and it's better to narrow sex life to two people to avoid broader temptations with other people. What are they tempt into anyway? Producing too many babies?

Sex temptation is interesting. I never heard that one.
 
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hedrick

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So did the General Assembly effectively say that "Gay" is "OK" for Christians or not .. :scratch: Or that the news agencies statements that gay marriage is now considered a "Christian" marriage by the PCUSA? Have they exaggerated anything, or did they get it right .. :confused:

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

As far as I can tell, the headline is misleading. I don't believe the GA made any policy statements on gay sex or gay marriage. As far as I know, what they said was that in states where gay marriage is legal, PCUSA pastors could perform them.

I'm sure you're aware that members of the PCUSA disagree on whether gay sex and gay marriage are permissible. Neither the GA nor the constitution takes a position on this. The Authoritative Interpretation acknowledges that our pastors and sessions may object on Scriptural grounds, and respects that objection.

The Directory for Worship as revised would recognize Christian marriage between two members of the same gender, but not mandate it. I don't believe the intent of that change is to take a church-wide position on whether it is appropriate.

I assume you're aware that the PCUSA removed a statement from the Book of Order a couple of years ago. That statement prohibited ordination of gays. (Actually it prohibited ordination of anyone other than celibate people or people married to the opposite gender, but no one ever attempted to enforce it against anyone other than gays, and I don't think there was ever a serious intent to do so.) Again, this was not accompanied by a statement that gay sex is OK.

I'm not sure how much this distinction will matter. This seems to be an issue on which many conservatives aren't willing to coexist.
 
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hedrick

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Sex temptation is interesting. I never heard that one.

1 Cor 7:9: "But if they are not practicing self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion."

I don't believe this is about polygamy.
 
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